Travis McMichael Found Guilty of Ahmaud Arbery Murder

gorfias

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I'm going to stop you right there. No they weren't. No one called upon them to do anything.
Maybe my bad? I thought the owner of the trespassed upon building under construction (not a felony) called them directly for help. Reviewing.
EDIT: So far, I'm finding the owner was using surveillance cameras and calling 911 upon viewing trespasses. He claims he did not call Arbery's killers for help... reviewing some more.

I am wondering, if this guy had no contact with Arvery's killers, how did they correctly know he had trespassed the building under construction? Still reviewing.
2nd Edit:
"Owner: I told neighbor he could check my property, but not the McMichaels".
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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Maybe my bad? I thought the owner of the trespassed upon building under construction (not a felony) called them directly for help. Reviewing.
EDIT: So far, I'm finding the owner was using surveillance cameras and calling 911 upon viewing trespasses. He claims he did not call Arbery's killers for help... reviewing some more.

I am wondering, if this guy had no contact with Arvery's killers, how did they correctly know he had trespassed the building under construction? Still reviewing.
2nd Edit:
"Owner: I told neighbor he could check my property, but not the McMichaels".
As far as I know, and what I have heard about the case they never saw Arbery actual trespass on the property, they never saw him steal anything, they actually had no evidence that a crime had been committed, and even if a crime HAD been committed they did not have the right or authority to attempt to apprehend Aubrey.

They took it upon themselves to chase a man down just because they didn't like the look of him, and then killed him. If that's not the definition of a lynching I don't know what is.

I hope they never get out of prison.
 

Gergar12

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, and I know it's related to the other topic, but this defense team was trash, the Rittenhouse one wasn't, this time the prosecutor was better at their job, the Rittenhouse one wasn't. There is still a hierarchical justice system. I also wished there could be strong protests after many SCOTUS cases as well as extra-judical killings. Some decisions of SCOTUS amount to future harm, and I argue those deserve a strong response as well.
 

Fallen Soldier

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Maybe my bad? I thought the owner of the trespassed upon building under construction (not a felony) called them directly for help. Reviewing.
EDIT: So far, I'm finding the owner was using surveillance cameras and calling 911 upon viewing trespasses. He claims he did not call Arbery's killers for help... reviewing some more.

I am wondering, if this guy had no contact with Arvery's killers, how did they correctly know he had trespassed the building under construction? Still reviewing.
2nd Edit:
"Owner: I told neighbor he could check my property, but not the McMichaels".
Even if the homeowner didn’t intend to call 911 on Arvery, how many times have White people called the cops on Black people for basically no reason at all? https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/07/23/us/san-francisco-lemonade-gourmonade/index.html Not saying that was the homeowners intent in this case but it does happen often.
 

gorfias

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As far as I know, and what I have heard about the case they never saw Arbery actual trespass on the property, they never saw him steal anything, they actually had no evidence that a crime had been committed, and even if a crime HAD been committed they did not have the right or authority to attempt to apprehend Aubrey.

They took it upon themselves to chase a man down just because they didn't like the look of him, and then killed him. If that's not the definition of a lynching I don't know what is.

I hope they never get out of prison.
Thank you. @BrawlMan was, I think, unnecessarily acerbic but your post and his has me reviewing the fact pattern of the case. At worst, and it would be really bad, these yahoos were in their trucks with their guns cruising the neighborhood looking to play hero, saw a black guy running, decided for reasons of racism to stop him thinking him up to no good, resulting in his murder. That we have footage of the trespass (and I'm pretty sure, of him exiting the property and beginning from running from there? Thought I'd seen that.) may be an irrelevant distraction.

Reviewing that other question as well (would they be off the hook if they, for the sake of argument, convinced the Jury that they thought Arbery in the process of committing a felony: Edit, even if they were factually incorrect?)

ITMT: The video appear to have something to do with this. They may have seen it and just been cruising with their guns regardless. I'm looking for information as to why they were in the cars with their guns in the 1st place. Something I was asked in another post earlier. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-...ery-killing-was-guilty-malice-murder-rcna6660 " Defense attorneys said the McMichaels chased Arbery because they suspected he was a burglar who had been recorded on video inside a house under construction nearby. ... The defendants argued self-defense, as well as that they acted within their rights under Georgia's citizen's arrest law, which was legal at the time but was changed later in the wake of the shooting. " I wonder what the changes were.

