Twighlight readers I have a question (Flamers stay away)

[Riding on Thermals]

You. Are. an idiot. the books only sold so well because people enjoy reading them, therefore they have merit. Also, I love how you assume that out of 89 million copies sold, none were purchased by "Discerning Readers". I have read LoTR, To Kill a Mockingbird, Scarlet Letter, Great Gatsby, SoT, WoT, Night angel Trilogy, ect. I have read several classics, but I own a full bookshelf of fantasy books. Twilight has redeeming qualities, just not many of them. Here's the thing, it doesn't need many because it's one good quality(the plot) is good enough to make it a pretty decent book. Does it deserve to be as popular as it is? HELL NO. but it isn't a worthless piece of trash either.

Besides taking issue with your statement about sales equating to merit, I have to ask what you though was so "simply good" about the plot? I believe OP is looking for specifics. If you were at a race track and asked why the victor won and I told you his "engine was good" would that explain how to build your own car?

On topic, Stephanie Meyer managed to synthesize her memories as a girl in a repressed Mormon community into a viable story (after co-opting the archetypal character that is the vampire) that played to the exact emotions of girls who see themselves as "repressed," be that mentally, emotionally, or sexually. In order to capture that zeitgeist you must have the experience and the intellect to present it to others or the empathy to imagine an experience you haven't had. Either way, good luck OP!

 

[Prof. Monkeypox]

Moviebob has pretty good stuff to say about this topic. Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly where.

Here's the gist though: "It doesn't matter that the books are utterly ridiculous and poorly written, because they appeal to nerd girls directly, a subset of culture that has gone completely uncatered up until this point."

Basically, Twilight fans will defend it because it's what they've been asking for their whole lives, so the first series that offers that service, regardless of quality, will be immediately loved.

 

[Ldude893]

and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

Aw, why do you always have to ruin the fun?

OT:
Truth be told, I never read the book. I did however read an excerpt from the book, specifically the first chapter of the first book in the series.

I'd say I was foaming from the mouth but that would be exaggerating to much. Rather, I think it's just tasteless words spun together to attract preteen or teenage girls. Almost half of the words are used to describe the looks of a mystical looking boy with hardly any plot development whatsoever, and the excessive description of the surroundings and setting are just needless. We also hardly know anything about Bella from the first page at all, and that's where she appears. I think it's just placing the reader in Bella's shoes and forcing the reader to grasp how strangely attractive Edward is. Personally, I think it's too uncomfortable and sloppy.

If there's anything you can learn from the Twilight series, I think it provides good examples on what NOT to do when writing a novel.

 

[Gxas]

I think it's just placing the reader in Bella's shoes

Thats exactly what it is though. Which is what most people can't wrap their heads around. Bella isn't a bland character, rather, she is a template. She isn't much described in the books because you, the reader, are Bella. If you were to go back and reread the passage with that in mind, I believe that it would slightly change your opinion. I know it won't make you like it, by any means, but it will make the intention clearer.

 

[spartan231490]

snip

A couple of 'em are, sure, but the only reason this book received any success at all, again, is because they know how to exploit an audience, just as the tween musicians (or their producers) do, not because of its quality, and you know that perfectly well. Don't try saying that's not the case with a straight face.

Edit: One thing I forgot, people [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1666186/] enjoy [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213644/] the foulest [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073498/] of shit [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0799949/]. Don't let this be the only basis for your argument.

No, it is because of quality. It's a pretty good story, not great, but good. Believe what you want, but Twilight isn't half as bad as you say. It isn't worth all the popularity it has, but it's not just exploitation of the audience, it's a decent book in it's own right. Not great, but not bad either.

 

[Sovvolf]

The premise of the story promotes the idea of what I call the "immortal love story" Bella is in love with someone, but circumstances mean that she will die for her love, everything is conspiring to keep the two apart, but they strive to stay together, at the possible expense of their lives. Read that again and think of Romeo and Juliet. Same thing.
.

No... The relationship between Bella and Edward is nothing close to the relationship between Romeo and Juliet or Heathcliff and Catherine (yeah some people compare the relationship to Wuthering Heights too). There is nothing conspiring to keep them apart accept poor writing and the fact that it was written by a murmon. Romeo and Juliet were pulled apart because of a family feud that would never allow them to be together. Heathcliff and Catherine were pulled apart because Catherine couldn't be with some one of Heathcliffs class in life.

