Undertale, An Analysis. [Spoilers]

Bealzibob

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I haven't frequented the escapist forums in a little while and I'm sure you could create an accurate atomic clock if you timed how many undertale threads you guys have had to deal with lately but here is mine.

After watching Yahtzee's top 5 list and reading all the bitching (from both sides) in the comments I thought I might give a long winded deconstruction on why I dislike the game and not just point out the rabid player-base.

This is going to be more of a article than a tradition review, which i'll put at the end as a TD:LR if you want a more practical breakdown.

WARNING I WILL BE TALKING FREELY WITH NO ATTENTION TO SPOILERS

[HEADING=2] Part 1: Expectation and Execution. [/HEADING]

My brother got me this game cause he was to lazy to play it and see if it was any good. I'd only just found it in the steam top selling new games listing and thought, this ************ looks like a Cave Story inspire rogue-like, which sounded awesome to me. I then saw a ton of people talking about how you should go in blind and that it's awesome, so shut up, play now, no really, now.

I did so and it was fantastic. The start that is, the rest fell off at break-neck speed (Barring the soundtrack).

When you are introduce to the game it is instantly memorable in that traditional indie (J)RPG way. It looks like Earthbound and Cave Story had a baby. This is great, Cave Story is in my top 5. The set-up is that perfect balance between basic (monsters, humans, feud) and complex (which comes in the form of implied lore that is set up to be unraveled). This is a very successful way to kickstart a world like Undertales and it's really solidified with Flowey. Who after playing the whole game through seems like he is in the wrong game.

Flowey begins the game seemingly as a overly saccharine tutorial character and very successfully teaches you that every character is not as they seem. This is then wonderfully followed up by Toriel who appears to be another wonderfully saccharine tutorial character. You then spend, or at least I did, a fair bit of you interactions with her wondering whether she was the bigger fish taking from Flowey or if she was genuine. This is helped along by some wonderful world building with the spiders and the house etc.

The big punch in the gut here is that she is genuine and you end up fighting her and as a new player likely killing her. This is what I would consider Act 1 of Undertale and the best part of the game.

[HEADING=2]Part 2: Sticking the landing [/HEADING]

This is where the game starts to fall off, slowly at first as your understanding of the world is still fairly small, but is falls off pretty hard. Sans and Papyrus are at the core of this I think and at the end of the day if I wanted to give a two sentence review I would probably just ask "Do you like Sans and Papyrus? Then yeah it's great". They represent the conflicting themes that the game tried and failed to balance. When first introduce they are introduced as guards of the monster border. Then we slowly learn more and more, Sans is lazy and becomes quite buddy, buddy with you and Papyrus is comically incompetent and perhaps a genuinely autistic character, which could be interesting.

They are amusing at first, an oddity that would of been a side characters in another, better game but instead they become central to the entire story line. The story is quite good, as a basis. It's pleasantly dark, has a great replayability gimmick which actually builds on the whole story as opposed to just the current version of it and some of the main players are quite balanced, interesting characters (Toriel, Asgore, Flowey, Monster Kid, Undyne and Chara (more an interesting twist than character but...)).

The most notable characters missing from that list you might have noticed are Sans, Papyrus, Metatron and Alphys. The define thing that ties these characters together is that they all realize they are in a game, or maybe they all forget they are monsters, either way their traits and dialogue stick out amongst the rest of the world building like a bad fanfic OC. Which is what they are but within their own game.

The mistake in the execution of these characters can be seen with a joke that is made within the game twice itself. In Toriel's house the player can click on a Cactus and get the flavour text "A Cactus, truly the most tsundere of all plants", or something to that effect. Later on in the game you fight a common monster mob called the "Tsunderplane" which is simply an airplane with a hat and manga style blush. This mob is a part of world building, it has interactions with other monsters (a lot of which are equally weird memetic themes) and it interacts with the combat system and storyline elements.

