Turn based RPG becoming real time becoming turn based again (PoE2, P:K)

meiam

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Western RPG (Think Baldur's Gate) comes from an attempt to translate tabletop RPG into video game (either directly, like Baldur's gate using DnD ruleset or indirectly). One really strange quirk of history is that they decided to make that transition by switching from turn based system to real time system.

So enter two of the most recent western real time RPG, pathfinder:kingmaker and pillar of eternity 2. Both are still heavily inspired by tabletop RPG (pathfinder literally use the pathfinder system, down to some ability/feat description being literally lifted straight from the book, with some still being written as if the game was turn based) but still decided to continue the transition of real time gameplay. Except not anymore, they both ended up releasing update that allow the game to be played in turn based mode, although quite a long time after release in both cases.

The results is some weird hybrid. The basic mechanic of the gameplay were clearly designed for turn base system. You'd think the UI would be made for real time gameplay, but if that was the cases they both did a horrendous job at it, with incredibly poor UI in both case (for example, if you're character has a lot of buff/debuff on them the UI literally cannot display all of them at once and so you're missing information). But the encounter and difficulty were clearly made for real time combat. This translate into much easier encounter in turn base mode. I played trough PoE2 twice, once in real time and once in turn base, the experience was... disappointing both time (highest difficulty setting in both case). Real time was an exercise in frustration, the character path finding was atrocious, if I didn't hold their hand the entire time they'd willingly walk right next to enemy (trigger an enemy free attack) for no reason and would often take the longest path possible for no reason. Knowing what character were doing at any point was hard as they wouldn't have any clear indicator of their current action, especially when 10+ characters were all acting at once. In turn base mode these problems were much easier to deal with. But on the flip side the game was far too easy, with fight that were frustrating on my first play trough being little more than annoyance. The system also suffered with some stats and item clearly being better in one mode or the other, for example, in real time heavy weapon would cause your character to act less often, in turn base these would only make your character act later in initiative, something that didn't really matter for most build, similarly one of the best stats in real time was a complete waste of point in turn base.

I just find this strange transition really weird and I can't think of any other case where you have this sort of large shift in basic gameplay mechanic happening across a game lifespan (maybe Halo, apparently starting as an RTS). I am really glad that it seems like after 20+ years the industry finally realize that system that were built around turn base mechanic should be played turn base with BG3 being built for turn base combat from the ground up.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I never really played an WRPG with the real-time combat (though I did play FF12) because I never really got the point of it. Combat in these type of games is supposed to be at least complex and strategic enough that the combat shouldn't really work in real-time. Spells have very specific attack cones and diameters and whatnot. And even a straight fighter or rogue should care enough about positioning to not want just run up and hack away at an enemy. I don't get why older games like Buldar's Gate went real-time instead of turn-based because real-time is also harder to develop for because you need solid AI of your party members to not be shit in combat and turn-based would just be easier to develop for in the 1st place.
 

meiam

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Real time is generally less time consuming and less frustrating for new players to get into. I know when I started out as an RPG gamer in the late 90's I bounced off of Fallout hard because it was turn based, but found Baldur's Gate great because things just kept moving. It is not a big deal if there are like 4 or 5 units involved in a combat, but when you get to combats that contain 2 something units it can become a real chore to do turn based combat.

As an example I got Mordheim: City of the Damned cheap on GoG during their summer sale. As much as I like the idea and the mood I can't help getting bored whenever the AI takes its turn. I hate having to wait for over a minute just because there aren't options to speed up the AIs turns or make the AI do its turn in synch or similar. The Total War games have understood this, which is why you get stuff like 15 second turns in Warhammer II if you don't have camera options set to follow enemies within your line of sight.
Can't really disagree with that but for me it's sort of an advantage. I generally play anything turn base while watching some TV/youtube and I just pause it when something really need my attention or a story sequence happens. Mordheim is one of the game I do this and I never really noticed that enemy turn took that long.

I don't think it's impossible to make a good real time RPG, but the mechanic/UI have to be built for this from the beginning.
 

Agema

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Didn't really have a problem with PoE 1 or 2. They are pretty easy, but I preferred it for narrative anyway. And I hated the truly bizarre naval combat system in PoE2.

