Transgender in Dragon Age Inquisition and Steins;Gate.

[Something Amyss]

Oh no, I've learned it doesn't matter because they're lines of code and that we should just ignore what the OP said to pretend that he was referring to them as its and there was no misgendering the characters at all!

I saw. One actually sort of wonders why anyone would be bothered that they do add minorities, then. They're just lines of code! They could all be black transsexual lesbian furries, for all it matters. Right?

It seems like it should amaze people, but it's stopped by now. People getting offended that a non-white character, or gay character, or trans character even exists in some fashion, or that people dare want one to exist in some fashion have eroded my ability to.

A lack of basic self-awareness still will amaze me, even if I live to be ten thousand. Maybe not surprise me, but just dumbfound me.

Totally logical! Thank you my logic friend for this logic and reals instead of those feels and

Go in Logic, my friend.

I guess we'll just have to see, then.

Only Jux may question me, for he is also chosen of the Sarkeesitar.

I bet you didn't think we'd actually already discovered the third gender, huh?

Marv is a new gender?

Yep, no one ever questions the inclusion of the heterosexual white guy. Well, no one who's not putting feelz before realz and questioning why they needed a white protagonist for stories about Japanese civil wars or African conflicts or that recent movie about a violent revolution in some Asian country.

Yeah, it's really weird that Asia and Japan are apparently white, as well.

It's weirder when there's this moment of clarity: multiple times on this board alone, I have seen someone insist that they're not sure they could root/pull for or play as a character that wasn't like them. And more recently, there's the Rust thing.

Oh no. You might not be able to play as your race and/or gender?

The horror.

Yep, he's apparently a sexy spy who likes flirting with the sexy men sometimes. Which is, of course, gross because while everyone can biologically appreciate the look of objectively attractive women, you just can't do that with men, I guess.

Well, yeah. Evolution. Sexual dimorphism. Testosterone. Do you even science?

Honestly, I would think the capacity to seduce people regardless of their sex or gender would be a plus. It worked for Jack Harkness.

Well, as someone who was just told that if I want to criticize the Witcher 3 for not putting any of those unnecessary non-whites into the game (though, as I've said, I'm much more interested in criticizing the shitty answers to criticism), I completely understand the desire to want to write something like that. Granted I have such little drive to do things that I'm not required to do that I haven't outside of some roleplaying, but there it is. And, of course, I'd have to answer questions of why this or that character needed to be gay, or needed to be not-a-white-person-like-normal.

At the same time, it's really frustrating watching the same people complain that I, the "artist" chose to do something. Kind of like the accusations that Bioware was just trying to show off how progressive it was when a gay writer wrote a gay character.

And TBH, I really hope the LGBT community doesn't give them a cookie solely because "gay is shown to exist." Though I don't think that's the case here.

I'd just tell the people whining about what you write that if they have a problem with it that they can write their own stories where women don't dare do what men do because how dare women do something so unwomanly as whatever it is you're writing about.

I'm pretty sure that covers everything not directly involving making babies.

The big problem, of course, as with the Bioware case, is that the irony is lost on them. It's artistic license when it's convenient and only when it's convenient.

Hell, look at Hepler, who talked about what she wanted to see in games. Of course, that's different, because Dragon Age/Mass Effect is somehow not their series, but that of gamers.

Granted, she also indicated that women don't have time for silly things like combat when they're busy taking care of the menfolk, but that's still not a reason to lose your head.

 

[Erttheking]

I had a figure that this thread was going to go into an argument. You just can't bring up transgenderism without people just arguing about it. *Sigh* Haven't played Dragon Age Inquisition or watched Steins gate, so I can't comment. Still, it's nice to see this demographic getting some representation.

I guess I probably think that because I'm a filthy SJW who hates CIS-gendered white men even though I am one and can't stand freedom of speech. At least that's what someone somewhere is going to think. Whatever. I'm used to it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Maybe they've just learned how to read code and see real life images... like in the Matrix. Oh God, oh God, did I just uncover some glitch that makes me a target for the Agents, quick give me the Red Pill so I can understand the truth of the Machines Feminazi conspiracy.

