Ubisoft: "DLC is Pretty Much Accepted Now"

black_knight1337

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Nazulu said:
Yes it should. The whole experience should be fun to go through. If you've made a game where people feel the need to skip parts of it, then you have failed as a designer. In fact, I'd say you failed as an artist.
Congrats on ignoring what I said. Some people don't much time to fully invest in games that are 20+ hours long and are fine with paying extra to speed up the process. Giving them the option to do so doesn't hurt the experience of regular players at all.

This DLC is just taking advantage of people.
Sure, but the demand was already there. 3rd parties have been offering similar services for multiplayer games for years, and now we're getting legitimate alternatives. In the case in question, it doesn't affect the average player at all. It only provides a service that a relatively small number of people want to take advantage of. I really can't see the point in arguing against it when it's only an optional service that has no impact on the experience of others.
 

JET1971

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Sgt Pepper said:
JET1971 said:
Bethesda DLC after Horse Armor for the Fallout games and Elder Scrolls I do not mind buying at all because they expand upon the game and add allot to it, even Horse Armor wasn't a bad deal as far as DLC because it wasn't $20, it was a very reasonable amount for what you got compared to some games these days charging more for even less.
iirc Bethesda were one of the first to do DLC as we now know it. Arguably they did have mis-steps with Oblivion but, it could be said, this was very much an experiment.

I will agree that, post-Oblivion, Bethesda have been spot on with their DLC, even more so with FO:NV, Skyrim and Dishonored where the DLC was published through Steam, making it easy to purchase and download (unlike say Dragon Age 2 and messing about with Bioware points).

I think DLC, when done right, is a good thing for consumers and publishers/developers. When done badly it is poor-value, confusing for the consumer and, ultimately, diminish the brand.
Yeah Horse Armor was the experiment and it did 2 things, exploded in their faces with outrage and sold like hotcakes at a lumberjack camp. Bethesda saw that DLC makes them money but learned that cheap skins with no real content wasn't going to maintain fans and keep a good customer base. Thus they have provided higher quality DLC that is expansion packs giving players more things to do and does not take anything away from the game if you do not have the DLC. Skyrim was epic without DLC and didn't require any to get more than your monies worth, the DLC just added to it.

Fallout New Vegas DLC though bothers me because there is a story wrapped up in them that could be a whole game in itself but split up into several of the offered DLC packs. if you buy the first one you would need to buy all to complete the story. I am glad they didn't leave each one with a cliffhanger or feel incomplete but still broken up like that meant you needed to buy all the DLC to get the full story from the DLC.

Ubi couldn't even manage Horse Armor without fucking over customers and would see the outrage as a good thing. I am beginning to think Ubisoft is a company run by greedy masochists who cannot find a sadist to fulfill them. Nickle and dime customers or screw them over with DRM just to get them to be angry so they can orgasm over the outrage and hate they receive from the anti customer business practices.
 

Johnson McGee

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I've seen two attitudes towards 'acceptance' of DLC. The first is those that buy into it completely, these people I view as akin to the 'whales' of F2P games and are correspondingly uncommon. The second and vastly more common are people that simply delay purchasing any game with DLC until a 'complete' GOTY edition comes out.

So congrats Ubisoft, you've succeeded in making people accept DLC... at the expense of a large number of full-priced game sales.
 

alj

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Nov 20, 2009
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Downloadable content that is developed after the game has finished, that's fine we understand your art team may have to be doing some concept art on it or the programming team may have to work on some new tool but the DLC should not be done and held back that is a dick move.

I know its hard to understand for AAA publishers but how about you make a good game that people want to buy and then make DLC people want to buy, not hold stuff back or sell weapon skins for £5 to try to squeeze as much money out of your crappy game as you can before people notice its shit.

That is when DLC is accepted.

We do get expatiation packs from time to time XCOM Diablo are 2 examples i can think of off the top of my head.

Oh and ubisoft you don't need to squeeze as much money from DLC if you don't overspend to a retarded level, you can make some amazing games for just a few million.

http://www.divinityoriginalsin.com/
 

Nazulu

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black_knight1337 said:
Nazulu said:
Yes it should. The whole experience should be fun to go through. If you've made a game where people feel the need to skip parts of it, then you have failed as a designer. In fact, I'd say you failed as an artist.
Congrats on ignoring what I said. Some people don't much time to fully invest in games that are 20+ hours long and are fine with paying extra to speed up the process. Giving them the option to do so doesn't hurt the experience of regular players at all.
Sarcasm. How original.

You missed my point. I have to repeat, the whole experience should be fun to go through. So if some part of the game is made a tedious chore on purpose then the whole thing is retarded.

As for giving them an option, I already covered this. Give us cheat codes. I used them in so many classic games before, by companies that don't swim in money like Cashtivision and Blizzaro and Ubisoap.

