Transgender in Dragon Age Inquisition and Steins;Gate.

[The Lunatic]

I'm suspect of anyone who uses "hermaphrodite," a term that fell out of disuse decades ago. More importantly....

I'll have you know it's still very much alive in certain, rather more furry communities.


Anyway, as for Dragon age.

Honestly? All the portrayals in that game were awful. I don't really care to focus much on that of those who identify as transgendered, but, the whole "Look how LGBT we are" thing is just so worn on me at this stage.


I mean, for god sake, the game has a big buff guy, who is mostly shirtless, baring a leather harness, has horns, is bisexual, and is called "Bull". I mean, there's lazy, and then that's stuff like this.

 

[Redryhno]

Basically it says that gay relationships are sometimes thought of as strange, but not immoral anywhere. That seemed like a massive flaw in the worldbuilding which totally avoids the actually interesting story ideas of being gay (or choosing to have your Inquisitor be gay). That the entire continent agrees to this idea is very unusual, given how different all the cultures are, and how much of a role race plays in dividing people. Similarly, Krem felt like a huge missed opportunity to talk about the idea of being transgender.

I don't get this. How is a few distinct cultures being accepting of people engaging in homosexual acts some massive flaw in the worldbuilding? You are aware that before Christianity spread everywhere and inflicting its morality on everyone, such a thing wasn't exactly uncommon, yes? And that since the Thedas analogue for Christianity has no condemnation of such a thing, the modern perception of homosexual acts as carrying some inherent, historical stigma to it has little place in this fantasy world. In fact, Thedas should be even more accepting of homosexual acts than the pre-Christian world, since a more gender equal world would do away with the problem of the shame of being penetrated since it made you like a woman, since being like a woman carries little shame there.

I think his point was that in a world where your Race and Nationality alone determines so much(and don't say it's the same in the real world, it's to a much greater degree in DA), that gender identity and sexuality being largely ignored except for the stand-in for racist/sexist/etc.ist nation of asshats(Though even Dorian's quest is more about his dad not liking that he's not gonna make kids and give heirs than him being gay) is a bit of an oversight while making characters have that as the core of their character is a bit of a focus. See where the mixed signals idea comes in?

I mean, for god sake, the game has a big buff guy, who is mostly shirtless, baring a leather harness, has horns, is bisexual, and is called "Bull". I mean, there's lazy, and then that's stuff like this.

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but! FREDDIE PRINZE JR. HOW CAN YOU NOT LOVE THAT VOICE OF HIS.

Granted, I still think that he did a better job as Vega. Then again, I'm also in the minority of people that actually like and see Vega as a pretty good character.

 

[Redryhno]

I think his point was that in a world where your Race and Nationality alone determines so much(and don't say it's the same in the real world, it's to a much greater degree in DA), that gender identity and sexuality being largely ignored except for the stand-in for racist/sexist/etc.ist nation of asshats(Though even Dorian's quest is more about his dad not liking that he's not gonna make kids and give heirs than him being gay) is a bit of an oversight while making characters have that as the core of their character is a bit of a focus. See where the mixed signals idea comes in?

I perfectly udnerstand his point, I just don't think it's a very good one. The existence of racism and xenophobia does not necessitate homophobia, transphobia, or anything else not directly related to racism and xenophobia. That people think that gay people not being persecuted is some sort of oversight amounts to little than them declaring that they demand that a fantasy world adhere to their sense of how a world should work, even if they have to completely ignore why this isn't the case to do so. And, while it's nice to see that you've moved on from going on about how Dorian has literally no characteristics other than being gay, to consider it the core of his character seems misguided. It's the core part of his arc (in relation to that nation of asshats that we shouldn't count since it gets in the way of declaring things oversights), but I'd much more readily ascribe elitism or patriotism or failed father figures to his character than being gay.

Moved on? I still think it's the only reason he's even remembered most of the time...But hey, I couldn't bring myself to finish Inquisition, one of only like three games I've never actually completed, one of the others being because I was too young to understand the mechanics of and I haven't been able to find an NES or equivalent that will play it since, and the other being Trails in the Sky that I'm still going through but I forgot how fucking long JRPG's are. So maybe it, and by extension he, got better later on. But I've got no desire to play it anymore. Big waste of twenty bucks.

And while you're right, the existence of one doesn't mean the other can't as well, but considering there's a boatload of -isms floating around, it seems a bit of a weird world to live in that the color of your skin, the shape of your ears, whether you've got horns growing out of your head, or if you can fart lightning, piss fireballs, and shoot eye lasers can cause you to be KOS, but that someone liking to bang their genitals together with other genitals that look very similar to their own is considered a-ok and nothing to blink twice over.

