Trump unveils plan for Palestinian subjugation

[Agema]

Or "realistic peace plan", as he describes it.

This is the brainfart of his son in law, delayed since 2017. It has been arranged with no negotiation with the Palestinians. This appears to be evident in its proposals:

1) It seems to fudge the Jerusalem to some degree, it says the Palestinians will have their capital in "part" of East Jerusalem, although it seems all of EJ that really means anything goes to Israel.
2) The entirety of the Jordan Valley (including, obviously, the vital water access and rights) goes to Israel, as well as various other chunks of land here and there leaving the Palestinian territories to look like a map someone's attacked with a pair of scissors.
3) All Israeli settlements to remain
4) A map seems to suggest Palestinians are apparently being granted in return areas of Negev desert near the Egyptian border optimistically described as a high tech manufacturing zone and an agricultural / residential (!!) zone. (This is obvious wishful thinking.)
5) The Palestinians don't even appear to be guaranteed statehood. They get statehood on apparently meeting certain conditions which are poorly described. This of course leads to the suspicion they could be almost indefinitely denied statehood anyway depending on these terms.

6) I think Trump was going sweeten the deal with $50 billion investment plan. Except that's a regional plan, the Palestinians are only getting about half. And it seems suspiciously vague who's paying for it: there is no clear commitment from the USA.

Needless to say, this is a shitshow that the Palestinians have already bounced. Potentially it's just a cynical scheme to boost each other's electoral chances.

 

[CaitSeith]

And it seems suspiciously vague who's paying for it: there is no clear commitment from the USA.

Let me guess: Mexico is going to pay for it, isn't it?

 

[Agema]

And it seems suspiciously vague who's paying for it: there is no clear commitment from the USA.

Let me guess: Mexico is going to pay for it, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, it may merely be a projected estimate for private investment expected to flow in with "peace" settled. I'm guessing that would be a bit too ludicrous, and what would actually happen is that the USA would chuck in a few billion, and then try to get others (EU, Arab countries, maybe China, UN/IMF etc.) to top it up to the $50 billion.

After all, the way it works in Trumpworld is you fix up a deal to profit yourself, and get everyone else to pay for it. That's what his business empire did.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

And no right of return, don't forget about that.
I highly doubt Palestinians will accept this plan.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I think this is to distract from Netanyahu's corruption trial process. Either way, Palestine is already subjugated, I don't get why they can't just give Israel all of the land and turn into Israeli citizens every palestinian born on that land after Israel was founded because Israel has birthright citizenship and then just let them vote with the rest of them because Israel is a democracy. Israel is staking a claim on all of the land, right? Well, then everyone who was born there outside of like, a few really old people should count as being Israeli citizens with full rights.

 

[Trunkage]

I like the bit where the Palestinians weren't even invited. Real class.

 

[Trunkage]

I think this is to distract from Netanyahu's corruption trial process. Either way, Palestine is already subjugated, I don't get why they can't just give Israel all of the land and turn into Israeli citizens every palestinian born on that land after Israel was founded because Israel has birthright citizenship and then just let them vote with the rest of them because Israel is a democracy. Israel is staking a claim on all of the land, right? Well, then everyone who was born there outside of like, a few really old people should count as being Israeli citizens with full rights.

I believe there are around as many Palestinians as Jewish Israelis (6 mil each). The Jews are worried that if the Palestinians ever got power, there would be another holocaust. They want to make sure that no Palestinian can ever hold power. Having a really close population number of threatens that power.

And when I say Jew here, I'm only really talking about the ones in power right now, because, as far as I've heard from Jewish friends, that's just an conservative view. A lot of Jews despise Netanyahu based on his beliefs and treatment of Palestinians. This can be seen by the need to go to a third election becuase no one can gain a majority

But I also recognize that this is just Western Jews talking about a homeland they dont really interact with. And anecdotal

 

[Thaluikhain]

After all, the way it works in Trumpworld is you fix up a deal to profit yourself, and get everyone else to pay for it. That's what his business empire did.

Or talk about a deal you've got no intention following through on at all.

Fingers crossed this is hot air for political reasons and nothing bad happens. Well, more bad than usual.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Or "realistic peace plan", as he describes it.

This is the brainfart of his son in law, delayed since 2017. It has been arranged with no negotiation with the Palestinians. This appears to be evident in its proposals:

1) It seems to fudge the Jerusalem to some degree, it says the Palestinians will have their capital in "part" of East Jerusalem, although it seems all of EJ that really means anything goes to Israel.
2) The entirety of the Jordan Valley (including, obviously, the vital water access and rights) goes to Israel, as well as various other chunks of land here and there leaving the Palestinian territories to look like a map someone's attacked with a pair of scissors.
3) All Israeli settlements to remain
4) A map seems to suggest Palestinians are apparently being granted in return areas of Negev desert near the Egyptian border optimistically described as a high tech manufacturing zone and an agricultural / residential (!!) zone. (This is obvious wishful thinking.)
5) The Palestinians don't even appear to be guaranteed statehood. They get statehood on apparently meeting certain conditions which are poorly described. This of course leads to the suspicion they could be almost indefinitely denied statehood anyway depending on these terms.

