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Why is Ukrainians taking back Ukrainian territory after suffering an illegitimate invasion considered an escalation? Its just a step to reverting to the legitimate status quo from before 2014. The only one who's escalating is Russia.

In fact its kinda petty to begrudge Ukraine that they fight back against an enemy that wants to exterminate them.
Bullies often cry when they get punched in the face.

It says a lot about someone who goes "no fair" only at the point the bully is on the ground getting the shit kicked out of him but not when the bully rolled up and attacked in the first place.

Russia fucked around and now they're finding out.
 
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PsychedelicDiamond

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I see the Ukrainian Nazi fans are celebrating the latest escalation as if it means the end of the war instead of yet more dead.
Russia could just fucking retreat already. It'd be the best for Ukrainian people. It'd be best for the Russian people. But obviously the Kremlin wants more territory, even if not a single person in that territory remains alive.

He could withdraw his army today, and within a week the rest of the world would be kissing his ass again to get access to Russia's gas. The Russian government was genuinely successful using its ressources to make most of Europe borderline dependent on it, and it successfully exported its virtues via propaganda to the point every other halfwit west of Krakow considers them their potential ally against the... globohomo mafia, or whatever. Donald Trump probably being the most famous of those halfwits.
 
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Silvanus

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According to various sources, Ukraine has now retaken the entirety of Kharkiv Oblast, up to the border with Luhansk on the east. Russia has ordered withdrawal of remaining troops from the region, but has launched missile strikes on civilian utilities in Kharkiv in retaliation. Fascinating as always to see them retaliate against the civilian population their government claims they are there to protect.

Anyone who interprets Ukraine retaking its territory as a development that will increase the death toll is living in a brainworm fantasy. The only way the killing can end is with Russian withdrawal: we know this from the fact that when Russia controls territory, it massacres the population. Gunning down civilians in the streets, torture, summary execution on a mass scale. Leaving territory in the control of an extermination force is the opposite of an approach to minimise death and suffering.
 

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According to various sources, Ukraine has now retaken the entirety of Kharkiv Oblast, up to the border with Luhansk on the east. Russia has ordered withdrawal of remaining troops from the region, but has launched missile strikes on civilian utilities in Kharkiv in retaliation. Fascinating as always to see them retaliate against the civilian population their government claims they are there to protect.

Anyone who interprets Ukraine retaking its territory as a development that will increase the death toll is living in a brainworm fantasy. The only way the killing can end is with Russian withdrawal: we know this from the fact that when Russia controls territory, it massacres the population. Gunning down civilians in the streets, torture, summary execution on a mass scale. Leaving territory in the control of an extermination force is the opposite of an approach to minimise death and suffering.

You know, I criticized some of the ace combat games where you would have the to shoot down enemy bombers and missiles aimed at a city just after you'd helped liberate said city for being cartoonishly evil on the enemies part. It turns out such extreme pettiness and complete disregard for human life is Russias MO and I just made the mistake of assuming people wouldn't immediately resort to war crimes rather then take the L.

The Ukrainians have no incentive not to fight as hard as they can. Russia will mass murderer them regardless.
 
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meiam

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You know, I criticized some of the ace combat games where you would have the to shoot down enemy bombers and missiles aimed at a city just after you'd helped liberate said city for being cartoonishly evil on the enemies part. It turns out such extreme pettiness and complete disregard for human life is Russias MO and I just made the mistake of assuming people wouldn't immediately resort to war crimes rather then take the L.

The Ukrainians have no incentive not to fight as hard as they can. Russia will mass murderer them regardless.
Sound like they're just trying to erase evidence.


Worse is that those are the russian leaning region of Ukraine, many of them are descendant from Russian who were more or less forcefully resettled there. Those were the town where the population would have been the most receptive to them. What was the optimistic scenario for Putin? Take over all of Ukraine, massacre a large segment of the population and now have a conquered territory that viciously hate you?
 

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Sound like they're just trying to erase evidence.


Worse is that those are the russian leaning region of Ukraine, many of them are descendant from Russian who were more or less forcefully resettled there. Those were the town where the population would have been the most receptive to them. What was the optimistic scenario for Putin? Take over all of Ukraine, massacre a large segment of the population and now have a conquered territory that viciously hate you?
I have to wonder. Maybe there was some delusion they would be greeted as liberators in the Kremlin due to people getting REALLY REALLY high on their own supply but honestly I'm sure they knew they were gonna ethnically cleanse to some extent. The irony is that they tried the same shit in afghanistan and look how well that turned out. 10 years that arguably exhausted the USSR.

Ukraine feels like something similar but going at 10x speed because the Ukrainians were able to halt a complete takeover from the start, so instead of a victory followed by a decade of partisan activity being a pain in the ass to the Russian army, we have a well armed, well disciplined and VERY motivated army opposing them and partisan activity in the occupied oblasts to boot.
 
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CM156

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I have to wonder. Maybe there was some delusion they would be greeted as liberators in the Kremlin due to people getting REALLY REALLY high on their own supply but honestly I'm sure they knew they were gonna ethnically cleanse to some extent. The irony is that they tried the same shit in afghanistan and look how well that turned out. 10 years that arguably exhausted the USSR.

