No, of course not. You completely missed my point, actually.merf1350 said:Do you think that there are many women out there, who were victims of rape, that would not argue that the lingering shame and vulnerability that many feel makes rape a form of torture?
That's just it though--they probably shouldn't be able to work, because that might put them in a position again where they might be alone with a vulnerable woman. Leaving aside all the 'they're just kids!' bullshit, if they raped once there is a greater than zero chance they will rape again, and that's simply not acceptable.ZephrC said:Holy crap people are weird about sex. Obviously what those boys did was wrong, and maybe their punishment was too lenient. It certainly happens.
Still, this sort of bullshit vigilantism is completely counter-productive in the end. You'd think that people would have realized that rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Well plastering shit all over the news about how unimaginably horrible every bit of inappropriate touching is sure as hell isn't making it any less powerful, is it?
Seriously. I'm not kidding here. That just makes it more appealing to the sorts of people who are willing to do that sort of thing. Sure the ones with half a brain cell don't want their names attached to it, since they'd probably like to get a job at some point, but let's be serious; no criminal ever thinks they're going to be the one to get caught.
I mean, I get that it's absolutely horrible the way rape victims are often shut up. It's disgusting. Still, if it ever becomes public that a person was involved in a crime that's even vaguely related to sex they will never have a decent job again in our society. And maybe if it's a 40 year old rapist that's okay, but a couple high school kids? That's fucked up.
I know this isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but I really believe we need to take away rape's power by making it less of a big deal. We need to understand that it's not okay, yes, but to demonize it more than torture and murder is only giving it more power. It needs to be something that we can talk about without fear of ruining the lives of everyone involved. Not just for the sake of stupid kids, but for the sake of the victims as well. I seriously believe that the way we treat rape victims damages them more than the rape does, and that goes more for the people trying to help than it does for the assholes trying to cover it up or blame the victim.
I realize that kind of goes counter to the original point, but violating court orders isn't the way to enact meaningful change, especially when it's clearly only to the detriment of the other side. I don't blame her for wanting to talk, and certainly don't think she deserves jail time for it, but I think the way she went about things will do more harm than good. We need, as a society, to stop being so goddamned freaked out by sex. It's weird and unhealthy.
Oh, don't be ridiculous. Everyone, man woman or child, has a greater than zero chance of committing rape. There is a far, far higher chance of a person being raped by a family member than by a convicted rapist.Sindaine said:That's just it though--they probably shouldn't be able to work, because that might put them in a position again where they might be alone with a vulnerable woman. Leaving aside all the 'they're just kids!' bullshit, if they raped once there is a greater than zero chance they will rape again, and that's simply not acceptable.ZephrC said:Holy crap people are weird about sex. Obviously what those boys did was wrong, and maybe their punishment was too lenient. It certainly happens.
Still, this sort of bullshit vigilantism is completely counter-productive in the end. You'd think that people would have realized that rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Well plastering shit all over the news about how unimaginably horrible every bit of inappropriate touching is sure as hell isn't making it any less powerful, is it?
Seriously. I'm not kidding here. That just makes it more appealing to the sorts of people who are willing to do that sort of thing. Sure the ones with half a brain cell don't want their names attached to it, since they'd probably like to get a job at some point, but let's be serious; no criminal ever thinks they're going to be the one to get caught.
I mean, I get that it's absolutely horrible the way rape victims are often shut up. It's disgusting. Still, if it ever becomes public that a person was involved in a crime that's even vaguely related to sex they will never have a decent job again in our society. And maybe if it's a 40 year old rapist that's okay, but a couple high school kids? That's fucked up.
I know this isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but I really believe we need to take away rape's power by making it less of a big deal. We need to understand that it's not okay, yes, but to demonize it more than torture and murder is only giving it more power. It needs to be something that we can talk about without fear of ruining the lives of everyone involved. Not just for the sake of stupid kids, but for the sake of the victims as well. I seriously believe that the way we treat rape victims damages them more than the rape does, and that goes more for the people trying to help than it does for the assholes trying to cover it up or blame the victim.
I realize that kind of goes counter to the original point, but violating court orders isn't the way to enact meaningful change, especially when it's clearly only to the detriment of the other side. I don't blame her for wanting to talk, and certainly don't think she deserves jail time for it, but I think the way she went about things will do more harm than good. We need, as a society, to stop being so goddamned freaked out by sex. It's weird and unhealthy.
Recidivism, look it up. You do that shit once, you are going to do it again. So let's keep them away from women. Put them on disability or whatever if we must but keep them away from people they might hurt. And funny you should mention having their lives ruined, because there's a young lady named Samantha whose life they in fact ruined, and yet it's their scumbag lives that people are up in arms about. This is where we are as a nation. Two men rape an unconscious woman, and the country weeps for the rapist rather than the victim. How disgusting is that?ZephrC said:Oh, don't be ridiculous. Everyone, man woman or child, has a greater than zero chance of committing rape. There is a far, far higher chance of a person being raped by a family member than by a convicted rapist.Sindaine said:That's just it though--they probably shouldn't be able to work, because that might put them in a position again where they might be alone with a vulnerable woman. Leaving aside all the 'they're just kids!' bullshit, if they raped once there is a greater than zero chance they will rape again, and that's simply not acceptable.ZephrC said:Holy crap people are weird about sex. Obviously what those boys did was wrong, and maybe their punishment was too lenient. It certainly happens.
Still, this sort of bullshit vigilantism is completely counter-productive in the end. You'd think that people would have realized that rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Well plastering shit all over the news about how unimaginably horrible every bit of inappropriate touching is sure as hell isn't making it any less powerful, is it?