2nd EDIT: Long story short, Travis McMichael claims he had a potentially dangerous run in with someone meeting Arbery's description who appeared to be casing a building under construction. 3 days later, dad runs into the house saying he just saw someone meeting the description (Arbery) running by, so they grabbed their guns and got into the truck. https://abcnews.go.com/US/travis-mcmichael-testifies-defense-ahmaud-arbery-case/story?id=81227117

Can I just add that the only reason they were convicted was video being released. Fighting for justice seems to mean diddly squat to some people without evidence.
I think @Seanchaidh has it correct. A lot of the times, you don't get justice unless you pursuit it very hard. A prosecutor will often just drop the case if for any reason s/he doesn't think it worth pursuing. (Or in this case, may have wanted to cover it up). I'm not sure about the video. Even without it, I don't think you have any facts in dispute. It sounds like the Defense argued that Arbery's actions necessitated what McMichael did. You don't need the video to show this appears to have been so but that legally that does not matter. They pulled up on him. He had a right to act as he did. And therefore, his killing was unlawful.
 
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Hades

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While the murderers are all obviously evil men I think its also quite tragic for them as well. They've reached a point where their racism cost them everything.

You often hear that white supremacy is harmful to white people too and we can see this on display. These people all had lives of their own but because they've been trained to view black people as subhuman and a danger they now lost all of that. It was just a normal day for them before the sight of a black man inspired such dread in them that they felt they simply had to risk everything to ''protect themselves''

Had they not be so racist then they'd still have lived their lives as if nothing happened. But instead they'll spend the rest of their lives in prison over an absurdly stupid fear.
 

Eacaraxe

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But what would the alternative to finding them guilty be? A quasi right to kill anyone you thought might be doing something wrong?
Otherwise known as "the historic norm for the country, particularly for those wearing badges and especially the South".

Hell, sundown towns still exist; I grew up in one. I can get on the interstate closest to my current home, drive west ten minutes to where I grew up, and it's still sundown towns straight through to Evansville.

A guilty verdict in a de facto lynching is the exception in this country, not the norm. Hell, charges and a trial are the exception. As others pointed out, the good ol' boy network tried to sweep this under the rug on the county level, and state authorities had to get involved in response to public outcry from the video's publication.
 

Baffle

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You often hear that white supremacy is harmful to white people too and we can see this on display. These people all had lives of their own but because they've been trained to view black people as subhuman and a danger they now lost all of that. It was just a normal day for them before the sight of a black man inspired such dread in them that they felt they simply had to risk everything to ''protect themselves''

Had they not be so racist then they'd still have lived their lives as if nothing happened. But instead they'll spend the rest of their lives in prison over an absurdly stupid fear.
I do not think we should suggest a lack of agency when it comes to murderers doing murders. They're not sorry they did it, they're sorry they got caught.
 

Cheetodust

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I do not think we should suggest a lack of agency when it comes to murderers doing murders. They're not sorry they did it, they're sorry they got caught.
100% but I do think that in the same way that toxic masculinity is harmful to men we CAN acknowledge that racism and white supremacy is harmful to white people. Not AS harmful clearly, but they are kind of victims of the mindset that encourages racism and pits us against each other to distract from the real problems. Like a lot of the right wing grifters really don't give a shit about race, sex, gender, sexuality or gender identity. There's a few hardcore religious whack jobs of course, but most of the people in power are just stoking flames so we fight each other. Look how quickly opposition to same sex marriage falls away once it's firmly cemented in the rules and how the same talking heads just pivot to anti-trans rhetoric. They're not necessarily afraid of equality because they're bigots, they're afraid of it because they know all of us being on the same team would question the power structures holding us all back.

Like the q anon folks. A lot of them are just lonely old people looking for a sense of belonging and they're being exploited. The people at the tops of these things are lots of things, but they're not stupid. They don't actually believe this shit they just know that they can exploit poor education and bubbling tensions to protect their own interests without ever actually having to fight.

Edit: hell look at my country. Leo Varadkar spend most of his early political career saying things so far to the right that the party founded by full on fascists thought he was hurting their image (probably by reminding people of the party's roots). He was one of the most vocally opposed to same sex marriage and adoption rights and he fought tooth and nail to prevent the referendum to remove the abortion ban. Now he's paraded as ireland's hip young progressive leader when really all that happened was he saw the writing on the wall and knew that opposing those things would lose him votes. Now he mostly attacks "benefits cheats" and fights for people who "get up early in the morning". He uses borderline mccarthy-esque rhetoric to describe socialists while also trying to praise the likes of Connolly and Pearse (proud socialists) because now it's class he wants to draw the dividing line on because that's what really bothers him. The working class wanting fair treatment. He doesn't actually stand for anything other than that and will change his politics in a flash if it helps him maintain the status quo.
 