Now the flavour text is not unique to the genre. Cave Story for example has "Curly's Panties" which you can collect somehow. As an item this it is pointless and is mostly a joke between player and creator. Same with the initial cactus joke. However is Curly's Panties were required to progress the game this would be a large break in tone and theme for the game. "A large break in tone and theme" is basically what I would call Act 2 of Undertale.

(The scenes with Monster Kid and Undyne being the only real return to form)

[HEADING=2]Part 3: Combat meets Storytelling[/HEADING]

The second biggest gripe I have with Undertale is that it's combat system is so bizarrely in the way of it's storytelling. The pacifist run is where the real issue is here and it appears within the boss fights. While random monster encounters do actually have a really satisfying pace and reward, though it is only really enjoyable for one encounter before losing it's sheen, the boss fights drag on and the player is expected to endure as many rounds as the developer felt they needed to unload the exposition for that fight, before typically ending it superfluously.

The way that the combat system is temporarily turned off, including the puzzle style befriending element, for boss fights until it lets you finish them is jarring and dishonest towards the player who has built up a level of understanding with the game on what they are expected to react. It's important to engage the player so that they still feel agency even if they are simply getting wailed on freely by the boss. At the end of the day the games intentions towards pacifism itself is barely functional as the monsters typically engage or hunt you, they unapologetically try to kill you and then you just have to bare with them while you fix their problems.

This tone works well when the monsters are polpys and depressive ghosts who are characterized visually and physically as ineffectual so the pacifism comes across as genuine. Dodge spears, while almost dying multiple times, till the boss decides they might listen to you now is not engaging on a moral level.

[HEADING=2] Conclusion [/HEADING]

So yeah that is the break down on what I feel are the major weaknesses on undertale. A lot of which were summarized in sassy fashion in the Honest Game Trailer for Undertale that I just watched 5 minutes ago so I don't know why i bothered finishing this but I was already almost done so fuck it. I hope I at least come across convincingly instead of ranting.

[HEADING=3]TD:LR [/HEADING]
-The music, side-characters who aren't main-characters, the environment and the combat mechanics are all varying ranges of alright to actually really good.
-The story starts off strong before throwing it's tone out the window to devolve into fanfic level meta-humour
-Combat and story never really meet in the middle and the game has to stop one or the other which becomes jarring and inconsistent
-Sans, Papyrus, Aplhys and Metatron give me the shits so bad

Overall: Would not recommend unless I new the person's taste very well. Major disappointment.
 

Jerast

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Surely everyone has either played undertale to form their own opinion or refused to play it out of spite of all the reviews both positive and negative by now.

Why even bother posting a review here?
 

Bealzibob

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It's not really a review, more an analysis. Did you want me to change the title to make that clearer?
 

Saetha

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Hmm. I get what you're saying, although I think you may have gone in looking for the wrong thing - Undertale's sort of about it's fanfic meta humor. I've actually spoken to a lot of people who weren't so into the tutorial because it was creepier and more mysterious, lacking the zany humor the rest of the game has.

That being said, I do agree to an extent. I feel like Sans and Papyrus were actually really neat, and the fanfic meta humor worked for them. Alphys and Mettaton, though? That's when it started to grate on me a little, especially in relation to Alphys. Yes, we get it. She's an anime nerd. We understand. Next joke please.
Jerast said:
Surely everyone has either played undertale to form their own opinion or refused to play it out of spite of all the reviews both positive and negative by now.

Why even bother posting a review here?
Because there's an awful of people talking at the other side rather than talking to them. You'll see people who don't like the game accuse the fans of just chasing the newest indie bait, or being insufferable in their obsession. And you'll see the fans accusing those who take fault with them or the game saying the fans everyone complains about don't actually exist, and the people who hate it only hate it because it's popular. In short, your typical wild accusations with little basis in reality, showing little-to-no respect for other people or their ability to have valid but differing opinions.

Proof that, yes, some people genuinely dislike the game for itself - well, it'll hopefully get one side to shut up and show some respect, at least.
 