This DLC is just taking advantage of people.
Sure, but the demand was already there. 3rd parties have been offering similar services for multiplayer games for years, and now we're getting legitimate alternatives. In the case in question, it doesn't affect the average player at all. It only provides a service that a relatively small number of people want to take advantage of. I really can't see the point in arguing against it when it's only an optional service that has no impact on the experience of others.
We are still talking about the time saving DLC, aren't we? In that case, I can say cheat codes again. Those people who demand for this DLC won't give a shit about it anymore if cheats are available.
 

black_knight1337

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Nazulu said:
Sarcasm. How original.

You missed my point. I have to repeat, the whole experience should be fun to go through. So if some part of the game is made a tedious chore on purpose then the whole thing is retarded.
Sarcastic, but true. This case has no impact on regular players at all. Nothing was dragged out so that you would feel the need to purchase anything to skip/speed it up.

As for giving them an option, I already covered this. Give us cheat codes. I used them in so many classic games before, by companies that don't swim in money like Cashtivision and Blizzaro.

We are still talking about the time saving DLC, aren't we? In that case, I can say cheat codes again. Those people who demand for this DLC won't give a shit about it anymore if cheats are available.
Yeah, cheats are always another option. But they've been gone from most games for quite a while now. Even still, cheating is still an easily accessible option. A quick search showed me options for god mode, unlimited money, no reloading and teleporting. At the end of the day, it's up to the player to decide on how they want to play they game. If they want to buy their way through it then let them, it doesn't affect anyone else so why does it really matter?
 

Nazulu

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black_knight1337 said:
Nazulu said:
Sarcasm. How original.

You missed my point. I have to repeat, the whole experience should be fun to go through. So if some part of the game is made a tedious chore on purpose then the whole thing is retarded.
Sarcastic, but true. This case has no impact on regular players at all. Nothing was dragged out so that you would feel the need to purchase anything to skip/speed it up.
Not true at all actually. And saying regular players are not bothered by it is not proof of anything. C'mon, you know how this works.

And even if this game wasn't made to drag out, then there should be no need for that DLC at all.

As for giving them an option, I already covered this. Give us cheat codes. I used them in so many classic games before, by companies that don't swim in money like Cashtivision and Blizzaro.

We are still talking about the time saving DLC, aren't we? In that case, I can say cheat codes again. Those people who demand for this DLC won't give a shit about it anymore if cheats are available.
Yeah, cheats are always another option. But they've been gone from most games for quite a while now. Even still, cheating is still an easily accessible option. A quick search showed me options for god mode, unlimited money, no reloading and teleporting. At the end of the day, it's up to the player to decide on how they want to play they game. If they want to buy their way through it then let them, it doesn't affect anyone else so why does it really matter?
It does matter because not everyone knows you can download cheats for these games. It's seems like most people sometimes, especially people just coming into gaming. And I'm not sure you can even 'cheat' on all console games. It's taking advantage of those who are ignorant and that's all. It really shouldn't be a surprise with all the new annoying stunts and DRM these big publishers pull almost every year.

Also, I believe the future should be providing more options to make more people happy, combined with how people should be able to experience the campaign any way they wish, so it might as well be there for convenience.
 

black_knight1337

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Nazulu said:
And saying regular players are not bothered by it is not proof of anything. C'mon, you know how this works.
By that, I meant that it's presence has no impact on the experience of regular players. As in, no excessive time barriers or grinding.

It does matter because not everyone knows you can download cheats for these games. It's seems like most people sometimes, especially people just coming into gaming.
That's a bit of a cop-out. If they know how to play games then surely they can just throw " cheats" into google.

And I'm not sure you can even 'cheat' on all console games. It's taking advantage of those who are ignorant and that's all. It really shouldn't be a surprise with all the new annoying stunts and DRM these big publishers pull almost every year.
Actually, after doing a quick search on it, it seems like there are traditional cheats in the game.
Armed To The Teeth: Successfully complete 90 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat gives unlimited ammunition.
Arrr Matey!: Successfully complete 20 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows pirate speak for Edward.
Celestial Navigation: Successfully complete 10 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows time to be set and locked.
Dead Men Tell No Tales: Successfully complete 70 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat provides invincibility for Edward and the Jackdaw.
Deceased Crew: Successfully complete all 100 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows skeletal crew.
Loaded To The Gunwhale: Successfully complete 50 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat makes Edward always drunk.
No Quarter: Successfully complete 30 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat prevents Edward and the Jackdaw from regaining health.
Poseidon's Will: Successfully complete 60 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows sea wave intensity to be set.
Scourge Of The Seven Seas: Successfully complete 40 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows always maximum wanted level.
Shiver Me Timbers: Successfully complete 80 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat changes enemies into strange creatures
But yeah, as I already agreed, it is taking advantage of people.