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Baffle

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100% but I do think that in the same way that toxic masculinity is harmful to men we CAN acknowledge that racism and white supremacy is harmful to white people. Not AS harmful clearly, but they are kind of victims of the mindset that encourages racism and pits us against each other to distract from the real problems. Like a lot of the right wing grifters really don't give a shit about race, sex, gender, sexuality or gender identity. There's a few hardcore religious whack jobs of course, but most of the people in power are just stoking flames so we fight each other. Look how quickly opposition to same sex marriage falls away once it's firmly cemented in the rules and how the same talking heads just pivot to anti-trans rhetoric. They're not necessarily afraid of equality because they're bigots, they're afraid of it because they know all of us being on the same team would question the power structures holding us all back.
I feel that toxic masculinity and white supremacy are bad, but also that the people who buy into them are bad because they wilfully pursue something backs up how they already feel. Certainly those initial feelings weren't created in a vacuum, but we can't handwave away these people's responsibility to be better people than they currently are by blaming (only) the forces that led them astray.
 
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Cheetodust

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I feel that toxic masculinity and white supremacy are bad, but also that the people who buy into them are bad because they wilfully pursue something backs up how they already feel. Certainly those initial feelings weren't created in a vacuum, but we can't handwave away these people's responsibility to be better people than they currently are by blaming (only) the forces that led them astray.
Oh yeah, they are to blame for actually giving in to this bullshit, but if we didn't allow a situation where most people were in fact getting a raw deal it would be a lot harder to sow those seeds.
 

Baffle

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Oh yeah, they are to blame for actually giving in to this bullshit, but if we didn't allow a situation where most people were in fact getting a raw deal it would be a lot harder to sow those seeds.
Yep, completely agree - definitely recall being young, broke, angry and looking for someone to blame. Obv. now I realise whose fault it was (and I don't mean mine).
 

Agema

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They're not necessarily afraid of equality because they're bigots, they're afraid of it because they know all of us being on the same team would question the power structures holding us all back.
I'm not totally sure that's true: people on the right who genuinely don't care about race are in a way motivated to do something about it, because once the problem of inequality and discrimination ends, the people who were once disadvantaged might start voting for the right. This is a sort of basis why right wingers claim that left-wingers exaggerate inequality for electoral reasons, although somewhat confounded by the fact that inequality is still a very real phenomenon.

Thing is, they're ideologically disinclined to use the tools available to them to fix inequality, and that what they might need to do to fix inequality risks the continued support of their current voters more than it may gain them new voters. Thus, pragmatically, they do very little.
 
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BrawlMan

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Thank you. @BrawlMan was, I think, unnecessarily acerbic but your post and his has me reviewing the fact pattern of the case. At worst, and it would be really bad, these yahoos were in their trucks with their guns cruising the neighborhood looking to play hero, saw a black guy running, decided for reasons of racism to stop him thinking him up to no good, resulting in his murder. That we have footage of the trespass (and I'm pretty sure, of him exiting the property and beginning from running from there? Thought I'd seen that.) may be an irrelevant distraction.
I have to be when shit like this has been going on for 100s of years. Whenever a black person is killed or someone of different color being killed for having a non-white skin color. Where the aggressors are tried to be portrayed as "heroes, innocent, or tragic victims", and the actual victims are assumed of wrong doing or guilty by default. Which what you tried to do without considering the other side that was actually hurt and fucking killed. Yes, you changed your mind now, but what you said before was not only ignorant and oblivious, but nonsensical in the face of actual evidence. Evidence that they were trying to cover up on a county level.

I don't wanna hear the whole "good people do bad things" spiel when these three men knew exactly what they were doing. There is nothing tragic about any of them. They crossed the moral event horizon the moment they decided to lynch a black man in old Southern fashion. I feel no empathy for pathetic, cowardly monsters like them. No tears shall be shed for them. If they really were close to good people, they would have left Arbery alone in the first place and let the man live his life. They were not defending nor protecting anyone and doing nothing more than "survival of the fittest", and using beyond petty excuses just to kill someone because they thought they could get away with it. And they would have gotten away with it, if not for video evidence, the parents, relatives, and friends of Arbery fought hard as hell to fight for justice. If these worthless pieces of shit want to do some fucking good in their insecure and pathetic lives, tell the youngins this is where you're hatred and prejudice lead you. Killing has consequences, and there will not always be a free fucking ride! Get it?!

It's Thanksgiving and it will be last I will discuss of this for now. I don' wanna hear any other excuses like that from you ever again, because expecting the same fucking results. I won't be on this forum much today (especially on the current evens thread), because I got a holiday to enjoy with the wonderful and caring family I am blessed with. Everyone have a wonderful Thanksgiving and holiday.
 
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