I think the only thing I did find annoying was how many spells / abilities there. I can't be arsed wading through the rules trying to find uber-combos, I prefer something more streamlined. I'm a bit of a believer that less is more, and I sometimes just feel a bit fed up trying to juggle 15 damage types and resistances, weapon damage and weapon penetration and weapon speed and weapon dps and on and on, drowning in statistics. I am aware some spreadsheet types love that stuff. I feel a bit like that with D&D, which has a likeably straightforward system, and then creates dozens of classes with dozens of unique abilities and suddenly I feel like I'm drowning in rules.

I find real time frustrating. It's half a feat of fast and rapid clicking rather than thinking. If there's a pause, I inevitably turn it into de facto turn based anyway - I suppose the big advantage is you don't need to click through units as you would in turn-based. I did find some of the pathfinding and target selection of PoE 1/2 broken. Enemies seem to target the nearest opponent, and then run at them. So if you accidentally trigger an enemy with a squishy, you retreat your squishy and the idiot AI tries to run through your tanks to get at them. In a way it's handy as it's easy to exploit, but mostly it's quite annoying.

I feel the need to go off on a tangent a bit about daggers. Daggers should be shit. Screw that fast attack nonsense, if you've got a dagger against a sword you're not going to get those extra attacks in because your opponent's extra 2+ feet of weapon will mean you've almost no opportunities to get close enough to hit them. At bare minimum you need a "reach" mechanic where people with significantly shorter weapons take a colossal to hit malus.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Real time is generally less time consuming and less frustrating for new players to get into. I know when I started out as an RPG gamer in the late 90's I bounced off of Fallout hard because it was turn based, but found Baldur's Gate great because things just kept moving. It is not a big deal if there are like 4 or 5 units involved in a combat, but when you get to combats that contain 2 something units it can become a real chore to do turn based combat.

As an example I got Mordheim: City of the Damned cheap on GoG during their summer sale. As much as I like the idea and the mood I can't help getting bored whenever the AI takes its turn. I hate having to wait for over a minute just because there aren't options to speed up the AIs turns or make the AI do its turn in synch or similar. The Total War games have understood this, which is why you get stuff like 15 second turns in Warhammer II if you don't have camera options set to follow enemies within your line of sight.
Again, I haven't played any of these WRPG real-time systems but I don't think a video game using DnD2's system and making it real-time is welcoming to new players, would new players (that don't know DnD but know video game RPGs) be more comfortable with say Baldur's Gate or a Divinity game? I feel RPGs should focus far less on combat and on the actual role-playing so less fighting encounters total but make each one more important (like no stupid rat fights in the sewers at level 1) so the "slow" turn-based combat isn't what you're mainly doing when you play the game.
 

wings012

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Conceptually I think I prefer turn based over what I consider - pseudo-realtime. Whereas everything is dictated by cooldowns and dice rolls anyway, which feels like there's little point for it to be real time in the first place.

But I did find myself being extremely tired when playing games like PoE, Shadowrun, Wasteland 2 or even tactical JRPGs like Disgaea or Tactics Ogre. The more characters get involved the more of a massive pain in the arse it becomes(especially in the case of the Japanese games which can have a ludicrous amount of characters to make moves for). For the Western games, you are often outnumbered and waiting for the enemies to resolve their turns is also incredibly dull.

At the same time I can't really say I'm super fond of watching characters wail on each other, missing or hitting based on dice rolls and then mashing skills as they come off cooldown.
 

Trunkage

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So, they've gone Divinity? That's cool. I like choices so doing both makes sense. Choosing one over the other just alienates people... as long as you have the resources

Also, I'll note that in something like PoE, Im pretty sure if you click a spell, it's an automatic pause. I never tried to put a spell down while things were moving. I like the real time because I can pause when I want, not when the computer tells me. I don't need to be in control of every sword swipe or arrow

Having a turn based system in Baulders Gate would be a huge problem. You'd regularly go 5 turns without anyone hitting anything. You needed crowd control, not because of strategy, but because you need to focus on only one enemy at a time because you'd need to try to hit it 20 times before RNGesus would favour you.

In PoE, they put in grazes so it actually feels like you are in combat. A few grazes could kill an enemy or finish off one. PoE also had way more skills so it feels more worthwhile being startegic. Like, I can't imagine why I'd need to tell Minsk to hit the same target over and over

In Baulders Gate, the best strategy was to shoot fireballs off screen. I've heard way to many people think this is a plus, but I think its cheating. And poorly designed. If you're encounters are so badly designed that you feel like you need to cheese it, you've done something wrong.