There is nothing that is pulling them apart from each other. There is no reason why neither of them could have a reasonable relationship, infact they do seem to be having a relationship all the way through the books (Maybe a few ups and downs here and there but otherwise...). They just wont have sex because bad writingEdwards upbringing. Ho wait, shes human... He's a vegetarian vampire and he's managed to take down anyone who's attacked Bella so... That no excuse. He'll out live her... Then turn her into a fucking vampire then, she clearly wanted to go down that path so why not?

I imagine it was intended to come off as "The immortal love story" or as a Romeo and Juliet/ Heathcliff and Catherine relationship, however I think Stephenie Myers may need to re-read both of them because I think she missed the point. Though, as said, it really is poorly written so that could be a factor.

Maybe in the future books it turns into a Romeo and Juliet esc plot for it however I've not read anything past the first book.

As for the reason its popular, well I think everyone else as said it. Its pretty much a laser guided missile for the target audience. Bella is a Mary Sue for the reader and Myers, Edward is a fantasy dream for the reader. So it gathers a wide audience. Most that read it don't really look far enough in it to really think about the whole fridge horror or the hypocrisy. Others try to hand wave it, the rest are insane.

So theres your answer bud, it all comes down to great marketing and wise decisions based on your target audience. Its pretty much a quantitative book rather than qualitative. When it comes to writing your book ask your self just that question, do your want to make a quantitative book (i.e make a shit load of money) or a qualitative book (i.e make a well written masterpiece that will last through the age).

No, it is because of quality. It's a pretty good story, not great, but good. Believe what you want, but Twilight isn't half as bad as you say.

Yes it is, well at least to him it is... See we have these things called opinions... His is that its a piece of shit yours is that:

it's a decent book in it's own right. Not great, but not bad either.

Neither of you are wrong, neither of you are right. It all comes down to taste and opinion.

Personally, I find the book to be a poorly written, bland and a boring piece of shit. Though I will say that the culture around it does interest me. How it gained to fame and how well its doing despite the tons of plot holes and creepy subtext. Its a piece of shit, but its an interesting piece shit.

 

[04whim]

Without wishing to sound like a titular flamer, the lesson to be learned is "target very large, very ease to please audiences who can easily be whipped into a frenzy if the cool person at school says its good". I'm aware that not every Twilight reader is a 12 year old girl, but stereotypes are often for a reason and having read the first book when fishing in France for a week, I promptly let my friend keep it.

 

[spartan231490]

You. Are. an idiot. the books only sold so well because people enjoy reading them, therefore they have merit. Also, I love how you assume that out of 89 million copies sold, none were purchased by "Discerning Readers". I have read LoTR, To Kill a Mockingbird, Scarlet Letter, Great Gatsby, SoT, WoT, Night angel Trilogy, ect. I have read several classics, but I own a full bookshelf of fantasy books. Twilight has redeeming qualities, just not many of them. Here's the thing, it doesn't need many because it's one good quality(the plot) is good enough to make it a pretty decent book. Does it deserve to be as popular as it is? HELL NO. but it isn't a worthless piece of trash either.

Besides taking issue with your statement about sales equating to merit, I have to ask what you though was so "simply good" about the plot? I believe OP is looking for specifics. If you were at a race track and asked why the victor won and I told you his "engine was good" would that explain how to build your own car?

On topic, Stephanie Meyer managed to synthesize her memories as a girl in a repressed Mormon community into a viable story (after co-opting the archetypal character that is the vampire) that played to the exact emotions of girls who see themselves as "repressed," be that mentally, emotionally, or sexually. In order to capture that zeitgeist you must have the experience and the intellect to present it to others or the empathy to imagine an experience you haven't had. Either way, good luck OP!

I can't describe what was good about the plot in any detail because it is the plot. Premise, is the little 1-2 line description of the overall conflict in the story. Something like: "teenage girl falls in love with vampire." This sucks. The premise for harry potter is no better. Plot, is the way the story unfolds from start to finish, the story, all the twists and small conflicts and questions that aren't answered until the end ect... Both harry potter and twilight have good plots. Admittedly, the plot of twilight was predictable, but it was still well executed, and interesting, and even managed to have at least one minor twist per book that you didn't expect, occasionally even a big one. Twilight has merit because it is interesting, and it keeps you reading, which is the end goal of any modern piece of fiction. Read the link in my earlier post if you still don't get it.

