U.K. Devs Say Videogame Courses at Universities Are Bunk
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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Welcome to the club of artists not learning useful *skills* within arts uni, nor musicians learning anything such at our musical academies and god forbid you take up a course like sculpture or such, because you will be left on your own.
Really...I've had too much experience with academia, along with my brother, to know that they indulge in the philosophy far more than they should with actually...ya know...teaching advanced skills, tricks and abilities, things that might actually prove useful to the students.
Hilariously enough, computers at least have a scientific and measurable basis from which to draw on and to see the older generation being unable to grasp it as such and take advantage by teaching the students these useful things is, once again, wholly unsurprising.
Really...I've had too much experience with academia, along with my brother, to know that they indulge in the philosophy far more than they should with actually...ya know...teaching advanced skills, tricks and abilities, things that might actually prove useful to the students.
Hilariously enough, computers at least have a scientific and measurable basis from which to draw on and to see the older generation being unable to grasp it as such and take advantage by teaching the students these useful things is, once again, wholly unsurprising.
Its funny you mention those, when i was looking to apply about 2 years ago those Unis didn't come up with anything to do with Games Design at all. The main 3 i know about are:D_987 said:
Huddersfield
Newport
Stafford
I'm at Stafford and this is their 10th year of the whole Games Department (there are about 6 different degrees focusing on different aspects) and what i have learnt has been so usefull. Although you can say a generic "Games Design" course is useless, ones that focus on aspects such as modelling, scripting, audio concepts cannot be. I mean where else are people going to learn professionally how to do this stuff? We all know the industry is changing and so people with degrees may be higher above the rest, who knows?
One thing i can safely say is that if i didn't do this course i would have no clue on how to survive in the actual industry, i wouldn't have any skills and so i probably wouldn't have any chance at a job.
Already got some connections in Codemasters and currently convincing Paul Barnett of Bioware Mythic to come for a lecture (if he answers my emails! ><) and already made some small games with a big one in preproductionboholikeu said:
I was considering doing a Game Design specific degree but one of my friends studying in D.I.T (Dublin Institute of Technology) got me into a lecture Molyneux was giving and he basically said all that.
Now I think I'll just do a standard Computer Science degree.
Also after meeting him in person I don't think he mis-hypes his games on purpose, he just seems to get really excited talking and says a bit more than he should... nice guy.
Now I think I'll just do a standard Computer Science degree.
Also after meeting him in person I don't think he mis-hypes his games on purpose, he just seems to get really excited talking and says a bit more than he should... nice guy.
As someone who has got his Design grades and having several friends finish Uni in Dundee, i have to agree, the Uk Uni courses are just plain crap, over half the stuff i've had to learn to catch up wasnt included in my course, and i feel my Deploma is rather useless compared to my experance.
Im not trying to be arsehole but you live in completely different country so don't think that really makes your personal experience as valid as might appear. But respect for actually being in the industry.uppitycracker said:
/shrug the industry really isn't all that different over there compared to over here. i could be wrong, but i'm just voicing what i've actually seen firsthand. personally, i don't have ANY college experience, but my timing made it a little easier than it is now.murphy7801 said:
That's because they don't focus on games design, they focus on programming, art and animation. Games Design isn't typically a graduate level job, though if you get the opportunity well done. Though I do know of those you mentioned those I previously stated hold the greater reputations in terms of gaming related courses.Ranooth said:
The problem is specializing. If you dabble in a lot of areas but master none you're useless to a large organization. Granted it might increase your chances of employability in smaller development teams.
Fair enough; I wish you good luck in the future.
My friend has useless degree for computer gaming so had go work for a furniture design company with his degree. The industry might not be but the university system is quite different in regards to education.uppitycracker said:
Yeah, I'm doing a correspondence course in the UK, and the people that created that had much the same opinion about what a lot of the universities were up to.
(and citing much the same arguments that molyneux gives.)
Personally, the course material is pretty good, but I regret starting the course because I know most of what was in it already.
Though they are a game company, so they should know.
But... The universities seem to have taken note of this course, because quite a few of them are asking to use the course materials.
I don't know really. But we'll see if the course I'm doing really has any higher regard in the industry than whatever else there might be in the UK...
No real way to tell unless you see the end results yourself.
(and citing much the same arguments that molyneux gives.)
Personally, the course material is pretty good, but I regret starting the course because I know most of what was in it already.
Though they are a game company, so they should know.
But... The universities seem to have taken note of this course, because quite a few of them are asking to use the course materials.
I don't know really. But we'll see if the course I'm doing really has any higher regard in the industry than whatever else there might be in the UK...
No real way to tell unless you see the end results yourself.
I think his point is, not everyone can design games.
"Designing" games is really the easy part. These courses seem to do a poor job of teaching proper development of games.
Design is only a very small part of making games. Let's say all these kids graduate and want to find jobs as game designers.. They'll all have to basically start their own indy company, because most "designer" jobs are oldhat positions.. To get in with a "real" game company you need to start in development. Have a skill, and use it. If the skill allows you some artistic license (such as animation or graphic design), then as you gain seniority, you'll start to have a small say on those things and may work yourself all the way up to an art director some day. On your way up there, you start pitching ideas to the right people, you might get a design position instead.