I mean, I could understand party members or main characters not getting the same treatment because you're the BIG GORRAMED HERO, or even someone like Zevran or Leliana because they're both, at least in lore, some of the deadliest people to come across. But no, you can be killed, raped, and enslaved cause slant-ears. You can be Savant-syndromed because you get weird dreams. You can be relocated and left to rot because the Qun demands it. But nobody is even so much as given the stinkeye because they're gay in the world?

OT:

Also OP, if you liked Stein's Gate for that, you may want to look up Haganai and Yukimura, Nanana's Buried Treasure(I think that's the right one...), and maybe read ahead in Log Horizon for Tetra. None are exactly "true" trans, but they have their reasoning for how they act and dress.

 

[Ryallen]

I actually liked the depiction of Crimisius because its depiction of this sort of thing perfectly mirrored my opinion of transexualism: I just don't give a shit. I understand where everyone is coming from, I also maintain that there is no problem that cannot be solved by two people in the same party simply talking until one party understands and concedes, but I also believe that unless both sides are presented equally, there can not be actual discussion and debate with a legitimate conclusion. I've never seen Stein;s Gate, so I can't offer any sort of opinion on the subject of Ruka, and, if I was more inclined to have an opinion about things, I would say something of worth here about Crimisius. But, as I don't, I can't.

 

[Redryhno]

And while you're right, the existence of one doesn't mean the other can't as well, but considering there's a boatload of -isms floating around, it seems a bit of a weird world to live in that the color of your skin, the shape of your ears, whether you've got horns growing out of your head, or if you can fart lightning, piss fireballs, and shoot eye lasers can cause you to be KOS, but that someone liking to bang their genitals together with other genitals that look very similar to their own is considered a-ok and nothing to blink twice over.

I mean, I could understand party members or main characters not getting the same treatment because you're the BIG GORRAMED HERO, or even someone like Zevran or Leliana because they're both, at least in lore, some of the deadliest people to come across. But no, you can be killed, raped, and enslaved cause slant-ears. You can be Savant-syndromed because you get weird dreams. You can be relocated and left to rot because the Qun demands it. But nobody is even so much as given the stinkeye because they're gay in the world?

So, to you, it's weird that people are more concerned with what nation you come from, what fantasy race you are (this is sort of related to the first one), and if you can shoot fire from your eyes, but they don't care as much about who you're interested in having sex with? Despite the fact that I've already addressed reasons why they wouldn't be very concerned with it above, what with the no Christianity (or any Abrahamic religion) to declare it a mortal sin and no great sexism to make being like a woman in sex some horrible shame?

And, again, we're supposed to ignore that time there was sort of a big deal made over homosexuality. You know, the one where someone's dad tried to make his son hetero with blood magic.

So, which is it? You think it should be there for companion quests, or you think one form of prejudice shouldn't mean more things stemming from the same basic mindset?

And you really need to look up history again if you think it was all Abrahams fault...

Greeks as a whole enjoyed it, but it was more like a side activity, largely frowned upon as a lifestyle in the best of places for it, Romans copied them and took it to an extreme as they did most things they took from others. Thracians actually had a bit of a thing against it, Macedonia before Alexander's Father's era(give or take) weren't all that interested in anyone doing that. Many nomadic tribes up north in Europe considered it largely a disservice to the tribe to not keep their numbers up and more than a few decided to use them as supplies because obviously the gods sent them to fulfill that role and gave markers for it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Wow I completely missed that. Yeah...

I didn't. Unfortunately. I mean, common use in human medicine dates back to when "retarded" was still a medical condition and homosexuality was considered a mental illness.

To be fair and from what I can tell, they're saying that it was ignored in Origins, but then trotted out in 2 and Inquisition so it's not exactly contradictory. It's still wrong since you have to downplay the gay things that happen in Origins and exaggerate the gay things that happen in the latter games, but still logically valid.

I was referencing two different posters, who contrasted think two radically different things about the series.

Because remember, a gay author would only put in a gay character to show how progressive they are.

That's how us LGBT folks roll.

 

[Redryhno]

So, which is it? You think it should be there for companion quests, or you think one form of prejudice shouldn't mean more things stemming from the same basic mindset?

And you really need to look up history again if you think it was all Abrahams fault...

Right... let's look at history. Purely European history.