Don't be absurd. The machines tried the Matrix years ago. They discovered cows were easier. Thus, the Mootrix was born.

You do't know thos, because SJWs have rewritten history.

Oh it's always dumbfounding how much self-aware beings lack self-awareness or simply refuse to be self-aware when such a thing becomes inconvenient. Kind of like how they'll cry censorship when one website bans communities that were flagrantly breaking site rules, and then demand that a group of people need to be punished on the forums for their horrible strings of random characters that translate into book quotes.

See, I can't imagine that happening.

<..>

I don't think I can! I didn't go to school for a STEM degree and I agree with feminists some times! Am I... am I doomed to never be truly logical?

Don't worry, I can still red pill you. You will learn to Logic!

Yep, a new gender we've been slowly weeding out because they're too dangerous to let be.

How do I know this isn't some of your pre-red pill tendencies talking?

Yep, and you'll never see the people who constantly go on about how it's wrong for non-heterosexual white men to want to root for and play as a character that was like them ever confront the people who insist that any game that doesn't star straight, white, male me is inherently worse. It's almost like there is this standard for one group, and a different standard for another...

Well, it might seem like a contradiction, but really, it's a single standard. People who are like me count.

I mean, honestly, I joke, but I sometimes wonder how this doesn't occur to people.

Well sure, but you clearly haven't scienced enough because everyone knows that only women can ever be sexed out of doing their jobs as enemy agents. Men's brains are just too real to stop being a threat just because you flirt with them a little. But, if you're a woman, you should still flash cleavage and wear as little as possible to be distracting during those fights, because everyone stops trying to murder you if they see a hint of boob.

Also, it doesn't turn me on (well, this demonstrative me) so it's icky.

Well, everyone knows that you're only really choosing to include a certain character when they're generic white guy and his sexy lady friends. Everything else is only included for the sake of progressive points, which will actually mean something tangible when we work out that deal with Flo from Progressive, but she's been hardballing us for awhile.

SJW car insurance? God, is there nowhere I can go? Geico is clearly pandering to the anthro community....

From what I can tell from my perspective as a non-LGBT person, it seems like it's simply the lack of other companies acknowledging them in any way that makes Bioware's acknowledgement of them both in their games and out seem cookie-worthy.

I think it's more that they're not screaming "LOOK! A TRANNY! LOL! SHE THINkS SHE'S A HE!"

My previous avatar is a gender-bending character, and the sole reason for looking like a girl appears to be a couple of gay jokes. It's a sequel to another series with a trans character who gets like one decent episode and is otherwise treated like a joke.

They're both ciswomen in the US versions. Or ostensibly cis in the case of my avatar, since they never bring up Dead's gender explicitly in the Ennlish dub. It's almost preferable to avoid the lolgay stuff.

The other example given in the thread sounds a lot like this.

And maybe this still comes down them getting praise for simply not doing that.

Well, again, it's inviolable artistic integrity to include lots of generic white people doing stereotypical, gender-normative things, but progressive agenda pushing for the sake of our totally-gonna-be-valid points system when you do something different. You might be able to distract them for awhile and let your progressiveness insidiously ooze into their brains if you dress up your female character like a stripper though.

Well, if I were ever published, I imagine the cover would do just that.

It's a shame they don't just make a list of these rules for us to follow, though. Like, life would be so much easier when I knew whether it was artistic integrity and when I was oppressing the masses bny doing what I want to do.

 

[Weaver]

Okay, why the hell does everyone like Steins Gate? It's even #2 on MAL. I watched it expecting to be blown away and it was pretty awful and tropey. If you've never read any science fiction book with time travel in it maybe it would be eye opening to you, but it was trite, cliche and pretty predictable. I can't believe I forced myself to watch the entire thing; I genuinely regret the weekend I took to watch it.

 

[Cyncial_Huggy]

They shove bisexuals and gays down your throat, so why not Transgenders?