 

[spartan231490]

simply put, the plot was good.

Same way Justin Bieber's or the Jonas Brothers' or whoever came before songs are good. In other words, they know how to exploit an audience. There is nothing more to it than this. There are no redeemable qualities to any discerning reader. Nothing.

You. Are. an idiot. the books only sold so well because people enjoy reading them, therefore they have merit. Also, I love how you assume that out of 89 million copies sold, none were purchased by "Discerning Readers". I have read LoTR, To Kill a Mockingbird, Scarlet Letter, Great Gatsby, SoT, WoT, Night angel Trilogy, ect. I have read several classics, but I own a full bookshelf of fantasy books. Twilight has redeeming qualities, just not many of them. Here's the thing, it doesn't need many because it's one good quality(the plot) is good enough to make it a pretty decent book. Does it deserve to be as popular as it is? HELL NO. but it isn't a worthless piece of trash either.

Very well stated. Glad people can be mad while still keep a level head and provide a good argument. Honestly I think in hindsight Twilight is better than the novel Invasion for Magic: The Gathering and that includes a heavy bias because I dislike Twilight and love the Magic novels.

I try, but it's hard sometimes. And I def know what you mean about bias. I love the series Deltora Quest, but having reread it, it's at maybe a 3rd grade writing level. There are multiple typos per paragraph; the plot is simple, predictable, and childish; the premise is simple too; and the characters are relatively shallow.

 

[The Hive Mind]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

You should ask about Lord of the Rings or A Tale of Two Cities. Those have sold <150 million and <200 million, respectively.

But they aren't exactly books that kids go out and buy in their thousands are they?

Books like Harry Potter and Twilight are much more relevant to a young writer like the OP than those two.




My opinion of Twilight: I can totally see why some people like it, but I have to say that if you're writing try your very best to flesh your characters out in more than just shallow, superficial ways, like giving them brightly coloured hair or weird scars -- the Twilight characters had hardly any depth.

The reason it was popular amongst its demographic of teenage girls was that it used vampires, and vampires are cool, used the supernatural, and Harry Potter made that cool, was a love story, which is ch-ching for the teen girls market but most of all it was marketed quite securely at the newly invented "young adult" genre; obviously, no young adults read it; its all teens, but the point is that teens read it and think it makes them mature.

If it was marketed as an adult book, teens would've avoided it, whereas young adult makes it seem mature without being something their parents would read.

But jesus, Twilight sucks ass dude

 

[maninahat]

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?

Like Dracula? or almost any movie monsters...they're all after virgins...Which surprisingly would seem to put forward the idea that sluts are safe from vampires...

They should make a series about a Polynesian god who wants to throw Bella into his volcano (but must fight the urge to do so).

 

[DudeistBelieve]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

Stephanie Meyer created something she could market towards tweens. It's sex, it's a romance novel.

Dude Snooki from the Jersey Shore got published to. You want to get writing tips from her?

 

[Amorphisbob]

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?

Like Dracula? or almost any movie monsters...they're all after virgins...Which surprisingly would seem to put forward the idea that sluts are safe from vampires...

They should make a series about a Polynesian god who wants to throw Bella into his volcano (but must fight the urge to do so).

 

[starwarsgeek]

I am not a fan of the books, but I'm not a hater either.

A friend convinced me to read them back in high school, and I was bored and didn't have anything else to read at the time. Despite not liking the main characters, I found several of the minor characters to be enjoyable--especially Alice.

And here's a few things that I disliked about them...I figure this should be just as useful as what I liked...or maybe even more useful.

Spoiler

1. If you're writing with a first-person naration (which I wouldn't recomend. As a reader, I rarely enjoy first person), then don't have a pessimistic, depressed, low self-esteem type as a main character. At best, it just makes the book depressing, and at worst it can make your main character seem whiny instead of troubled. Also, do not have the main character be absent or unconscience during the big finale. Off-screen (er...off-page?) climaxes can be pretty annoying.

2. If you do have a character who's greatest flaw is a low self esteem, then do not have the character resolve these issues by simply gaining super powers. It makes the character seem shallow if strength and sparkliness is all it takes to make them happy.

