Transgender in Dragon Age Inquisition and Steins;Gate.

[Something Amyss]

This dark and gritty world where people die by the thousands of plague, racism, war, at the hand of religious fanatics... where superstition and religious half truths rule supreme is somehow MORE progressive then our own world?

That's an interesting interpretation, bu progress isn't a one-way street, nor is it a straight (pardon the term) line.

 

[Something Amyss]

Also the third bathroom thing is one of those things transphobic types bring up to discredit trans people when trying to ban us from the appropriate bathroom.

And the problem I have is that the idea of "trans options" looks fairly similar to that to me.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Also the third bathroom thing is one of those things transphobic types bring up to discredit trans people when trying to ban us from the appropriate bathroom.

And the problem I have is that the idea of "trans options" looks fairly similar to that to me.

Except that the idea of making everyone install a third bathroom to every building is so absurd it'll never gain traction, it's an attempt to erase trans existence. On the other hand having characters that can be trans, specifically player characters, adds to visibility, rather than erasing. Also remember not every trans person wants to be totally stealth at all times, to deny we're trans is to deny an important part of our life experience.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

This dark and gritty world where people die by the thousands of plague, racism, war, at the hand of religious fanatics... where superstition and religious half truths rule supreme is somehow MORE progressive then our own world?

Uhrm, only if you're reducing the whole culture to a single sliding scale of "progressiveness", which is simplistic in the extreme.

The world of Dragon Age doesn't feature a certain type of bigoted oppression. One kind. It features others; it's obviously worse in a dozen other ways. Why must they all go together? There's no damn reason it must reflect the real world in this particular way.

This is just people finding a lack of homophobia even less believable than fire-throwing devil-people.

This, right? We could do well to remember Ancient Greece, which was a hilariously bigoted place to live (women weren't people, all non-Greeks were savage barbarians, slavery was a good thing etc.) yet was totally alright with men having romantic and sexual relations with other men and even young boys. In fact, both of those were considered noble and beautiful things, especially the part which we'd class as pedophilia and sexual exploitation of a minor today.

The argument that DA:I is unbelievable because most characters are alright with non-heterosexual sexual orientations basically hinges on the fallacious idea that if someone is a racist they must also be a sexist, homophobic and all other kinds of bigoted. It should be obvious that being one type of bigot does not immediately make you all other kinds of bigot too.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Krem came off as one of the most genuine and real characters to me. Unlike some other characters, he didn't let his identity get to define him a la Dorian (though he has his reasons). He's first and foremost the soldier he always wanted to be and confidant to the man who saved his life. That's his character; him having breasts is just a part of who Krem is like his preference for using a sword or his humor.

I don't really see the problem. The Qun has always had a very orange and blue morality system where your gender is based on what you since your entire identity and personality is your job. A female soldier is a man, a male artist is a woman. Its always been that way since DAO. I'm not seeing the discrepancy here.

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

snip

Doesn't it then only okay because Krem fit into the warrior criteria, making his/her speech on how quanari are better fall flat because he/she has the muscle mass to be a warrior? I don't know much about transgender community but my guess trans women aren't necessarily act overly macho and trans men overly feminine.

Well no, since Sten introduces the concept of male-soldier/female-artisan to a female Grey Warden in DAO with a locked smaller build. Also I don't think I'm understanding the second part of your sentence. Krem being "manly" or not is totally within his rights. He can act however he wants.

 

[JustAnotherAardvark]

Doesn't it then only okay because Krem fit into the warrior criteria, making his/her speech on how quanari are better fall flat because he/she has the muscle mass to be a warrior?

Or you can just accept the Qun is one of Bioware's more half-assed ideas and leave it at that.

 

[Redryhno]

This dark and gritty world where people die by the thousands of plague, racism, war, at the hand of religious fanatics... where superstition and religious half truths rule supreme is somehow MORE progressive then our own world?

Uhrm, only if you're reducing the whole culture to a single sliding scale of "progressiveness", which is simplistic in the extreme.

The world of Dragon Age doesn't feature a certain type of bigoted oppression. One kind. It features others; it's obviously worse in a dozen other ways. Why must they all go together? There's no damn reason it must reflect the real world in this particular way.

This is just people finding a lack of homophobia even less believable than fire-throwing devil-people.

This, right? We could do well to remember Ancient Greece, which was a hilariously bigoted place to live (women weren't people, all non-Greeks were savage barbarians, slavery was a good thing etc.) yet was totally alright with men having romantic and sexual relations with other men and even young boys. In fact, both of those were considered noble and beautiful things, especially the part which we'd class as pedophilia and sexual exploitation of a minor today.