 

[Redryhno]

Because, I happen to have this thing called a job(you may have heard of them, they seem to be sorta rare on the internet) where I just got "promoted" and had to be at work to get the next week's shipment earlier than normal. I didn't have the time to respond completely and addressed what I believed to be the more egregious error in your post first, but Thunderous has sorta taken it up instead.

If you don't have time to respond in any meaningful way, just don't respond. Don't pick some utterly inane error I made that is irrelevant to the overall point of the post and respond to that.

And honestly I like that storyline better, because it doesn't completely change what we were told about the Qun in previous games to add in a trans person that could've honestly just been random NPC #24759 for all the functions they serve, and also changes a trans backgrounder into a trans character with very tangible connections to the world that isn't just "Bull is good guy m'kay? He gave up eye because he good guy m'kay?".

So you like the storyline better because you have expectations about the Qun that aren't supported by anything other than your demand that they have an issue with trans people just because they for some reason need to? And the writer's actual canonical writing dared contradict your baseless expectations?

And as I said but you've apparently ignored, it was ok as a SIDE ACTIVITY in those great western civilizations. It was never really something that was accepted as a lifestyle. Hell, even the Romans with their love of orgies, leaded spices, alcohol, and drugs didn't really care for male-on-male/female-on-female sex all that often, and the few times it was was because Caligula was alive or it was someone in a higher station giving it to someone of lower station. Then of course there's the Greeks who had like thirty words for love that we have to continually add adjectives onto to even begin to scratch the surface of the meanings they had with them.

Oh no, Thedas is slightly different than the Greco-Roman world, the entirety of Bioware's world building has been compromised. Nevermind the point about how the sexism has pretty much been removed to take away the stigma of being penetrated and the point about how the biggest difference seemed to be a lack of concern over commoners continuing their lineages, best just repeat how the Romans weren't okay with an exclusively gay lifestyle some more.

No, I take issue with it because Sten in Origins had trouble coming to grips with a woman Warden, because women aren't soldiers, they're merchants, politicians,etc. they're the ones with the real power in the Qunari homeland, because only they are allowed access to the logistics required for their army to function.

The Arishok bends knee and listens to the positions only women can hold, when an Arishok is the highest position outside of the high Priest role, and even then a woman can hold that position as well.

And dude, did you forget that you were talking solely talking about the real world in that part I responded to? I wasn't talking about Thedas, so quit changing the subject in the middle of a conversation...Also, that penetration thing you were talking about is honestly only a part of the reasoning behind it, not the sole one as you keep talking about it being. You don't have nearly the grasp of history as you think you do, as you've gone from talking about Abraham being the one responsible for the anti-gay west, when there's numerous cultures that have had qualms with them before the guy appeared that had nothing to do with the penetration thing you keep talking about to now talking about TWO cultures that were far from united in the areas of control they both had. Both stretched for thousands of miles, millions of people, hundreds of cultures, and a billion different dialects. Neither had absolute control, they just had the heads of the countries they conquered under control, who weren't always able to police according to Rome's wishes. And with Greece being a laughingstock of unity if there wasn't a war going on considering all the city-states continually fought for control of resources and political power most of the time. Just as there's a thousand different ideas about Republicans and Democrats alone in the U.S. nowadays, there were a thousand ideas about gays. Very few of them actually positive.

All I'm asking, when it comes to the game, is that as much effort as they've put into the racism, caste system of the dwarves, hierarchy of the Dalish, the way the Wardens work, and even the roles of the human nobles and commoners, they could've put more effort into it than just going "SEXUALITY AND GENDER IS UNIVERSALLY MODERN UNDERSTANDING EXCEPT FOR THE TEVINTER ASSHATS, HATE THEM". It's lazy is what I take issue with, and the Dragon Age universe has gotten progressively more lazy with each iteration. I don't have a problem with those things being considered fine with certain people or even some countries really not giving a damn, but for all but one country that's already painted as the worst of the worst? That's lazy.

