Trump administration installs advocate for quick Afghanistan withdrawal at Pentagon

CM156

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Aren't you tired of winning yet?
Yes. I am just tired in general.

Mission Accomplished

How has this idea got bipartisan support and we've had 12 years of not pulling out
My guess? Because we don't want another Vietnam where we lose and suffer a PR disaster from having been beaten by a group of technologically underdeveloped peasants.
 

Shadyside

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Yes. I am just tired in general.


My guess? Because we don't want another Vietnam where we lose and suffer a PR disaster from having been beaten by a group of technologically underdeveloped peasants.
Are you going to change your avatar after Joe is sworn in?
 

Trunkage

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Yes. I am just tired in general.


My guess? Because we don't want another Vietnam where we lose and suffer a PR disaster from having been beaten by a group of technologically underdeveloped peasants.
It’s a bit late for that
 

Seanchaidh

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My guess? Because we don't want another Vietnam where we lose and suffer a PR disaster from having been beaten by a group of technologically underdeveloped peasants.
There really should be no shame in walking away from a conflict in someone else's territory. They don't want us there, so let's fuck off.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I thought we were there because they sheltered a terrorist and many of it's members. Bomb the heck out of them, make them fear making you come back, and leave. We didn't leave but stayed. That error should be corrected.
Coming in, killing thousands of civilians, wreaking the local infrastructure, then leaving creates far more terrorists then it would ever kill. And they'd be in the right.
Like when we bombed that vaccine factory in Sudan, ultimately killing upwards of ten thousand people only for the perpetrators to face literally zero repercussions. My country deserved 9/11 and more and we evidently didn't learn a damn thing. Hell, we *just* bragged about fencing $40 million dollars worth of Iranian oil that we pirated off the high seas that was headed for Venezuela.
Tucker Carlson read on air a proposal for new legislation: "Congress shall fund no new war until it has resolved its previous wars." If only.
Already solved. We haven't declared war since before Korea
 

Agema

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My guess? Because we don't want another Vietnam where we lose and suffer a PR disaster from having been beaten by a group of technologically underdeveloped peasants.
This is also part of being trapped by all the arguments employed to prop up the popularity of the conflict.

If the job was to clear out Al-Qaida, all done and leave. But they had to start talking about nation-building, democracy, liberty etc. and then they suddenly find they've got a whole lot more at stake to be criticised over should they abandon Afghanistan.
 

Trunkage

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This is also part of being trapped by all the arguments employed to prop up the popularity of the conflict.

If the job was to clear out Al-Qaida, all done and leave. But they had to start talking about nation-building, democracy, liberty etc. and then they suddenly find they've got a whole lot more at stake to be criticised over should they abandon Afghanistan.
They should just do what China does and buy them out
 

Silvanus

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"We're not beaten until we admit it, so if we never give up, we can never lose"
...are you still talking about the US military engagement here, or someone a bit closer to home?
 

CM156

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...are you still talking about the US military engagement here, or someone a bit closer to home?
Entirely about Afghanistan.

I didn't vote for Trump in 2020 and I think he should concede.
 

Silvanus

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Entirely about Afghanistan.

I didn't vote for Trump in 2020 and I think he should concede.
Fair enough. Just so ya know, that wasn't intended as a jab at you, just a general joke.
 

CM156

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Fair enough. Just so ya know, that wasn't intended as a jab at you, just a general joke.
I figured, but I wanted to respond that way to avoid any confusion.
 
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gorfias

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Mm.

Heroin (if injected) is particularly powerful as a drug of abuse because it gets to the brain very quickly so can give an intense high compared to most other opioids like morphine. Fentanyl is going to be relatively popular because, like heroin, it also gets into the brain quickly. This also makes them dangerous.

But frankly, the main reason the USA's got a particular problem with either heroin or fentanyl are oxycodone and hydrocodone, pushed by your own pharmaceutical companies and prescribed like candy by your own healthcare service. If you get huge numbers of people addicted to medical opioids and then take those meds away without a program to help them deal with the addiction, they'll try to get opioids from somewhere else.
I was on Vicodin for a bit. Asked my doctor for more. She gave me a lesser amount and, for a guy with my impulse issues, I'm lucky I did not get permanently hooked. How bad is the opioid crisis? Two teens in my orbit ( a next door neighbor and my son's worst best friend [he adored him though he was a bad influence] both passed away from abusing this garbage. I still want the war on drugs replaced with the social effort to keep people from abusing them. But they are bad. And some people (Afghans) are going to take a financial hit if their product is not bought and abused en masse.
We haven't declared war since before Korea
But, to the aggravation of anti-war types like myself, Congress keeps funding them. (I don't think Korea was a "declared war": it was considered a police action). Don't fund them and I wonder what would happen. Something positive I hope.
 