6) I think Trump was going sweeten the deal with $50 billion investment plan. Except that's a regional plan, the Palestinians are only getting about half. And it seems suspiciously vague who's paying for it: there is no clear commitment from the USA.

Needless to say, this is a shitshow that the Palestinians have already bounced. Potentially it's just a cynical scheme to boost each other's electoral chances.

I cannot see the Palestinians accepting this. Like, at all.

 

[Silvanus]

I think this is to distract from Netanyahu's corruption trial process. Either way, Palestine is already subjugated, I don't get why they can't just give Israel all of the land and turn into Israeli citizens every palestinian born on that land after Israel was founded because Israel has birthright citizenship and then just let them vote with the rest of them because Israel is a democracy. Israel is staking a claim on all of the land, right? Well, then everyone who was born there outside of like, a few really old people should count as being Israeli citizens with full rights.

The ruling party doesn't recognise the citizenship of those who were born in Israel but fled the war. It also doesn't incorporate those who lived in the areas it annexes. So, no, Netanyahu would not afford them citizen status.

Plus, "full rights" isn't accurate, even for citizens. Remember that its enshrined in law that Palestinians do not have the right to self-determination. Palestinians with citizenship have their homes demolished, too.

It's an extreme-right party engaged in voter suppression we're talking about, not an egalitarian democracy.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I think this is to distract from Netanyahu's corruption trial process. Either way, Palestine is already subjugated, I don't get why they can't just give Israel all of the land and turn into Israeli citizens every palestinian born on that land after Israel was founded because Israel has birthright citizenship and then just let them vote with the rest of them because Israel is a democracy. Israel is staking a claim on all of the land, right? Well, then everyone who was born there outside of like, a few really old people should count as being Israeli citizens with full rights.

I believe there are around as many Palestinians as Jewish Israelis (6 mil each). The Jews are worried that if the Palestinians ever got power, there would be another holocaust. They want to make sure that no Palestinian can ever hold power. Having a really close population number of threatens that power.

And when I say Jew here, I'm only really talking about the ones in power right now, because, as far as I've heard from Jewish friends, that's just an conservative view. A lot of Jews despise Netanyahu based on his beliefs and treatment of Palestinians. This can be seen by the need to go to a third election becuase no one can gain a majority

But I also recognize that this is just Western Jews talking about a homeland they dont really interact with. And anecdotal

Still doesn't make it right. You don't get to subjugate people on what they might do in a democracy lol. Either you believe in your democracy and allow freedom or you don't have one.


Even in the worst case scenario where you wanna claim those who fought the wars in the 70s all lost their citizenship, the kids who were born on the contested lands have to be Israeli citizens at the very least or Israel loses the claim it wants to say it has to these lands.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

For those interested, here's a map Trump tweeted that shows the territories near the Egyptian border the Palestinians would get from this deal. Those hightech manufacturing and residential/agricultural areas mentioned in Agema's OP.

For funsies, look up those areas on Google Maps. Turn on satellite view. See what's actually there. Or rather, what isn't.

Anyway, this peace plan has a little bit of a Carthaginean vibe to it. The Palestinians will not and can not accept this.

 

[Trunkage]

I think this is to distract from Netanyahu's corruption trial process. Either way, Palestine is already subjugated, I don't get why they can't just give Israel all of the land and turn into Israeli citizens every palestinian born on that land after Israel was founded because Israel has birthright citizenship and then just let them vote with the rest of them because Israel is a democracy. Israel is staking a claim on all of the land, right? Well, then everyone who was born there outside of like, a few really old people should count as being Israeli citizens with full rights.

I believe there are around as many Palestinians as Jewish Israelis (6 mil each). The Jews are worried that if the Palestinians ever got power, there would be another holocaust. They want to make sure that no Palestinian can ever hold power. Having a really close population number of threatens that power.

And when I say Jew here, I'm only really talking about the ones in power right now, because, as far as I've heard from Jewish friends, that's just an conservative view. A lot of Jews despise Netanyahu based on his beliefs and treatment of Palestinians. This can be seen by the need to go to a third election becuase no one can gain a majority

But I also recognize that this is just Western Jews talking about a homeland they dont really interact with. And anecdotal

Still doesn't make it right. You don't get to subjugate people on what they might do in a democracy lol. Either you believe in your democracy and allow freedom or you don't have one.