Seriously. I'm not kidding here. That just makes it more appealing to the sorts of people who are willing to do that sort of thing. Sure the ones with half a brain cell don't want their names attached to it, since they'd probably like to get a job at some point, but let's be serious; no criminal ever thinks they're going to be the one to get caught.
I mean, I get that it's absolutely horrible the way rape victims are often shut up. It's disgusting. Still, if it ever becomes public that a person was involved in a crime that's even vaguely related to sex they will never have a decent job again in our society. And maybe if it's a 40 year old rapist that's okay, but a couple high school kids? That's fucked up.
I know this isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but I really believe we need to take away rape's power by making it less of a big deal. We need to understand that it's not okay, yes, but to demonize it more than torture and murder is only giving it more power. It needs to be something that we can talk about without fear of ruining the lives of everyone involved. Not just for the sake of stupid kids, but for the sake of the victims as well. I seriously believe that the way we treat rape victims damages them more than the rape does, and that goes more for the people trying to help than it does for the assholes trying to cover it up or blame the victim.
I realize that kind of goes counter to the original point, but violating court orders isn't the way to enact meaningful change, especially when it's clearly only to the detriment of the other side. I don't blame her for wanting to talk, and certainly don't think she deserves jail time for it, but I think the way she went about things will do more harm than good. We need, as a society, to stop being so goddamned freaked out by sex. It's weird and unhealthy.
Also, the whole 'your life is ruined forever' thing doesn't give them a lot of incentive to stop, now does it?
Can they do that? I mean I thought it would be double jepardy if he gets tried and charged again for the same crime. Plus that seems a bit hefty, he served his time, why make him do it twice?Raven said:Funny you mention that example. I was undergoing some military training when some bloke in another barracks put his dick in some guys mouth and took a picture while the guy was asleep. When he woke up and was told what happened he quite rightly flipped out and went straight to the Sargent Major in charge of the facility.Jiggy said:Ok Kids, I think we need some clarfication here.
Rape =/= Rape
The thing is, when we are talking about rape, we tend to be thinking of someone being Forcefucked...now, that would legally be rape...but it doesn't have to be that to legally be rape. Penetrating a vagina with the tip of your pinky would also be rape in the legal sense.
So, what exactly is telling you that these kids didn't put their dicks in her mouth and take a picture? A bad thing to do, obviously, but also something that would widely be considered a prank oh, and that would also legally be considered rape. This actually seems more likely considering how they also took pictures and showed them around. Not exactly a smart thing to do when you are doing what would be considered rape in common language, don't ya think?
Now, I'm not saying that is what happened. But given the situation, given that they made proof of what they did themselves, given that they themselves spread the information, I doubt that what they did was the super-heinous act that so many of you are perceiving it to have been.
The victim was 17 years old, the perpetrator 19 (or something). He gets immediately arrested by the military police, court martialled and charged with sexual assault on a minor and given a hefty prison sentence. When he's done serving that, he'll come out and face civillian charges for the same incident, usually followed by more jailtime...
Pretty much fucked that kid up for life... He wasn't the sharpest bloke either.
your point. I agree and you reminded me of something from a long time ago, to anybody familiar with Harry potter. Bogarts take the shape of your. worst. fear. that's pretty scary right? but how do you beat them? you make them look ridiculous, you take the power away from them. any way just thought it was a nice analogyZephrC said:No, of course not. You completely missed my point, actually.merf1350 said:Do you think that there are many women out there, who were victims of rape, that would not argue that the lingering shame and vulnerability that many feel makes rape a form of torture?
It's more torture what they go through afterwards because rape is considered such a big deal than the physical act itself. By making it out to be something that ruins a persons a person's psyche we're making it something so terrible that victims want to hide that it happened to them. And victims that would normally be able to recover quickly can't because they feel like there's something wrong with them if they do.
Sexual assault is assault, plain and simple, and by making it out to be more than that just because it has the word sexual stuck at the front we as a society are taking power away from the victim and giving it to the criminal.
And worse, by making the punishment so disproportionate to the crime, we're forcing judges into positions were they have to force victims to not talk about what happened so that anything vaguely resembling justice can be done. Do have any idea how horrible that is? It's sick, but it's not the judge's fault. It's the fault of people like you that can't tell the difference between justice and revenge.
The idea that the best way to deter a crime is to make it's punishment worse is just flat out wrong. People all over the world try it all the time, because it appeals to our desire for revenge, but it really doesn't work. It never has, and it never will.
The goal with any crime should first be to prevent it from happening in the first place, second help the victim recover, and third to turn the criminal into a productive, non-criminal member of society. And if you objectively look at what does and doesn't work, that third one actually helps with the first, so sometimes it should take priority over the second for that reason alone.
Apparently so, according to the UK system anyway. The court martial is basically a "you broke our rules" thing and when that's finished the civil courts can put them on trial for breaking societal laws. I'm pretty sure they'll take into account any time served in a military prison however.elvor0 said:Can they do that? I mean I thought it would be double jepardy if he gets tried and charged again for the same crime. Plus that seems a bit hefty, he served his time, why make him do it twice?Raven said:Funny you mention that example. I was undergoing some military training when some bloke in another barracks put his dick in some guys mouth and took a picture while the guy was asleep. When he woke up and was told what happened he quite rightly flipped out and went straight to the Sargent Major in charge of the facility.
The victim was 17 years old, the perpetrator 19 (or something). He gets immediately arrested by the military police, court martialled and charged with sexual assault on a minor and given a hefty prison sentence. When he's done serving that, he'll come out and face civillian charges for the same incident, usually followed by more jailtime...
Pretty much fucked that kid up for life... He wasn't the sharpest bloke either.
If that is actually what happened its a shame she didn't bite them off.Jiggy said:So, what exactly is telling you that these kids didn't put their dicks in her mouth and take a picture?