Though I suppose you could argue that Origins was lazy as well, but I'm honestly willing to forgive the stuff there because it was just starting the universe out and ambiguity is expected. But again, what was shown was a pretty generic fantasy land filled with prejudice for some people, some people not giving a damn, and yet some others that don't care themselves, but are afraid of the people that do have prejudice.

 

[wulf3n]

A more recent thing would probably be all the cries for "but Polish culture/history" in response to criticism of Witcher 3 on its lack of people who aren't pale, because a single non-white person would absolutely ruin it's Polish-ness.

That argument never really held water any way. In the novels there a numerous nations/kingdoms mentioned, and while most don't go into detail about physical characteristics, but there is one, the Zerrikanians, who are mentioned to have darker skin.

Here is a screenshot from the TV show:

They're also in the game... kind of...

Really the lack of diversity has nothing to do with trying to recreate an accurate europe/poland, or anything racist for that matter.

My guess, the game has like 6 character models that are reused over, and over, and over again. It's entirely a cost cutting measure.

 

[Redryhno]

All I'm asking, when it comes to the game, is that as much effort as they've put into the racism, caste system of the dwarves, hierarchy of the Dalish, the way the Wardens work, and even the roles of the human nobles and commoners, they could've put more effort into it than just going "SEXUALITY AND GENDER IS UNIVERSALLY MODERN UNDERSTANDING EXCEPT FOR THE TEVINTER ASSHATS, HATE THEM". It's lazy is what I take issue with, and the Dragon Age universe has gotten progressively more lazy with each iteration. I don't have a problem with those things being considered fine with certain people or even some countries really not giving a damn, but for all but one country that's already painted as the worst of the worst? That's lazy.

It's lazy, because why? Because a world where gay people aren't persecuted against enough is just inherently wrong and lazy and bad writing? That you need to have more than one society where they'll magically lobotomize you for being gay for it to be considered good writing? I'm sorry not everyone subscribes to the notion that persecuting gay people should be the assumed state of all fictional worlds regardless of the setting and daring to deviate from that is lazy writing. How dare a fantasy world exist where they don't have the bigotry you demand they have?

No, because they put so much work into all the other prejudice that it feels like there's something missing when you get comments for being everything but gay or trans.

It's lazy because they have only one country the bearer of all the bad in the world for the most part, Tevinter is the only ones with the problems when it comes to gay, trans, slaves, and a host of other things.

It's lazy because they've written themselves into a corner when it comes to plots because the only "bad guys" in the world are Darkspawn and Tevinter. The Qunari used to be some sort of threat, but then they rewrote some of the rules and made them not nearly as threatening and have turned them more into "Saviors" than anything with the exception of mages, but they're not exactly all that much better off in the current system.

It's lazy because instead of creating a character, they made a trans model and then just coded it as having the job of a random NPC from Origins telling you to come back later and to reinforce the "Tevinter bad, Iron Bull good" mentality of it all and called it inclusive. Take an actual chance and make Krem recruitable, for crissakes. Or at least give him some kind of backstory other than "Tevinter shitty place to live".

It's lazy because in a world where things as stupid as the shape of your ears relegate you to servant status for the rest of your family's lives in human or dwarven settlements, being gay or trans is just looked over as nothing important. It seriously limits conflict and plot that doesn't involve the fucking Chantry or Darkspawn at the center, and I'm sick of them being the only things in a world so very nicely put together.

 

[Redryhno]

No, because they put so much work into all the other prejudice that it feels like there's something missing when you get comments for being everything but gay or trans.

Well ignoring the part where these is comments on trans (it's just not too much because its a single side character who only really interacts with his long-time comrades or you and then there's his backstory) one form of prejudice does not necessitate others. Every prejudice existing simply because seems like worse writing to me, but then I think some sort of effort and creation is better than just deciding that this is how the real world is so that's how this fantasy world of elves and giants must be.

It's lazy because they have only one country the bearer of all the bad in the world for the most part, Tevinter is the only ones with the problems when it comes to gay, trans, slaves, and a host of other things.