The argument that DA:I is unbelievable because most characters are alright with non-heterosexual sexual orientations basically hinges on the fallacious idea that if someone is a racist they must also be a sexist, homophobic and all other kinds of bigoted. It should be obvious that being one type of bigot does not immediately make you all other kinds of bigot too.

I am so sick of having to correct this, but it was not "noble and beautiful". A naked body at the peak of idealism? Yes, that was considered noble and beautiful. It was something to be admired and revered, but not something you fucked.

What you're talking about? It was considered a rich man's hobby, never a way of life and certainly never fully accepted as anything but something done every once in a while. Seriously, go look up the great Greek philosophers, there's more than a few instances of them fiddling with their students and having consequences because their family was higher on the totem pole. Largely the same basic principles have stood the test of time to the modern age, power + position + community respect = exploitation is possible.

Also, your second paragraph sorta falls apart because of one thing, or else I'd agree with it. Tevinter exists. It is largely the only place where EVERYTHING -ist exists in the world anymore. Ferelden and Orlais have problems with Elves,Mages are feared and locked away for the most part,the Dalish have some problems with Humans, Dwarves hate anyone that's outside for any amount of time, but Tevinter has become the end-all, be-all of -ism behaviors. Anti-nonmage, slavery, violent gendering, racism of the highest magnitudes, and a whole host of other problems.

Dragon Age already has that fallacious idea in it. The only difference is that there's not a variety of opinions or even "it's k for them to be that, they're dangerous"(Zevran, Leliana, Isabella, etc.), Krem's only allowed to do what he wants because he's under Bull's protection and the Qun had to stop being interesting in it being heavily restrictive but stable and free of some of the problems that plague other countries and socities into just being a boring, generic modern-day stand-in.

Honestly it would've been better if they'd just kept everyone in the dark still with the Qun, and just keep giving out tidbits instead of just explaining it in horrificly jumbled detail.

Doesn't it then only okay because Krem fit into the warrior criteria, making his/her speech on how quanari are better fall flat because he/she has the muscle mass to be a warrior?

Or you can just accept the Qun is one of Bioware's more half-assed ideas and leave it at that.

Well, yeah, I think everyone can agree on that for the most part, but it used to be a half-assed idea that was shrouded in mystery that you got little bits of, so you could theorize about it. Now it's just laid out for everyone, and it makes little sense.

 

[chikusho]

Being transgender is a state of being, not the sole and singular focus of ones personality. The fact that being trans is being portrayed as a normal trait, and not having it be made a big deal, is both important and necessary. Thus, good job Dragon Age.

 

[Silvanus]

Also, your second paragraph sorta falls apart because of one thing, or else I'd agree with it. Tevinter exists. It is largely the only place where EVERYTHING -ist exists in the world anymore. Ferelden and Orlais have problems with Elves,Mages are feared and locked away for the most part,the Dalish have some problems with Humans, Dwarves hate anyone that's outside for any amount of time, but Tevinter has become the end-all, be-all of -ism behaviors. Anti-nonmage, slavery, violent gendering, racism of the highest magnitudes, and a whole host of other problems.

And why must these things go hand-in-hand with homophobia? It's a fictional culture, for god's sake.

If we lived in a world in which left-handedness were considered bad or immoral, people would be here arguing that the same bigotry should exist in Tevinter. You're only noticing the lack of it, because it exists strongly in our world.

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

Also, your second paragraph sorta falls apart because of one thing, or else I'd agree with it. Tevinter exists. It is largely the only place where EVERYTHING -ist exists in the world anymore. Ferelden and Orlais have problems with Elves,Mages are feared and locked away for the most part,the Dalish have some problems with Humans, Dwarves hate anyone that's outside for any amount of time, but Tevinter has become the end-all, be-all of -ism behaviors. Anti-nonmage, slavery, violent gendering, racism of the highest magnitudes, and a whole host of other problems.

And why must these things go hand-in-hand with homophobia? It's a fictional culture, for god's sake.

If we lived in a world in which left-handedness were considered bad or immoral, people would be here arguing that the same bigotry should exist in Tevinter. You're only noticing the lack of it, because it exists strongly in our world.

Well yeah but not all of Tevinter is like that, it only exists in the nobility where they're really all gun-ho about trying to make the most powerful bloodlines. I don't know, I actually kind of liked Dorian's arc, even though no one else did. I can get behind a grown-ass person dealing with parents loving them and yet hating everything they are.

Outside of that you don't need to deal with it, and if you wanted a whole game of that, play the first two games, or ignore Dorian's side missions and you are GOLDEN.