Bealzibob

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Saetha said:
Hmm. I get what you're saying, although I think you may have gone in looking for the wrong thing - Undertale's sort of about it's fanfic meta humor. I've actually spoken to a lot of people who weren't so into the tutorial because it was creepier and more mysterious, lacking the zany humor the rest of the game has.

That being said, I do agree to an extent. I feel like Sans and Papyrus were actually really neat, and the fanfic meta humor worked for them. Alphys and Mettaton, though? That's when it started to grate on me a little, especially in relation to Alphys. Yes, we get it. She's an anime nerd. We understand. Next joke please.
Thanks for actually responding to my post :p

I understand your point both in the fact that people play undertale for the meta humour which it does pretty damn well so they should) and can understand why you and other people like Sans/Papyrus but I still can reconcile the weird balance of it all. The underlining story, with the king and Chara, etc, does retain the creepiness of the introduction so both act 1 and act 3 have it but not act 2.

Sans and Papyrus were great until you realized they weren't going away in my opinion.
 

sXeth

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I'd have to agree that the middlish third of the game feels sort of like a joke dragged through until its become a chore. Papyrus and Mettaton don't really have enough notes to carry on for as long as they do, and both use the same general gimmick of "Here's a puzzle you can't fail unless you're deliberately trying to" right up until their end battles. Mettaton in particular seemed to really take forever to get done, being haphazardly strewn across 2-3 areas.

If you do the pacifist run, Alphys does get some decent development in the new dungeon thread.

Which brings me to my main gripe with the game. Unless the wiki lies to me, you can't even get the real pacifist run until a second playthrough, even if you don't kill anyone the first time around before figuring it out. So already the games locked a whole 2 chapters of content (The secret area and the real ending) behind a second playthrough, and while you get tiny text changes, the playthrough isn't especially different, and felt like a slog just to see an actual ending.

Genocide just seems like something you'd need a wiki to even consider doing and figure out how to get. Even if you just murderize everything you meet, its too easy to skip a monster in one area and miss it.

And yeah, the bullet time combat gets repetitive fast, especially with the bosses that have no actual dialogue path beyond sitting through it.

Overall I enjoyed it, but definitely there's flaws that jump out, and I can't see potentially replaying it ever.
 

Corven

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Seth Carter said:
Which brings me to my main gripe with the game. Unless the wiki lies to me, you can't even get the real pacifist run until a second playthrough, even if you don't kill anyone the first time around before figuring it out. So already the games locked a whole 2 chapters of content (The secret area and the real ending) behind a second playthrough, and while you get tiny text changes, the playthrough isn't especially different, and felt like a slog just to see an actual ending.
If you play the game pacifist the first time through you don't have to play the whole game over, you would only have to do that if you killed something then tried to be pacifist. If you play it pacifist all the way through on the first go all you are told to do is reload your save and go speak with Alphys.
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

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I pretty much agree with the OP.

The game uses meta humour in place of a story for a majority of the game, and that wears thin pretty quickly. As does the gameplay mechanics which lost their appeal about a third of the way in.

The story is a pretty standard meta-anime affair. The True Pacifist ending is AWFUL. You can't lose the boss fight and it turns out Friendship is the true power, it's just so trite. Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.

And after that the game makes you try and feel bad if you try to replay it. It ACTIVLY tries to discourage replays. I have never known a game that calls you an asshole if you want to experience the whole game.

After Flowey asked me to leave everyone to be happy I said "okay" and then Delete Local Content. You can all be happy in non-existance. How's that for meta you guilt tripping fuck?
 

jhoroz

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Bealzibob said:
I haven't frequented the escapist forums in a little while and I'm sure you could create an accurate atomic clock if you timed how many undertale threads you guys have had to deal with lately but here is mine.

After watching Yahtzee's top 5 list and reading all the bitching (from both sides) in the comments I thought I might give a long winded deconstruction on why I dislike the game and not just point out the rabid player-base.

This is going to be more of a article than a tradition review, which i'll put at the end as a TD:LR if you want a more practical breakdown.

