Ukraine

Silvanus

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Look, could you just admit that you want the USSR back and you don't care who dies along the way, and save us all time? Every word you write proves me correct about you.
He may want the return of the USSR, but that's not what he's advocating for here.

His favoured course of action involves a group of virulent anti-communists and ultra-capitalists (who are inhabiting the old state machinery of the USSR) conquering smaller democratic nations. So the goal here involves recapturing the imperial ambitions of the Russian Empire/ USSR, but with none of that awkward left-wing stuff like workers' protections, minority rights, voting, or international solidarity.
 
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Thaluikhain

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He may want the return of the USSR, but that's not what he's advocating for here.

He's advocating for a group of virulent anti-communists and ultra-capitalists (who are inhabiting the old state machinery of the USSR) to expand and conquer smaller democratic nations. So the goal here involves recapturing the imperial ambitions of the Russian Empire/ USSR, but with none of that awkward left-wing stuff like workers' protections, minority rights, voting, or international solidarity.
Well, the USSR lasted a long time, some periods much more left-wing than others. Maybe he wants to scramble for territory at the tail end of WW2?
 

Dalisclock

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The United States and United Kingdom have indicated that if Zelensky reaches a peace agreement with Russia, sanctions will continue; Zelensky has not been empowered to use them as a bargaining chip. The only conclusion to draw from that information is that the United States has committed itself to damaging Russia at the expense of Ukraine. This after contributing to the rise of tensions in the region.

So yeah, NATO fucking bad.
Russia has been engaged in an aggressive invasion chock full of war crimes and destruction of Ukrainian industry and food supplies for the past two months. This isn't a case where Russia can go "Oops, my bad" and just pretend this never happened.

Very best case involves significant compensation to Ukraine from Russia to rebuild everything they broke. And even then nobody is gonna fucking trust Russia to not do the same fucking thing again the moment they think they can get away with it.

So shut it with the "Poor Russia. NATO is being mean" Crap.
 

Agema

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But that doesn't bother you.
Mostly I'm bothered by your absurd double standards and desperate groping around for reasons to excuse Russia for doing things you condemn NATO for. At least most of the people you're arguing against have the consistency of opposing unwarranted aggression no matter who carries it out.
 
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Seanchaidh

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At least most of the people you're arguing against have the consistency of opposing unwarranted aggression no matter who carries it out.
Literally everyone opposes unwarranted aggression. Opposition is contained in the concept.

This isn't a case where Russia can go "Oops, my bad" and just pretend this never happened.
So you're saying that they don't enjoy the same privileges as the United States. OK

His favoured course of action involves a group of virulent anti-communists and ultra-capitalists (who are inhabiting the old state machinery of the USSR) conquering smaller democratic nations.
Stop making up something to argue against.
 

Dalisclock

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So you're saying that they don't enjoy the same privileges as the United States. OK
Dude, if you want to rail against US foreign policy around the world, fucking make a thread about it and do it. Stop trying to use it to excuse Russia's bad behaviour and war crimes which has been your MO this entire fucking thread because no one is fucking buying it.

Otherwise there's literally no fucking point listening to you if all you're gonna do is "But the US....But NATO....." and dancing around Russia's fucking war crimes happening right now in the Ukraine.
 

Seanchaidh

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This is rich. So Russia bombing civilian targets, committing rape and murder, is all self-defense, but Finland doing exercises within its own borders is escalation.
This may be news to you, but escalating a conflict is something that two different entities can do at the same time. I think that my government should stop. I won't tell my government's adversaries how to respond to the belligerence of my government because that is a supremely pointless thing to do.

The sovereignty of the country's people to elect a government of their choice, and to exist separately from the whims of a larger Imperial power. That sovereignty, which Russia seeks explicitly to destroy.

Ya know, concern for self-determination usually isn't considered "incredible". Some might even say its a pretty essential part of socialism.
You don't care one whit about the self-determination of Crimea, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, or the Donbass; spare me this ridiculous bullshit, please.

And this "respect" for "Ukrainian sovereignty" is not a concern for Ukrainian self-determination in practice. It is a way to elevate the interests of the oligarchs who dominate Ukraine's politics.
 

Seanchaidh

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Dude, if you want to rail against US foreign policy around the world, fucking make a thread about it and do it. Stop trying to use it to excuse Russia's bad behaviour and war crimes which has been your MO this entire fucking thread because no one is fucking buying it.

Otherwise there's literally no fucking point listening to you if all you're gonna do is "But the US....But NATO....." and dancing around Russia's fucking war crimes happening right now in the Ukraine.
My government did its best to cause this conflict to happen and is continuing to do its best to make it continue. It likes this war. It is full of opportunity!

How Russia conducts the war is a separate question from whether and how the United States and NATO could have prevented it or could do the bare minimum to help it to end. My country considers itself above war crimes tribunals; there is a literal Federal law authorizing an invasion of the Netherlands should the Hague prosecute even one American official or soldier for war crimes. Impunity for war crimes has been normalized by the United States and its 'allies'. Julian Assange is in prison for publicizing war crimes by the United States. The perpetrators of those war crimes never faced justice. George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and a whole host of other politicians and officials of Western regimes are war criminals. And they have no fear whatsoever of facing justice. But they do have the audacity to accuse other countries of what they themselves are guilty at a much larger scale.