Ukraine feels like something similar but going at 10x speed because the Ukrainians were able to halt a complete takeover from the start, so instead of a victory followed by a decade of partisan activity being a pain in the ass to the Russian army, we have a well armed, well disciplined and VERY motivated army opposing them and partisan activity in the occupied oblasts to boot.
Every so often, you'll have people argue in favor of dictatorships, explicitly or implicitly, because liberal democracy slows things down and prevents action when it is needed. That may very well be the case. But such people also tend to forget that such systems often times purge dissenting voices both within and outside the government. And then you end up with situations like this where Russia has, it seems, gotten high of its own supply.
Russia has walked itself into a situation that there is no real easy way out of. Even if Putin and his cronies were deposed and the army of Russia left all of Ukraine, including Crimea, there's still massive problems that stem from this war that they'll be dealing with.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Every so often, you'll have people argue in favor of dictatorships, explicitly or implicitly, because liberal democracy slows things down and prevents action when it is needed. That may very well be the case. But such people also tend to forget that such systems often times purge dissenting voices both within and outside the government. And then you end up with situations like this where Russia has, it seems, gotten high of its own supply.
Russia has walked itself into a situation that there is no real easy way out of. Even if Putin and his cronies were deposed and the army of Russia left all of Ukraine, including Crimea, there's still massive problems that stem from this war that they'll be dealing with.
I mean, it worked for a few centuries in Rome, with the dictator voluntarily stepping down as soon as a crisis passed, so obviously it can work again.

Nevermind that some asshole eventually figured out you could just...not give it back. I hope he got stabbed
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Well this is happen and it horrible.

Edit: This connects to Ukraine because russia is supposed to come to armenia aid if this happen but you know considering what's going on that seems unlikely
 
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Dalisclock

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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Wait, WTF is happening?
Azerbaijan is taking advantage of russia's weakness. European nations made an oil deal Azerbaijan which is put them in a tight position. I've heard Iran could help them but their military is made for defense and China does not do defense operations like this. and if the United States tries to stop it they could cut off the oil deal with Europe.

and this has been a daily reminder,

FUCK OIL!
 

Hawki

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You know, I criticized some of the ace combat games where you would have the to shoot down enemy bombers and missiles aimed at a city just after you'd helped liberate said city for being cartoonishly evil on the enemies part. It turns out such extreme pettiness and complete disregard for human life is Russias MO and I just made the mistake of assuming people wouldn't immediately resort to war crimes rather then take the L.

The Ukrainians have no incentive not to fight as hard as they can. Russia will mass murderer them regardless.
Well, what do you expect? Most of the time, the enemies in Ace Combat are not!Russians anyway (Belka, Estovakia), or in the case of Assault Horizon, Russia proper (rebel Russians, but rebels that run the country for a full third of the game).
 
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Bedinsis

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Wait, WTF is happening?
Armenia truly is between a rock and a hard place.

Nagorno-Karabakh means that they're in conflict with neighbouring Azerbaijan; Turkey's continued denial of the Armenian genocide means they are in conflict with Turkey. And Turkey's membership in NATO means they cannot join that military alliance. Hence they've turned to the only other available option: Russia. Azerbaijan also has a lot of military exercises with NATO.

According to Freedom House, Armenia is partially free, unlike ALL the aforementioned countries (Azerbaijan, Russia and Turkey) which are not free.

The point I'm getting at is that I wish Turkey wasn't part of NATO; that would make it easier to put pressure on them to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. If Russia collapses I wonder what Armenia will do.
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Armenia truly is between a rock and a hard place.

Nagorno-Karabach means that they're in conflict with neighbouring Azerbaijan; Turkey's continued denial of the Armenian genocide means they are in conflict with Turkey. And Turkey's membership in NATO means they cannot join that military alliance. Hence they've turned to the only other available option: Russia. Azerbaijan also has a lot of military exercises with NATO.

According to Freedom House, Armenia is partially free, unlike ALL the aforementioned countries (Azerbaijan, Russia and Turkey) which are not free.

The point I'm getting at is that I wish Turkey wasn't part of NATO; that would make it easier to put pressure on them to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. If Russia collapses I wonder what Armenia will do.
If there's going to be any winner of the Ukrainian War it's going to be Turkey (and Poland but that's off topic)

Russia will be weakened after this, they further their presents in the Middle East and have more bargaining chips in Europe especially with Ukraine joining NATO eventually which will be extremely thankful for turkey's help in the war ( like supplying them with drones)
 
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Seanchaidh

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"Escalation" seems to have taken on a rather bizarre meaning, synonymous with defending one's own sovereign territory.
Were you not aware that the breakthrough in Kharkiv prompted Russia to start targeting Ukraine's power grid? Did you think the Russian military had not been limiting itself?
 

Silvanus

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Were you not aware that the breakthrough in Kharkiv prompted Russia to start targeting Ukraine's power grid? Did you think the Russian military had not been limiting itself?
Not quite sure what point is being made here. Russia's choice to launch revenge attacks on civilian infrastructure... makes Ukrainian self-defence an act of escalation? Does anything become an act of "escalation" if the opponent chooses to react to it in a wildly brutal and unreasonable way?

---

As in Bucha, with the withdrawal of the occupying force, survivors are able to provide testimony of life under the occupiers.


Yet again survivor testimony is of the widespread torture and execution of civilians.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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Not quite sure what point is being made here.
The "point" is that Ukraine is prolonging the war by not letting Putin subjugate them.

Yet again survivor testimony is of the widespread torture and execution of civilians.
But Seanchaidh says that they're all Nazis, so it's okay to torture and execute them!
 
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