Also, I believe the future should be providing more options to make more people happy, combined with how people should be able to experience the campaign any way they wish, so it might as well be there for convenience.
That's exactly what this is. A purely optional service that some people want. As long as it doesn't impact regular players then I can't see why it's a problem.
 

lostlevel

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I avoid DLC but I haven't bought a new triple A title in a while or one of the new consoles so I guess I'm really yet to see what the current state of it is.
 

Nazulu

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black_knight1337 said:
Nazulu said:
And saying regular players are not bothered by it is not proof of anything. C'mon, you know how this works.
By that, I meant that it's presence has no impact on the experience of regular players. As in, no excessive time barriers or grinding.

It does matter because not everyone knows you can download cheats for these games. It's seems like most people sometimes, especially people just coming into gaming.
That's a bit of a cop-out. If they know how to play games then surely they can just throw " cheats" into google.

And I'm not sure you can even 'cheat' on all console games. It's taking advantage of those who are ignorant and that's all. It really shouldn't be a surprise with all the new annoying stunts and DRM these big publishers pull almost every year.
Actually, after doing a quick search on it, it seems like there are traditional cheats in the game.
Armed To The Teeth: Successfully complete 90 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat gives unlimited ammunition.
Arrr Matey!: Successfully complete 20 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows pirate speak for Edward.
Celestial Navigation: Successfully complete 10 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows time to be set and locked.
Dead Men Tell No Tales: Successfully complete 70 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat provides invincibility for Edward and the Jackdaw.
Deceased Crew: Successfully complete all 100 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows skeletal crew.
Loaded To The Gunwhale: Successfully complete 50 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat makes Edward always drunk.
No Quarter: Successfully complete 30 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat prevents Edward and the Jackdaw from regaining health.
Poseidon's Will: Successfully complete 60 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows sea wave intensity to be set.
Scourge Of The Seven Seas: Successfully complete 40 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat allows always maximum wanted level.
Shiver Me Timbers: Successfully complete 80 Abstergo Challenges. This cheat changes enemies into strange creatures
But yeah, as I already agreed, it is taking advantage of people.

Also, I believe the future should be providing more options to make more people happy, combined with how people should be able to experience the campaign any way they wish, so it might as well be there for convenience.
That's exactly what this is. A purely optional service that some people want. As long as it doesn't impact regular players then I can't see why it's a problem.

Hope you don't mind the spoiler

Anyway, so there is no grinding chores or tedious challenges, and there are traditional cheats, so why is the DLC there then? Didn't they throw in all the cheats? Very odd.

And it's not a cop out at all that so many don't know about cheats for games. I'm sure most games don't have traditional cheats, but with DLC cheats I don't know. And many don't know or can even be bothered to download cheats into all their games. And once again, they were all there for classic games. That's all the options we still want to see, isn't it?

It's a step backwards this whole thing. It could be all just there, but some of it's still behind a pay wall. Extra content I can understand of course, but not this.
 

Slash2x

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Bah. Define DLC first. You know what DLC I do not mind? http://store.steampowered.com/app/245970/ that is DLC that came out a few months ago. For a game that was released TWO YEARS ago. That kind of DLC people like, you know the stuff that used to be expansion packs. Day one DLC though? Well go fuck your self UBI that is all I have to say on that.
 

mysecondlife

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So a person I know was curious about Assassin's Creed 3 because Fourth of July.

So I would put my PS3 disc of AC3 and tried to load the save file within PS3.

It says "Could not load. Required DLC is missing"
[sub][sub](rant in capital letter incoming)[/sub][/sub]

WHAT. YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT I CAN'T PLAY THIS SHITTY GAME THAT I PAID FOR BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE NECESSARY DLC?
FUCK YOUR DLC UBISOFT. FUCK EM.

OK fine. I'm not that mad because AC3 is a very very subpar game and nothing was lost by not playing it. But with their statement of "DLC is pretty much accepted now", I don't want to pay for their product anymore (not that I have recently). I'll just buy used games for every ubisoft games from now on. Cheaper and hassle free as far as I can tell.
 

TelHybrid

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AstaresPanda said:
TelHybrid said:
DLC that expands on a complete game = acceptable.

DLC that completes an incomplete game (especially on-disc "DLC") = unacceptable.
pretty simple you would think, but i guess its not greedy enough and thats what it all boils down to.
It's unfortunate that what's good for business in the short term seems to be more of a priority than long term business strategies. Right now games publishers are in the mentality of "who cares if we lose customers? we'll always get more", but eventually they'll run out.

On top of that, the casual Wii Sports/Call of Duty/Fifa/Farmville demographic that games companies are profiting from currently wont be around forever. The Wii's horribly poor software sales will show this.