So apparently the alienages have been done away with, the mages aren't persecuted, and that whole thing with Orlesian nobles getting to basically do whatever they want to the common people shouldn't be talked about? Simply because some other country is apparently everything you want in a fantasy world and is loathed?

It's lazy because they've written themselves into a corner when it comes to plots because the only "bad guys" in the world are Darkspawn and Tevinter. The Qunari used to be some sort of threat, but then they rewrote some of the rules and made them not nearly as threatening and have turned them more into "Saviors" than anything with the exception of mages, but they're not exactly all that much better off in the current system.

They rewrote nothing other than the expectations of people with little to base their expectations on. Though, apparently, a society where people are considered tools and where you're shipped off the moment you show any doubts to be "re-educated" and where mages are leashed killed if they are ever separated from their handlers are "Saviors" now.

It's lazy because instead of creating a character, they made a trans model and then just coded it as having the job of a random NPC from Origins telling you to come back later and to reinforce the "Tevinter bad, Iron Bull good" mentality of it all and called it inclusive. Take an actual chance and make Krem recruitable, for crissakes. Or at least give him some kind of backstory other than "Tevinter shitty place to live".

So once again we come to the idea that if a minority character is to be included in a game they must jump the hurdles and can't ever just be. A trans character needs to have some expanded role and a great backstory or else its bad writing. Meanwhile, no one else seems to need to be recruited or some deep backstory to be considered something other than a black mark on the writers.

It's lazy because in a world where things as stupid as the shape of your ears relegate you to servant status for the rest of your family's lives in human or dwarven settlements, being gay or trans is just looked over as nothing important. It seriously limits conflict and plot that doesn't involve the fucking Chantry or Darkspawn at the center, and I'm sick of them being the only things in a world so very nicely put together.

So it's lazy because people are more concerned with races that are physically different than them than who you have sex with? Is removing the persecution gay people face such a crippling blow to the potential conflicts and plots of a world filled with political intrigue and a magical dream world and demonic possession now? Because if you feel seriously limited by something like "the plot and conflict can't be about their sexuality" you should probably spend a little more time contemplating.

And, of course, we know exactly what happens when a conflict and plot involves a character's sexuality, lots of people whine about how the gay is being shoved down their throat. Not that that counts because they're from the bad country, that the gay guy whose plot involves his sexuality spends his time defending and being patriotic about.

I'm just gonna request this once, please read.

I never said the alienages don't exist, or the mages don't have shit to deal with, hell, in the part of hte post you sectioned off I even talked about those things. I said that there's only one place where there's problems with slaves, gays, and trans, and it's lazy to have one place be the odd man out when everything else has problems that affect a larger portion.

I said that it limits because there's alot of wars in human history that have sparked off innocuous things. the Trojan war over a woman stolen in the night, half of the 100 Years could've been avoided if it weren't for Noble houses having deep-seated dislike of one another as Houses, but not as people, there are a couple gang wars in recent history that started because someone got drunk and walked two streets too far out of their territory.

I mean, didn't Inquisition just start because some guy opened up the wrong chest he couldn't have known about? The Blights only start because the Dragons played god(honestly something not that out of the blue in the world)? The Arishok only invaded because Isabella's a stupid thief. Walter Peck did do the "right" thing by shutting down the containment apparatus because nobody had any idea of the problems having it on could bring.

All I'm saying by "limiting" it is that while demons are a lore problem, in Inquisition, you kill something like a dozen Pride demons by the time you get to Antiva, it sorta undercuts how dangerous they are. So we get to cut off demons as being threats, the Qunari are shown to "improve" the lives of alot of their conquered people, so off they go for the most part outside of the mages, and even some of them might actually be happier considering how some of them don't want to go through the Gentling, but still don't want to have a demon pop out of the ingrown hair on their thigh. Then we've got the Blight- oh wait unless they suddenly find another Arch-Demon, the next blight won't be for something like another hundred years at the earliest, meaning that they're no longer in the "Dragon Age". So many avenues of conflict are already cut off for the most part, either in the player's mind(because they're no longer a threat), or in the universe.