 

[Redryhno]

Also, your second paragraph sorta falls apart because of one thing, or else I'd agree with it. Tevinter exists. It is largely the only place where EVERYTHING -ist exists in the world anymore. Ferelden and Orlais have problems with Elves,Mages are feared and locked away for the most part,the Dalish have some problems with Humans, Dwarves hate anyone that's outside for any amount of time, but Tevinter has become the end-all, be-all of -ism behaviors. Anti-nonmage, slavery, violent gendering, racism of the highest magnitudes, and a whole host of other problems.

And why must these things go hand-in-hand with homophobia? It's a fictional culture, for god's sake.

If we lived in a world in which left-handedness were considered bad or immoral, people would be here arguing that the same bigotry should exist in Tevinter. You're only noticing the lack of it, because it exists strongly in our world.

I'm noticing the lack of it, because there's only one place in this fictional world that's given everything, and they're a bunch of asshats. Every other country is a saint by comparison in this category. And it's LAZY. There's far too much focus on one country having crap in their borders when outside of the Alienage Elf start in Origins and the City Dwarf attitudes to the surface Dwarves, it's largely glossed over.

Give me as wide a variety of opinions(hell, even a few randoms that have problems with the party you chose to take with you, god knows Inquisition could use some sort of personality) as you get from nearly every other moral and ethical issue in the world.

Give a better explanation than "this is how it is". Give me HISTORY. Was there a Stonewall equivalent(I seriously hope not for a variety of reasons personally)? Was there a plethora of gay people in power in one of the countries and it became a natural thing that spread? Was there some kind of Chantry-involved thing(because they're a part of everything in this world because of course the Catholics are connected to everything.) that it was instantly an accepted thing? Is Antiva open about it like Zevran's "So long as it's good" policy? Is Orlais much like Leliana and all about just flirting with everyone and then what goes on behind closed doors is just left to the imagination? Is Rivainn as stoic as Duncan? What about the Anderfel Mountain people?

I'm asking for variety, because it's slightly more boring(and to a point limits what you can talk about/make fun of/draw comparisons in sidequests as DA has sorta done alot of since DA2) when there's universal acceptance of much of anything in a world where there's supposed to be a variety of cultures and countries that are all somewhat vying for power.

I'm not asking for there to be homophobia with the gay hunters rounding everyone gay and trans up. I've never asked for anything approaching that level that MULTIPLE people in this thread have told me is what I'm saying I want. Just that there's something slightly off when there's just one place that has it and it serves only as the indicator that they're a bad country. It's like using rape as an "THIS IS THE BAD GUY RIGHT HERE" indicator. It's lazy and something that has become far too common. Especially when everything else is largely glossed over in Inquisition when it comes to how people treat one another for arbitrary reasons when they aren't from Tevinter.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm noticing the lack of it, because there's only one place in this fictional world that's given everything, and they're a bunch of asshats. Every other country is a saint by comparison in this category. And it's LAZY. There's far too much focus on one country having crap in their borders when outside of the Alienage Elf start in Origins and the City Dwarf attitudes to the surface Dwarves, it's largely glossed over.

Give me as wide a variety of opinions(hell, even a few randoms that have problems with the party you chose to take with you, god knows Inquisition could use some sort of personality) as you get from nearly every other moral and ethical issue in the world.

Give a better explanation than "this is how it is". Give me HISTORY. Was there a Stonewall equivalent(I seriously hope not for a variety of reasons personally)? Was there a plethora of gay people in power in one of the countries and it became a natural thing that spread? Was there some kind of Chantry-involved thing(because they're a part of everything in this world because of course the Catholics are connected to everything.) that it was instantly an accepted thing? Is Antiva open about it like Zevran's "So long as it's good" policy? Is Orlais much like Leliana and all about just flirting with everyone and then what goes on behind closed doors is just left to the imagination? Is Rivainn as stoic as Duncan? What about the Anderfel Mountain people?

I'm asking for variety, because it's slightly more boring(and to a point limits what you can talk about/make fun of/draw comparisons in sidequests as DA has sorta done alot of since DA2) when there's universal acceptance of much of anything in a world where there's supposed to be a variety of cultures and countries that are all somewhat vying for power.

I'm not asking for there to be homophobia with the gay hunters rounding everyone gay and trans up. I've never asked for anything approaching that level that MULTIPLE people in this thread have told me is what I'm saying I want. Just that there's something slightly off when there's just one place that has it and it serves only as the indicator that they're a bad country. It's like using rape as an "THIS IS THE BAD GUY RIGHT HERE" indicator. It's lazy and something that has become far too common. Especially when everything else is largely glossed over in Inquisition when it comes to how people treat one another for arbitrary reasons when they aren't from Tevinter.

Do you find it equally inexplicable that there's no background given on why there's no prejudice against the left-handed? Those with brown eyes? Long-haired people?

 

[Redryhno]

Do you find it equally inexplicable that there's no background given on why there's no prejudice against the left-handed? Those with brown eyes? Long-haired people?