WARNING I WILL BE TALKING FREELY WITH NO ATTENTION TO SPOILERS

[HEADING=2] Part 1: Expectation and Execution. [/HEADING]

My brother got me this game cause he was to lazy to play it and see if it was any good. I'd only just found it in the steam top selling new games listing and thought, this ************ looks like a Cave Story inspire rogue-like, which sounded awesome to me. I then saw a ton of people talking about how you should go in blind and that it's awesome, so shut up, play now, no really, now.

I did so and it was fantastic. The start that is, the rest fell off at break-neck speed (Barring the soundtrack).

When you are introduce to the game it is instantly memorable in that traditional indie (J)RPG way. It looks like Earthbound and Cave Story had a baby. This is great, Cave Story is in my top 5. The set-up is that perfect balance between basic (monsters, humans, feud) and complex (which comes in the form of implied lore that is set up to be unraveled). This is a very successful way to kickstart a world like Undertales and it's really solidified with Flowey. Who after playing the whole game through seems like he is in the wrong game.

Flowey begins the game seemingly as a overly saccharine tutorial character and very successfully teaches you that every character is not as they seem. This is then wonderfully followed up by Toriel who appears to be another wonderfully saccharine tutorial character. You then spend, or at least I did, a fair bit of you interactions with her wondering whether she was the bigger fish taking from Flowey or if she was genuine. This is helped along by some wonderful world building with the spiders and the house etc.

The big punch in the gut here is that she is genuine and you end up fighting her and as a new player likely killing her. This is what I would consider Act 1 of Undertale and the best part of the game.

[HEADING=2]Part 2: Sticking the landing [/HEADING]

This is where the game starts to fall off, slowly at first as your understanding of the world is still fairly small, but is falls off pretty hard. Sans and Papyrus are at the core of this I think and at the end of the day if I wanted to give a two sentence review I would probably just ask "Do you like Sans and Papyrus? Then yeah it's great". They represent the conflicting themes that the game tried and failed to balance. When first introduce they are introduced as guards of the monster border. Then we slowly learn more and more, Sans is lazy and becomes quite buddy, buddy with you and Papyrus is comically incompetent and perhaps a genuinely autistic character, which could be interesting.

They are amusing at first, an oddity that would of been a side characters in another, better game but instead they become central to the entire story line. The story is quite good, as a basis. It's pleasantly dark, has a great replayability gimmick which actually builds on the whole story as opposed to just the current version of it and some of the main players are quite balanced, interesting characters (Toriel, Asgore, Flowey, Monster Kid, Undyne and Chara (more an interesting twist than character but...)).

The most notable characters missing from that list you might have noticed are Sans, Papyrus, Metatron and Alphys. The define thing that ties these characters together is that they all realize they are in a game, or maybe they all forget they are monsters, either way their traits and dialogue stick out amongst the rest of the world building like a bad fanfic OC. Which is what they are but within their own game.

The mistake in the execution of these characters can be seen with a joke that is made within the game twice itself. In Toriel's house the player can click on a Cactus and get the flavour text "A Cactus, truly the most tsundere of all plants", or something to that effect. Later on in the game you fight a common monster mob called the "Tsunderplane" which is simply an airplane with a hat and manga style blush. This mob is a part of world building, it has interactions with other monsters (a lot of which are equally weird memetic themes) and it interacts with the combat system and storyline elements.

Now the flavour text is not unique to the genre. Cave Story for example has "Curly's Panties" which you can collect somehow. As an item this it is pointless and is mostly a joke between player and creator. Same with the initial cactus joke. However is Curly's Panties were required to progress the game this would be a large break in tone and theme for the game. "A large break in tone and theme" is basically what I would call Act 2 of Undertale.

(The scenes with Monster Kid and Undyne being the only real return to form)

[HEADING=2]Part 3: Combat meets Storytelling[/HEADING]

The second biggest gripe I have with Undertale is that it's combat system is so bizarrely in the way of it's storytelling. The pacifist run is where the real issue is here and it appears within the boss fights. While random monster encounters do actually have a really satisfying pace and reward, though it is only really enjoyable for one encounter before losing it's sheen, the boss fights drag on and the player is expected to endure as many rounds as the developer felt they needed to unload the exposition for that fight, before typically ending it superfluously.