Dude, it's a game with a country of French accents that are known for chevaliers and are considered the masters of cooking and cathedral building that's always at odds with a country of English accents that have a culture that has bred dogs into "perfect" canine companions and have a royal family that traces their lineage back to a guy with a bastardized name of a sword that Arthur used before Excalibur. You've got nomads nobody trusts that have a reputation of stealing kids that ride around in colorful wagons from place to place with a strange culture nobody but they understand. You've got Spanish accents that are known for having the most powerful navy in the world.

I think European history is pretty applicable considering the only "non-European" presence is in the Qunari, and even they've got a mix of Russia and Poland in their largely Asian-rooted philosophy...

Not to mention you started it off by talking about how the Abrahamic religions were the sole reason homosexuality were considered "sins".

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, we could accuse people of being part of a conspiracy to try and catch us damnable SJWs by having us address contradictory arguments they pose. That seems like the go-to position to these sorts of situations nowadays.

Or maybe they just want to see us throw down. Let's indugle them.

YOUR AVATAR LOOKS LIKE KRANG!

I don't doubt it, considering what I've heard about gay people being political statements meant to push the radical progressive agenda and stifle creativity and freedom. That poor, gay fool probably can't even help putting gay characters in just to show how progressive they are.

Crap, that's too close to the truth that there's no such thing as LGBT and we've been faking the whoe thing to radically revise society to our wills. Who told? Was it Kate?

 

[Something Amyss]

Well if we're speaking of sins in the religious sense than sure, but if you're just using it as a way to indicate that people took issue with homosexuality than that's kind of patently false since I also pointed out how being seen as the woman of a relationship was shameful. That said, Abrahamic religions seem to play a pretty big part in it, what with the two big civilizations of western Europe having little issue with homosexuality before they showed up.

While intolerance to gays was not solely a Judeo-Christian thing, it is amazing how many areas were cool with it until these religions came along and taught everyone how "wrong" it was. And even that varies by era.

Part of the problem here is that a fantasy world doesn't have to have aidrect analogue to the real world, even if some parts are analogous. Or most of it. "I can believe in dragons, but not two dudes kissin" sort of stuff. But the other part is that people simplifgy history based on a very superficial understanding. This reminds me of the Assassin's Creed Unity argument that blacks and women in Revolutionary France would be ahistorical, a view I'm pretty sure arose from watching The tree Musketeers thirty times.

France was never going to be mistaken for Compton, but blacks have been effectively erased from France in popular culture.

Similarly, we think of the past as strictly homophobic and transphobic, despite having records of people and behaviour contrary to that.

Not to mention, we often impose modern morals on the past, anyway. Nobody (that I'm aware of) demands pederastry to aid in their immersion of a game in Ancient Greece or Edo-era Japan. Why? Because we recognise this as an abhorrent practice. Hell, people don't even notice the lackof smoking, generally speaking. So we're okay with modifying some behaviours, though others are "set in stone."

Oh and not only is your avatar soooo last month, but it's gonna get really fat from eating all that popcorn!

No, last month my avatar was of a gender-bending human turned into an alien killing machine. God, do your research!

It was Marv, who you never should have trusted because his name is Marv. Seriously, why would you ever trust... crap, we trusted Marv too!

Mwahahahaha. And you activated my trap card!

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Besides, I'll take the many trans people I've seen saying they're glad to finally have a trans character in a major video game who isn't a joke or a punching bag

I am. I think we're up to two, maybe three now. Crem, some random trainer from Pokemon X/Y, and maybe Flea from one of the Chrono games, I haven't played them to know. Four if you count the fact that Capcom has showed some effort to tame down the in-game mocking of Poison.

I think Saints Row is pretty cool too. I was able to play a nonbinary boss in 2, 3 and 4.

It speaks towards how ingrained hetronormativity is that the idea of a society which isn't hetronormative just blows someone's mind and is seen as impossible. There are and have been real societies in the real world that view and viewed gender and sexuality differently. You can do it with a fantasy setting too.

I haven't seen Steins; Gate but have spoken to Krem in Inquisition. And being Trans in Tevinter (where he is from) isn't that accepted. His dad was cool with it but his mother never was and never accepted him as a man. So Krem left, joined the army something only men are allowed do, was discovered and had to flee where he eventually met Iron Bull who saved him from being assaulted, losing an eye in the process. Not being accepted as a man is the main reason he left Tevinter and ended up joining the Bull's Chargers. Also it speaks towards Krem's character that he wouldn't want to use magic to transition which is kind of a neat character point.