Even in the worst case scenario where you wanna claim those who fought the wars in the 70s all lost their citizenship, the kids who were born on the contested lands have to be Israeli citizens at the very least or Israel loses the claim it wants to say it has to these lands.

What's right got to do with it? When has Netanyahu or Trump done something that is fair and balanced rather than benefiting one group over another?

Edit: Let's take some examples not from these two. Bush then Obama bailouts. Paid by taxpayers to the rich. Or how hundreds of thousands of people should have gone to jail over falsifying mortgage documents but got away scott free

Or how Bush 2 invaded a country without evidence. And those same supporters got up those leftie commies for thinking his a war criminal

Or how Bill clearly abused his office and the Dems just let it slide. Or how the Mexican banks were saved by American taxpayers because American investors screwed their system

When I say I don't think Bernie will always do things for the people, it's because no president ever has. Once they get power, they become entrapped in a cycle of abuses. I hope Bernie can be better, but I don't think he can

 

[Agema]

For funsies, look up those areas on Google Maps. Turn on satellite view. See what's actually there. Or rather, what isn't.

It is absolute the weirdest fucking shit imaginable.

Who the hell builds industrial zones in the middle of nowhere? Think of the maintenance costs of harsh, hot desert. No workers live there, no infrastructure exists, the transport links don't look favourable... it has no practical or economic rationale at all. What the hell use is that? The idea of an agricultural zone in that sort desert area is even more insane? There's no water, it's not practical to run irrigation from where there is water, never mind that water is major resource headache in the region, and of course they'd be paying the Israelis (who have been gifted ownership of all the water under Trump's plan) a fortune which would make it economically unviable.

Those two things alone are almost like saying "This plan is totally a joke, lol".

 

[Seanchaidh]

Seems like a way to falsely claim, "See? We tried" before killing a bunch more Palestinians.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

For those interested, here's a map Trump tweeted that shows the territories near the Egyptian border the Palestinians would get from this deal. Those hightech manufacturing and residential/agricultural areas mentioned in Agema's OP.

For funsies, look up those areas on Google Maps. Turn on satellite view. See what's actually there. Or rather, what isn't.

Anyway, this peace plan has a little bit of a Carthaginean vibe to it. The Palestinians will not and can not accept this.

This is Swiss cheese. Not a viable plan for a nation-state.

 

[Agema]

This is Swiss cheese. Not a viable plan for a nation-state.

Looking through the plan, it's not even intended to be a viable nation state.

It will not be permitted a military, which effectively means it cannot enforce its sovereignty against any other state. The Palestinian state is non-contiguous, which means it can be cut-up and bits isolated at will. It is effectively isolated from any state other than Israel, which means if Israel chooses to shut the border, it is instantly crippled. It will depend utterly on Israel for key resources. This makes it politically and economically subservient to Israel.

It will be, de facto, a modern form of vassal state.

This is undoubtedly the intent. Israel wants the Palestinians' land, resources, etc. but cannot absorb the Palestinian population without either destroying its status as a Jewish state or enacting apartheid (although I'd argue the current state of the Palestinians is effectively apartheid now). If Israel cannot have this land for the Jews because it cannot just wholesale evict the occupants, then what it can do is exercise such control over it that it works for them anyway. Even in a "happy" scenario where such a Palestine flourished, a very large amount of its bounty would just flow straight into the pockets of Israel.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This is undoubtedly the intent.

Couldn't it be:

Seems like a way to falsely claim, "See? We tried" before killing a bunch more Palestinians.

It'd hardly be the first time someone pretended to play nice if the other side would agree to impossible demands.

 

[tstorm823]

It'd hardly be the first time someone pretended to play nice if the other side would agree to impossible demands.

It's not impossible demands, it's just not desirable. It's almost literally the exact current status quo, just written down, so it's not like it'd be hard to meet, Palestine would just gain basically nothing but their name on more maps, maybe.

The significance of this is definitely not that it's a good or workable plan that has any chance of Palestinian support, the significance is that Israeli leadership is effectively acknowledging Palestinian Statehood, and the nations on the Arabian peninsula who are getting a bit more friendly with Israel these days have basically all said "Palestine, we know this isn't good, but you better start negotiating or we're going to back this in 4 years."

 

[Agema]

Seems like a way to falsely claim, "See? We tried" before killing a bunch more Palestinians.

It'd hardly be the first time someone pretended to play nice if the other side would agree to impossible demands.

I think arguing that Israel wants to kill the Palestinians is going too far. I don't think Israel institutionally cares much about the lives of Palestinians, but that's not the same thing as actively trying to kill them.

I think it's much more likely to be an Overton window sort of calculation. If one person says 7 and the other 3, the mid-point and what a lot of the moderates duly plod to as supposedly reasonable) is 5. If one side then moves their position to 10, the mid-point becomes ~7. Thus you can justify a great deal more not by changing any facts or the actual situation, but people's perception of it.