Every "grunt" job in the industry has it's own career path (and sometimes luck makes them veer, leap and jump, but I digress). "Game Design" doesn't. You have to start at one of the more specialized mechanical jobs, work your way up the chain of command, give the right ideas to the right people, show the company that your ideas can be banked on to produce good work.. Then if you're lucky and persistent, you can get yourself a design position.
I have an idea.
An indie team that wants big budget work (or mid-budget *shrug*) should basically contract a university's "games" department. Hire the students, get them working on a real game that's really going to be released if they can finish it (and it's an automatic F if it's your work that contributes to it not finishing).. Payment is rewarded upon a successful game launch.
That way, the university gets a better understanding of where it should promote a course and raise the "THIS COURSE WILL GET YOU INTO THE GAMES INDUSTRY" flag, rather then just taking a guess of it. Potential students will get real first hand experience working in the industry. Probably making contacts in the industry (or at least recognizing names and faces as real people). Indie developers will get more work out of less money (the kids are technically in school while they're working), they'd be able to pour more "money" (ie "labor") into their project, freeing up more real money for marketing.
Of course there would be many technical hurdles, but I think it's an idea.
"Designing" games is really the easy part. These courses seem to do a poor job of teaching proper development of games.
Design is only a very small part of making games. Let's say all these kids graduate and want to find jobs as game designers.. They'll all have to basically start their own indy company, because most "designer" jobs are oldhat positions.. To get in with a "real" game company you need to start in development. Have a skill, and use it. If the skill allows you some artistic license (such as animation or graphic design), then as you gain seniority, you'll start to have a small say on those things and may work yourself all the way up to an art director some day. On your way up there, you start pitching ideas to the right people, you might get a design position instead.
Every "grunt" job in the industry has it's own career path (and sometimes luck makes them veer, leap and jump, but I digress). "Game Design" doesn't. You have to start at one of the more specialized mechanical jobs, work your way up the chain of command, give the right ideas to the right people, show the company that your ideas can be banked on to produce good work.. Then if you're lucky and persistent, you can get yourself a design position.
I have an idea.
An indie team that wants big budget work (or mid-budget *shrug*) should basically contract a university's "games" department. Hire the students, get them working on a real game that's really going to be released if they can finish it (and it's an automatic F if it's your work that contributes to it not finishing).. Payment is rewarded upon a successful game launch.
That way, the university gets a better understanding of where it should promote a course and raise the "THIS COURSE WILL GET YOU INTO THE GAMES INDUSTRY" flag, rather then just taking a guess of it. Potential students will get real first hand experience working in the industry. Probably making contacts in the industry (or at least recognizing names and faces as real people). Indie developers will get more work out of less money (the kids are technically in school while they're working), they'd be able to pour more "money" (ie "labor") into their project, freeing up more real money for marketing.
Of course there would be many technical hurdles, but I think it's an idea.
i think you misread what i wrote then. i said that they aren't COMPLETELY useless, just mostly haha. the only good thing you gain from those classes is the ability to show yer work.murphy7801 said:
To be honest I'm hardly surprised. I view most "Game design" courses as extremely sketchy to begin with. I'd be aiming for more "traditional" (and oh do I hate that word) degrees were I aiming for a job in the industry. Maybe some English/literary degree, as Haruhi knows they could do with a few more decent writers and maybe some decent dubbing voice actors too. METAL GEAR!? FOXDIE!? OTACON!? LIQUID!? GREY FOX!? RAIDEN!? HEISENBURG'S UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE!?
This...is an interesting idea. Obviously it'd need to be tested in small batches first, but if nothing else I'd like to see the course such an idea takes, even if it ends up crashing and burning.Altorin said:
Well, we have school courses on Music and Literature, and both of those arts are far better designed and developed than videogames at the moment. Just dismissing the course strikes me as pretty arrogant and ignorant.
If the video game's industry, like most entertainment industries, is anything the way I think it is, it most likely boils down to luck, luck, connections, luck, and connections. Depending on where you specialize, I don't think the video game industry is very "degree-heavy" so to speak. It's mainly just connections and luck, make friends with someone in the entertainment industry, and pray you get a break.
I plan on entering the Film industry someday, and from there the video game industry if I become a big enough player. The film industry is heavily based on luck and the connections you have, how else can you explain how Uwe Boll/any hack who thinks their movies are worth a damn (Hopefully, I'm not included in that group) are still in business? The video games industry, I would imagine, would be pretty similar if a bit more reliant on skill.
I plan on entering the Film industry someday, and from there the video game industry if I become a big enough player. The film industry is heavily based on luck and the connections you have, how else can you explain how Uwe Boll/any hack who thinks their movies are worth a damn (Hopefully, I'm not included in that group) are still in business? The video games industry, I would imagine, would be pretty similar if a bit more reliant on skill.