To a point,since you're pointing it out, yes, but not the same extent. Thedas is heavily European-inspired, the Chantry as I said are just gender-swapped Catholics, etc.

So yeah, but there's a bit of a difference, and you know it. You'd think there'd at least be side character funny comments with some of the hairstyles being impractical considering there's alot of it going on, but, there's been a precedent set by years of RPGs and impracticality being overlooked. Brown hair's pretty much the most common color there, so that'd honestly be sorta strange to begin with as it's not a heavy minority like alot of prejudices, maybe if you'd said red, or even white that wasn't attached to old age considering. And left-handedness is honestly the only thing you've got that might actually be something, but then you've got to remember there's only something like four models in the game, all of them right-handed, so having a lefty in the first place would require more work than a couple extra lines and the animation.

Like honestly, the only thing as life-defining as being gay(and honestly it's not that life-defining, just sex partners and family expectations of lineage), that you've put forth, is being left-handed. As I said, give me a better reason than "this is how it is" or at least something other than simply that.

 

[Silvanus]

To a point,since you're pointing it out, yes, but not the same extent. Thedas is heavily European-inspired, the Chantry as I said are just gender-swapped Catholics, etc.

Inspired, so there's no earthly reason they must reflect them in every respect. There's a huge list of differences between the two.

So yeah, but there's a bit of a difference, and you know it. You'd think there'd at least be side character funny comments with some of the hairstyles being impractical considering there's alot of it going on, but, there's been a precedent set by years of RPGs and impracticality being overlooked. Brown hair's pretty much the most common color there, so that'd honestly be sorta strange to begin with as it's not a heavy minority like alot of prejudices, maybe if you'd said red, or even white that wasn't attached to old age considering. And left-handedness is honestly the only thing you've got that might actually be something, but then you've got to remember there's only something like four models in the game, all of them right-handed, so having a lefty in the first place would require more work than a couple extra lines and the animation.

They're all utterly arbitrary characteristics on which to judge somebody. In that respect-- the only one that matters, if we're discussing prejudice against them-- they're equivalent.

 

[Redryhno]

To a point,since you're pointing it out, yes, but not the same extent. Thedas is heavily European-inspired, the Chantry as I said are just gender-swapped Catholics, etc.

Inspired, so there's no earthly reason they must reflect them in every respect. There's a huge list of differences between the two.

So yeah, but there's a bit of a difference, and you know it. You'd think there'd at least be side character funny comments with some of the hairstyles being impractical considering there's alot of it going on, but, there's been a precedent set by years of RPGs and impracticality being overlooked. Brown hair's pretty much the most common color there, so that'd honestly be sorta strange to begin with as it's not a heavy minority like alot of prejudices, maybe if you'd said red, or even white that wasn't attached to old age considering. And left-handedness is honestly the only thing you've got that might actually be something, but then you've got to remember there's only something like four models in the game, all of them right-handed, so having a lefty in the first place would require more work than a couple extra lines and the animation.

They're all utterly arbitrary characteristics on which to judge somebody. In that respect-- the only one that matters, if we're discussing prejudice against them-- they're equivalent.

I said HEAVILY for a reason.

Most of the differences you're talking about come from two categories, names and geography. Neither of which have ever been the most accurate in terms of fiction or needed to get the idea across.

Also, again, differences here and you know it. How many gay people are there in the world? Now tell me how many people with brown hair there are in the world. The numbers are going to be heavy on the brown hair people if you obviously make it down to brown hair versus gayness. Both are arbitrary, but gayness is going to have less people in it. As such, it's easier for people to grumble about them and not get shit for it. I mean, that's normally how those arbitrary prejudices come about in the first place, you know that just as well as I do.

 

[Silvanus]

I said HEAVILY for a reason.

Most of the differences you're talking about come from two categories, names and geography. Neither of which have ever been the most accurate in terms of fiction or needed to get the idea across.

They also have different histories and religions, which are primary factors in determining culture.

Also, again, differences here and you know it. How many gay people are there in the world? Now tell me how many people with brown hair there are in the world. The numbers are going to be heavy on the brown hair people if you obviously make it down to brown hair versus gayness. Both are arbitrary, but gayness is going to have less people in it. As such, it's easier for people to grumble about them and not get shit for it. I mean, that's normally how those arbitrary prejudices come about in the first place, you know that just as well as I do.

Well, no, I don't believe that prejudice always comes about as a result of small numbers; I'd say it often correlates, but that that's a pretty simplistic conclusion overall.

On a side-note, would you consider this a requirement for any and all fantasy? Am I allowed one, perhaps, in which I can enjoy the escapism and forget about this particular shitty aspect of real life?