3. Do not spend half a book setting up for a big war only to have the two sides resolve their issues peacefully after a couple of skirmishes. If you plan to solve the climax peacefully, then spend the time before that having the characters look for a peaceful solution that doesn't involve building an army.

 

[motyr]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

You should ask about Lord of the Rings or A Tale of Two Cities. Those have sold <150 million and <200 million, respectively.

If you're going by that logic, you should ask yourself about the collective works of William Shakespeare. I'm sure he's sold tons. No disrespect to Macgyvercas, of course, but LOTR, Tale of Two Cities, Shakespeare, etc. have probably sold a significant portion, if not most, of their copies since the respective writers' deaths, because, well, they're extremely archetypal and influential on the rest of the literary world.

If you want to sell millions of copies during your lifetime, OP, you'll have to sacrifice your love for the art for the art's sake (sorry to be so cynical). If you're comfortable with that, do what's necessary: write a book that doesn't do anything "new", per se, but does what it intends to well. It needs to appeal to a mass population. The Twilight books essentially capitalized on the same material, premise, selling point, etc, of Harlequin Romance novels, but they were initially meant to be for teenagers, not their mothers. Why do romance novels sell lots? Because they (try to) appeal to something primally human - sexuality and sexual tension. People like sex, and they like the feeling of reading something "juicy" or something that maybe they shouldn't be in a moral sense. The porn industry sees this, takes it to an extreme, and makes billions on it.

Now, I'm not saying writing pulp-soft-porno-fiction is the key to success, but realizing your potential market's desires is. Do you want to write books for women? men? teenagers? adults? the elderly? These are all questions you have to ask yourself, silly may they be. Once you realize that, then try to appeal to something you know is nearly universal to that given group.

 

[gillebro]

Yeah, everyone else has said it pretty well. The thing about Twilight is that it appeals BIG TIME to a pretty exclusive market (teenage girls), and Meyer, for all of her faults (not the least of which being her appalling writing style. For somebody who allegedly has a degree in English her writing is abominable. I've read worse writing, of course, but not in, like, legitimately-published volumes) seems to know her target audience pretty damn well, because she gives them everything they want in Twilight. The books are a chance for teenage girls to put themselves in Bella's shoes and imagine they have two incredibly good-looking guys chasing after them. The guy she ends up with gives her immortality, riches, and incredible beauty. She sparkles in the sunlight too! It is the ultimate fantasy for the target audience, and Meyer's honed in on that to an admirable degree.

I think you'll find a lot of other popular authors, while not necessarily being what we could legitimately call good writers, have managed to do a similar thing.

 

[Lieju]

Just an additional question for fans:

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?

Because it's so "romantic" he waited for so long for "the right one". Also they wouldn't think he is really that old, since he hasn't aged.
The idea that he has turned all those other women away, but let's her in because she is special and can offer him something no-one else ever has before, is appealing to some people.
That is very common in bad fanfiction, for example.

Also add in the "he is dangerous but she can change her"-thing for maximum effect.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

It does not require an expert to figure out. I am not a fan of the series but I do know a bit of psychology. Basically the popularity comes with the vague descriptions of Bella allowing her to be easily identifiable by the target audience as well as tugging on yet another easily identifiable string (social awkwardness, because lets face it we have all felt that way at some point).

However other characters in the series are described using both heavy and vague descriptive terms. For example putting a lot of effort into describing certain body parts but keeping characters as a whole blank by using subjective terms. This means you get a description of a character but the gap is filled by the imagination. The term "perfect" is used a lot in twilight to that effect.


This and many other factors come into play in Twilight, but sadly I lack the time to write them all.

P.S Sorry if this seems rushed, I did not have a lot of time to type this out and I have had a long day, but felt compelled to post because well I also am a writer (well amateur writer) and shared the same curiosity as you did.

 

[darthotaku]

personally, the only thing that appealed to me about the twilight books was the concept. ie. the guy loves her but is so obsesed with blood that at any moment he might kill her. unfortunately I was dissapointed because this rarely seemed to come up in the story, and when it did it could have been easilly avoided.

the hi-light of the series for me was

Spoiler

when he has to suck some other vampires venom out of her body and almost doesn't stop.

unfortunately it was too little too late. if you want to learn from the book, read that part and think of it from his perspective.