That is the context, like it or not. And your desire to ignore that context doesn't make you principled or whatever other self-congratulatory adjective you might pitifully want to use.
 

Dalisclock

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My government did its best to cause this conflict to happen and is continuing to do its best to make it continue. It likes this war. It is full of opportunity!

How Russia conducts the war is a separate question from whether and how the United States and NATO could have prevented it or could do the bare minimum to help it to end. My country considers itself above war crimes tribunals; there is a literal Federal law authorizing an invasion of the Netherlands should the Hague prosecute even one American official or soldier for war crimes. Impunity for war crimes has been normalized by the United States and its 'allies'. Julian Assange is in prison for publicizing war crimes by the United States. The perpetrators of those war crimes never faced justice. George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and a whole host of other politicians and officials of Western regimes are war criminals. And they have no fear whatsoever of facing justice. But they do have the audacity to accuse other countries of what they themselves are guilty at a much larger scale.

That is the context, like it or not. And your desire to ignore that context doesn't make you principled or whatever other self-congratulatory adjective you might pitifully want to use.
So we're just gonna keep dancing, aren't we?

Have fun with that. Daddy Putin would be proud.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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because I focus on what my own country can do to help/stop harming?
No, because you have excused or underplayed Russian sins in a vast multitude in a wide range of ways that border on delusion, whilst grotequely hyping those of Ukraine and the West. Your portrayal of Ukraine is an especially ugly form of victim blaming, in the context that Russia shares nearly all those faults to a greater degree.
 

Seanchaidh

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No, because you have excused or underplayed Russian sins in a vast multitude in a wide range of ways that border on delusion, whilst grotequely hyping those of Ukraine and the West. Your portrayal of Ukraine is an especially ugly form of victim blaming, in the context that Russia shares nearly all those faults to a greater degree.
Russian sins are mostly irrelevant.

The United States and NATO are intentionally using Ukraine to damage Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine. Calling the recognition of this "victim blaming" is just cynical whitewashing of western opportunism. The people of Ukraine voted for Zelensky because he claimed that he was going to pursue a course which among other things would have averted the war we see now. But, just like Poroshenko, Zelensky was cowed by the Nazis that hold influence in Ukraine (and whose coup the United States and European countries decided to validate) to renege on the Minsk agreement and pursue a policy of provocation rather than rapprochement.

It literally does not matter how bad you think Russia is; this is not OK.

The United States and United Kingdom have not given Zelensky the diplomatic tools to end the war that they very easily could; they care about damaging Russia. They'll send endless weapons, but empowering Zelensky to negotiate on their behalf? No. Or negotiating themselves an end to the war? Also no. They do not care about peace or Ukraine. They want a repeat of the Soviet Afghan war.

The US and UK are not victims. There is no "victim-blaming" claim to be made as a defense of their actions with respect to Ukraine. They are the world's predominant empire and its poodle and they (along with dozens of other nations) have successfully maneuvered Russia into feeling backed into a corner then acted shocked that Russia would act just like the numerous commentators and experts who thought expanding NATO was a bad idea precisely predicted that it would. The US and NATO pursued a course that they knew was likely to result in this. That makes them culpable for this outcome. And the fact that they are not letting Zelensky negotiate an end to sanctions on their behalf just shows that they do not give the slightest shit about Ukraine or its people. They just want to damage Russia.

And all you have to say about that is "victim blaming" and Putin propaganda/Russian disinfo like a useful idiot for US empire.
 

Satinavian

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Russian sins are mostly irrelevant.
How are Russian sins irrelevant in a thread about a Ukraine-Russian war ?
The United States and NATO are intentionally using Ukraine to damage Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine.
Before the invasion hardly anyone was actually interested in damaging Russia. The US wanted very much to focus on China, most of Europe wanted peaceful buissness relations. And everyone was witnessing how Russia had worse economic growth then everyone else around and was becoming weaker very much on its own. No need to squander ressources here.

Now that Russia has shown to be willing to compensate for its weakness by conquering neighbours to get their population and economic weight, weakening it seems suddenly far more urgent.

The United States and United Kingdom have not given Zelensky the diplomatic tools to end the war that they very easily could; they care about damaging Russia. They'll send endless weapons, but empowering Zelensky to negotiate on their behalf? No. Or negotiating themselves an end to the war? Also no. They do not care about peace or Ukraine. They want a repeat of the Soviet Afghan war.
The war is between Ukraine and Russia and it is on those to negotiate peace. The US and UK are not parties of the war. But Russia is not willing to forgoe territorial gain and the Ukraine is not willing to give territory to invaders. Everything else is irrelevant.
The US and UK are not victims. There is no "victim-blaming" claim to be made as a defense of their actions with respect to Ukraine
The victims are obviously the Ukrainians. Who are at war with Russia. While US and UK are not.

The US and NATO pursued a course that they knew was likely to result in this.
Nonsense. No one expected such recklessness , not even the Ukraainians.

If NATO knew, they would have prevented the war by admitting Ukraine in time.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Russian sins are mostly irrelevant.
Yes, and that selectivity of how you choose to recognise sins is deeply problematic. The fact that numerous strains of your argument are contradictory and straight out of a Kremlin propaganda ticklist merely accentuates that.

The final nail in the coffin is that, like many conspiracy theorists, you are regrettably wedded to the notion you have some sort of privileged insight into reality.