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Agema

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I was on Vicodin for a bit. Asked my doctor for more. She gave me a lesser amount and, for a guy with my impulse issues, I'm lucky I did not get permanently hooked. How bad is the opioid crisis?
How bad? Very bad.

This history of opioids is incredible. People used opium (which was pretty weak compared to modern opioids) and noticed it was unfortunately addictive. In the early 1800s, Friedrich Seturner first isolated morphine and found it six times more potent than opium, so he thought maybe being able to use a sixth as much meant people could get the therapeutic benefit but be less addictive. He became addicted to morphine. In the 1870s someone discovered diamorphine, in the hope they could get the therapeutic benefits without the addictiveness, like Seturner had hoped with morphine. The early brand name of diamorphine? Heroin. So I don't need to tell you how that one worked out. Then into the 20th century, stuff like oxycodone and pethidine were discovered, in their never-ending hope to find an opioid that wasn't addictive, and it never worked. That's to set the scene for the latest crisis, which was kicked off because they created slow-release formulas for opioids (mostly old opioids discovered in the early 20th century) and claimed that the slow release would somehow make them much less addictive. So, how likely was this ever going to be, given the above context?

They didn't even present adequate data to defend the case - but they poked and prodded and threw around marketing budgets and pressured the medical community and got it signed off. A lot of it was that they heavily lobbied the medical profession and government by presenting an apparent epidemic of chronic pain and raising pain treatment to be a much more important component of care ("fifth vital sign"), and the regulators were always a little compliant to business. Oh, how the pills rolled out and the money rolled in. And surprise surprise, these slow release formulations turned out to be really quite addictive. Who could have predicted this (except of course absolutely anyone familiar with the history and pharmacology of opioids)?

So, to put the USA's problems in context, the UK has 2500-3000 opioid deaths a year, and the UK has an opioid problem at the upper end of the specttrum for Western countries. As the USA has five times the population, you'd expect ~15,000-18,000 deaths from opioids. It's actually about 70,000, about four times worse. Wowzer. Canada, incidentally, is only marginally better than the USA, I might guess because trends are easily passed from their larger, close neighbour so they followed tack.

The USA also gets in the neck in other ways too, because the other two really dangerous drugs of abuse, methamphetamine and crack cocaine, are also incredibly popular there compared to Europe - Europeans mostly stuck with ordinary cocaine that's much less likely to cause fatal OD, and seemed to prefer hallucinogens (mostly safe) like ecstasy to stimulants. Funny old world. How did the USA manage to go crazy for all three of the worst fucking drugs out there?
 

Seanchaidh

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They didn't even present adequate data to defend the case - but they poked and prodded and threw around marketing budgets and pressured the medical community and got it signed off. A lot of it was that they heavily lobbied the medical profession and government by presenting an apparent epidemic of chronic pain and raising pain treatment to be a much more important component of care ("fifth vital sign"), and the regulators were always a little compliant to business. Oh, how the pills rolled out and the money rolled in. And surprise surprise, these slow release formulations turned out to be really quite addictive. Who could have predicted this (except of course absolutely anyone familiar with the history and pharmacology of opioids)?
Notably, there are cases where pain management actually should outweigh the risk of addiction. That's why my grandmother used oxycodone for a few years before she died. Frankly, opioids made her more lucid rather than less.
 

Iron

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Notably, there are cases where pain management actually should outweigh the risk of addiction. That's why my grandmother used oxycodone for a few years before she died. Frankly, opioids made her more lucid rather than less.
It's one of the few instances when it's a good thing.
 

Eacaraxe

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Coming in, killing thousands of civilians, wreaking the local infrastructure, then leaving creates far more terrorists then it would ever kill.
Either way is a losing proposition, and that suits the warmongers just fine. Violence is cyclical. Look at Israel-Palestine, or the Troubles. All it takes is one extremist dillhole on one side or another with a vested interest in the continuation of violence deciding things are getting a bit too quiet for their own good, and it's back off to the races.

In the case of Afghanistan, whether the US stayed or left was to some degree immaterial. Regardless what it did, the next generation of "terrorists" were radicalized and the pump was primed to keep the war machine chugging right along.