I think that frankly we're in the middle of another video game market crash. Calling it now.
 

soulfire130

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I like DLC that is done right, Ubisoft Not the crap you and others try to pull. From Software's DLC to Dark Souls is an example of how to do it right in my opinion.
 

thewatergamer

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Here's why you don't see people complaining about it, they have moved on from complaining to boycotting your games and taking their money to other games that treat the idea of DLC right, DLC isn't an inherently bad thing we have seen it done right with several games like skyrim offering 20$ DragonBorn "DLC" that adds a whole new continent to the world and tons of extra content for a very reasonable price, what people don't accept is the BS "DLC" like CoD map packs or skins packs that charge you 15$ or 5$ costumes added on as "DLC" This is clearly just more PR speak BS, either ubisoft is lying through their teeth (again) and trying to claim that "DLC is totally ok with gamer's now right guys?" or is so stupid and out of touch with their audience that they actually believe it
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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Well, if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. But only in cash, up front. Still with me? I'm totally on the level. Heh heh heh...
 

FoolKiller

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Weaver said:
Because we've just given up telling publishers we hate it. We screamed for years about it, you fucking just did it anyways, so that's that. I stopped buying your games.
I just bought the game and no DLC or just waited till the complete version came out.

As for season's passes, I refuse to ever buy one that is smoke and mirrors. I will buy it when all the content is out already. The only exception has been Telltales episodic stuff because that's really just buying the game.
 

Atmos Duality

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EDIT: Now that my router isn't being retarded half the time, I can finally respond..

black_knight1337 said:
No it shouldn't. Some people have a high income and are short on time so they don't mind paying extra to get through the game quicker.
"I want to get through this in my spare time...but I can't be bothered to actually play it in my spare time."

That doesn't describe behavior attributed to enjoying a game (or anything really); it describes paying someone to do your chores.

Here's what the dlc in question do:
-Instant upgrade for your ships storage along with some supplies
-Revealing the location of all the collectibles in the game
-Revealing all activity locations in the game
-Instant unlock for high end ship upgrades
All these are doing are making relatively easy tasks even easier. There's no reason why anyone who can sink a reasonable amount of time into the game would need to buy any of those. And even if you did want to speed things up, there's a number of tools you can use to do so.
So basically, Pay 2 Win.
I hope you realize that is not a compelling argument from the player's perspective.

Following that logic we shouldn't have any form of progression system in games. Just have everything fully upgraded from the start.
Well there's a loaded argument, since any point I make you can arbitrarily twist by defining it as "progress".
So what is "progress"?

Under an arbitrary definition, it could describe:
-Going from world 1-1 to world 8-3 in Super Mario Bros
-Spending the required 100+ hours grinding to acquire top tier gear in most any MMO. (without pay2win or other such shortcuts)

Obviously, those two are very, very different in terms of design and purpose.
Super Mario Bros, the content is 100% front loaded. You buy the game, you play the game, and you try to beat it.

For virtually any MMORPG you can name, the purpose is to provide bits of fun/reward between hours of busywork.

In design, the fine line between grind and progress is context and purpose; no matter how great/small.

Is the system of progress put in place as a test of the player's skill and reason?
Or just of one's patience?

A good game introduces elements/systems to add complexity to the game, not just for "things to do" or "stuff to get".
Busywork is a huge problem in gaming; it's appealing to developers because including it increases playtime at little effort on their part; Put simply, in design, grind mechanics are a copout of effort.

Once a player recognizes that fact, they're going to feel annoyed and cheated.
The fact that companies are monetizing that last step isn't helping.

Just because some people are willing to pay to make their progression through a game faster doesn't mean that the game is excessively grindy.
But it does. In the very context you're describing, the player has an incentive to skip content.
A good game, even a long one, can and should be enjoyed/completed in portions.

The moment you argued for an option to skip an element because of time, is the moment you admitted that portions of the game are undesirable solely for the amount of time they take.

It's an admission that the opportunity cost to play is worth less than the monetary cost to avoid it, and that is completely backwards when you consider video gaming as something to ENJOY in your spare time.

Just because some people TOLERATE it while others don't does not excuse its presence or deny its existence.

Far better is the game that doesn't waste the player's time with busywork of any kind, but rewards their skill and willingness to improve. And if the game isn't about skill (in some measure), then either the player's presence is meaningless or the game is just a chore; and I can think of better chores to do than those I have to pay for.
 

Mikeyfell

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they're creating their own metrics and using those metrics to justify the business practices that led to metrics being relevant!

THEY'RE LEARNING!!!!
I told you we should have taken them out when we had the chance!

I don't care... As long as it's actual content for a game I want to play I'll buy it.
and if I feel like the game was cut down to facilitate selling extra DLC (Saint's Row...) I just won't buy the game at all

at this point having a season pass available at launch is just par for the course...
OH NO! I'VE BEEN INFECTED!!!!! *Gunshot*