The way that the combat system is temporarily turned off, including the puzzle style befriending element, for boss fights until it lets you finish them is jarring and dishonest towards the player who has built up a level of understanding with the game on what they are expected to react. It's important to engage the player so that they still feel agency even if they are simply getting wailed on freely by the boss. At the end of the day the games intentions towards pacifism itself is barely functional as the monsters typically engage or hunt you, they unapologetically try to kill you and then you just have to bare with them while you fix their problems.

This tone works well when the monsters are polpys and depressive ghosts who are characterized visually and physically as ineffectual so the pacifism comes across as genuine. Dodge spears, while almost dying multiple times, till the boss decides they might listen to you now is not engaging on a moral level.

[HEADING=2] Conclusion [/HEADING]

So yeah that is the break down on what I feel are the major weaknesses on undertale. A lot of which were summarized in sassy fashion in the Honest Game Trailer for Undertale that I just watched 5 minutes ago so I don't know why i bothered finishing this but I was already almost done so fuck it. I hope I at least come across convincingly instead of ranting.

[HEADING=3]TD:LR [/HEADING]
-The music, side-characters who aren't main-characters, the environment and the combat mechanics are all varying ranges of alright to actually really good.
-The story starts off strong before throwing it's tone out the window to devolve into fanfic level meta-humour
-Combat and story never really meet in the middle and the game has to stop one or the other which becomes jarring and inconsistent
-Sans, Papyrus, Aplhys and Metatron give me the shits so bad

Overall: Would not recommend unless I new the person's taste very well. Major disappointment.
Hmm, Alphys and Mettaton definitely seem to be the most contentious part of the game, and while I do agree Alphys clingy, social network shtick gets a bit old I'm on the complete opposite boat with Mettaton. If anything, it's where the humour really took off with me, as well as the combat. Every single gimmick and the way its utilized with Mettaton's final battle is absolutely brilliant. The ratings system, combined with the space invader's gameplay and all the secret easter eggs and items you can use to help you in battle absolutely emphasized that characters weird quirks and personality, so I don't really agree that combat got in the way of storytelling here. My issues with your criticisms of the combat and the way bosses work, is that things like "pacifism" and "genocide" runs are not actual terms or even description of how you're supposed to play within the game-they're phrases dubbed by the fans. Undertale was originally dubbed as the game where nobody has to die, not where nobody has to be fought. Befriending, bullying and fighting monsters until they peacefully submit are all legitimate ways of mercying monsters and a majority of them I would not describe as peaceful.

Moving on to bosses-it's clear by the time you get to Undyne that each boss is an individual and they would require an individual solution in order to progress past them that doesn't always involve the mercy-spare mechanic. Toriel is hell bent on stopping you from leaving, but also feels guilty about hurting you, so you have to take advantage when your health is low and use that opportunity to mercy her repeatedly in order to emphasize that you don't want to fight. It's very clear from the fact that Undyne has been obsessively chasing you the entire way through Waterfall and her dialogue that clearly demonstrates she has an obsessive hatred of humans and desire to finally get the last soul to break open the barrier that talking her down is not an option and your only choice is to run until she calms down. I've already mentioned why I enjoyed the Mettaton, so I won't go much detail as why I enjoyed his fight. It's interesting you found the beginning section the most compelling when that was the bit that everyone complains about the most.