Dude, they rewrote some of the implications and the books they had in Origins, which doens't surprise me honestly considering how boring some of the other stuff Bioware redid in Mass Effect from the original ending was supposed to involve stars having their lifecycles sped up...

Also, you already conceded the point of real-world history having some sort of bearing on the fantasy world. So make up your mind on that.

And I never said everwhere needs to have all the prejudices, just that everywhere having the same views on one specific prejudice while having wildly different views on others is boring. Give Tevinter their slaves and Orlais their anti-slavery. Let Antivans not care about sex so long as it's good for everyone involved, and have the Fereldens sexually conservative in all avenues. Give Qunari their reproduction only sex, but give Rivaini their sex for fun.

What I'm asking for is for there to be a VARIETY of views even half as thought out and visualized as they have for the races and the mage/non-mage debate. I'm asking for them to not continue ot limit themselves by having Tevinter continue to be the "bad guys" of the world in all aspects while the rest has one thing they all fully agree on when they don't even follow their own advice for that one thing when it comes to other prejudices.

 

[Redryhno]

What I'm asking for is for there to be a VARIETY of views even half as thought out and visualized as they have for the races and the mage/non-mage debate. I'm asking for them to not continue ot limit themselves by having Tevinter continue to be the "bad guys" of the world in all aspects while the rest has one thing they all fully agree on when they don't even follow their own advice for that one thing when it comes to other prejudices.

And I'll just say that if having Tevinter be the one with the biggest problem with gay is some severe limit on them then they suck as writers. There is literally everything else they could do to make the world more grey to come closer to Tevinter's shade, just as there are ways for Tevinter to shown to be the victim of it's own hypocritical government of mage politicians obsessed with beating each other through any means necessary.

You have played through the last four years of Bioware games right? Do you SERIOUSLY think since they lost Karpyshian and crew that they have anywhere NEAR the writing capability they used to have in order to pull it off?

They've never been the best writers in the industry, but they did have a group of writers that when together worked VERY well through so many of the games that are now classics. Then when EA took over it turned half into a clubhouse for the people Hudson liked and screw the ideas of the rest and it was no longer a collaboration unless you were allowed in the meetings.

 

[Redryhno]

You have played through the last four years of Bioware games right? Do you SERIOUSLY think since they lost Karpyshian and crew that they have anywhere NEAR the writing capability they used to have in order to pull it off?

They've never been the best writers in the industry, but they did have a group of writers that when together worked VERY well through so many of the games that are now classics. Then when EA took over it turned half into a clubhouse for the people Hudson liked and screw the ideas of the rest and it was no longer a collaboration unless you were allowed in the meetings.

And, as bad as Bioware's writing might be, they don't seem to have reached the incredibly pathetic point of feeling limited because they can't center the conflict and story around someone being gay. Of course, when they did use it because they were only limited in the slightest of ways in that there's not some universal persecution of gay people, people whined about it and people insisting that the prejudice needs to exist and that it not existing is some incredible limit on their options for plots and conflicts don't count it because it involves the bad country.

Considering I never said it needed to be universal MULTIPLE times, have said MULTIPLE times that if they're going to have prejudice of races (which were originally brought together to represent countries of people) it feels like something's missing for there to be a pretty universal point everyone agrees on for reasons they for some reason don't take for their other prejudices, and have said MULTIPLE times that I never wanted something to be the central point of a person's character(as you have said multiple times, I take issue with alot of Dorian's character), and have explained MULTIPLE times my thoughts behind these that you've continually twisted to fit your view of what you want me to be saying, I have to conclude that you're only reading what you want from my posts, and damn the rest. Feel free to prove me wrong.

And once again, I am sick of seeing Tevinter being the whipping boy of Thedas in this issues. What I want is there to be some kind of variety in opinion, because the justification given is flimsy at best when taken in context with the other crap every country does in Thedas as well.