I also disagree about Sans and Papyrus. Papyrus is very much the heart of the story, since he will refuse to kill you no matter what you do, whereas Sans the equivalent of the Jimmity Cricket who will remind you of your actions one way or the other. They don't really have much to do with the main plot of the royal family since they're whole backstory is meant to be shrouded in mystery once you start digging deeper into the Gaster sub plot and the way they tie to him. The meta aspects don't clash with the actual in game story and world building-the fact that these are video game characters living in a video game is part of the lore. Everything from whole determination is actually a metaphysical ability that grants your protagonist to defeat his enemies, all the way to how resetting and loading your previous save affects the world. Also don't agree that the game skirts by purely meta humour throughout it's entirety. In fact the whole memetale description I find baffling since the jokes and humours are mostly presented on the surface and once you go deeper in the game theres much to each individual character than the caricature they present themselves to be.

Alphys-a chronically depressed scientist racked with guilt and suffering with some major issues of co-dependency tries to get the protagonist to like her by "helping" them get through puzzles and obstacles that she herself re-activated in order to impress them. Her lack of bravery in being able to confront her mistakes turns her into a chronological liar, until Undyne confronts her.

Mettaton-A ghost who's watched his relatives struggle in the day to day life of being stuck in the underground, with Napstablook struggling with self-esteem issues and Shyrene having her sibling disappear after taking a fatal fall, wants to entertain and bring happiness to the monsters'underground, so asks Doctor Alphyse to build him a robot body, but his narcissism and obsession with fame causes him to throw away the key to his past (which you find in the dumpsters of MTT resort by buying it from Catty and Bratty) and forget why he became who he was until Napstablook calls him during the boss fight you have with him.

There are many other examples of minor details and other encounters that add depth and complexity to each individual character, and that all tie the world and characters in a cohesive way, it's just not something you really get on your initial playthrough of the game.
 

Silence

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Saetha said:
Hmm. I get what you're saying, although I think you may have gone in looking for the wrong thing - Undertale's sort of about it's fanfic meta humor. I've actually spoken to a lot of people who weren't so into the tutorial because it was creepier and more mysterious, lacking the zany humor the rest of the game has.
This is not a rebuttal to your post, but an addendum:
Most reviewers and fans said go in blind - and then there are so many ways to wrongly play the game or looking for the wrong thing ... what's this with going in blind again? It's one of the main reasons why fanbase (+fan-reviewers) are pretty much at fault here - you need a basic understanding of what the game is before going in.
I hate how many reviewers said "go play it, it's good" without mentioning that it has very special, memetic, three times the 4th wall breaking humour - if it's even humour, and not just explaining of made-up words in the most 4th wall breaking way, or even just blaming you for playing the game wrong.

@OP:
I agree with your analysis. Apart from the tutorial. I hated the tutorial as well.
 

jhoroz

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.
Except they actually aren't? If you talk to one of the NPC in Snowdin after returning everyone's souls, they mention that Toriel fired Alphyse from her position as a royal scientist. Not to mention that she returned the Amalgamates to their relatives and confessed to what she had done.
 

jhoroz

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the silence said:
Saetha said:
Hmm. I get what you're saying, although I think you may have gone in looking for the wrong thing - Undertale's sort of about it's fanfic meta humor. I've actually spoken to a lot of people who weren't so into the tutorial because it was creepier and more mysterious, lacking the zany humor the rest of the game has.
This is not a rebuttal to your post, but an addendum:
Most reviewers and fans said go in blind - and then there are so many ways to wrongly play the game or looking for the wrong thing ... what's this with going in blind again? It's one of the main reasons why fanbase (+fan-reviewers) are pretty much at fault here - you need a basic understanding of what the game is before going in.
I hate how many reviewers said "go play it, it's good" without mentioning that it has very special, memetic, three times the 4th wall breaking humour - if it's even humour, and not just explaining of made-up words in the most 4th wall breaking way, or even just blaming you for playing the game wrong.
There is no "playing the game wrong way". You play the game how you normally play an RPG the first time. You defeat Flowey-he promises you a happier ending (if you spare him) if you go through the game again without killing anyone, and then it turns out he was manipulating you in order to absorb everyone's souls, which then leads to the "happy" ending. The game is explicitly clear about this and you don't really need any prior knowledge before going in to get to it. Genocide is probably the only route you would have to do some research in order to activate, and even I'm a bit miffed at the way you have to do it in order for it to occur.
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

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jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.
Except they actually aren't? If you talk to one of the NPC in Snowdin after returning everyone's souls, they mention that Toriel fired Alphyse from her position as a royal scientist. Not to mention that she returned the Amalgamates to their relatives and confessed to what she had done.
Wow, that sure makes up for it!
 

jhoroz

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.
Except they actually aren't? If you talk to one of the NPC in Snowdin after returning everyone's souls, they mention that Toriel fired Alphyse from her position as a royal scientist. Not to mention that she returned the Amalgamates to their relatives and confessed to what she had done.
Wow, that sure makes up for it!
Whether it makes up to it is up to you, but I think it's fine in the context of what had just had occurred in the story and Asgore definitely had no intention of punishing her, since it wouldn't have been really the time to do so since everybody was about to leave to the surface and a lot of the relatives of the Almagates gladly accepted them back into their lives, so there's nothing really "to make up for"
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

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jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.
Except they actually aren't? If you talk to one of the NPC in Snowdin after returning everyone's souls, they mention that Toriel fired Alphyse from her position as a royal scientist. Not to mention that she returned the Amalgamates to their relatives and confessed to what she had done.
Wow, that sure makes up for it!
Whether it makes up to it is up to you, but I think it's fine in the context of what had just had occurred in the story and Asgore definitely had no intention of punishing her, since it wouldn't have been really the time to do so since everybody was about to leave to the surface and a lot of the relatives of the Almagates gladly accepted them back into their lives, so there's nothing really "to make up for"
Oh, okay, cool. So state sanctioned medical experiments that result in death and physical and metal deformities are okay to go unpunished because the king said so and someone lost their job?

You can't really defend this. It's like the president saying "We're going to try melding the bodies and minds of your dead relatives together so we can go live in England. But it's cool cuz we'll give you them back once we're done."
 

Jerast

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WolvDragon said:
OT: Yeah I could see why may dislike it. Boss fights that drag on aren't good in my opinion. Doing a pacifist run maybe a bit difficult it seems.
It's like me posting a review to Pokemon Yellow or The Witcher 3.
 

wizzy555

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I don't really like undertale as a game to play, but it's great as a subject to analysis, in a David Lynch sort of "What was going through this guys head when he made this" sort of way. Tsundereplane....

I never really got attached to the characters, to me they seem to be sort of parodies of people you find on social media (which may have been the idea), But I can see why some people would be attached to them.

I started out doing a pacifist run but I found it too frustratingly difficult, fortunately I could just hack the save file a bit to get me through the last fights.

And yes the morality of some of it is a bit fucked up, but since I consider the whole thing a surrealist experience I'm not going to pick on it.

tldr: It's worth playing to see its interesting ideas.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
jhoroz said:
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Not to mention Alphys' crimes are glossed over because friends are apparently just supposed to do that and forgive you for everything.
Except they actually aren't? If you talk to one of the NPC in Snowdin after returning everyone's souls, they mention that Toriel fired Alphyse from her position as a royal scientist. Not to mention that she returned the Amalgamates to their relatives and confessed to what she had done.
Wow, that sure makes up for it!
Whether it makes up to it is up to you, but I think it's fine in the context of what had just had occurred in the story and Asgore definitely had no intention of punishing her, since it wouldn't have been really the time to do so since everybody was about to leave to the surface and a lot of the relatives of the Almagates gladly accepted them back into their lives, so there's nothing really "to make up for"
Oh, okay, cool. So state sanctioned medical experiments that result in death and physical and metal deformities are okay to go unpunished because the king said so and someone lost their job?

You can't really defend this. It's like the president saying "We're going to try melding the bodies and minds of your dead relatives together so we can go live in England. But it's cool cuz we'll give you them back once we're done."
Wait, wait, wait... what death? Before the experiments, they were what monsters consider as DoA ("fallen down"). Everybody pretty much had already gave up on seeing them alive again. Alphyse was also expecting them to die anytime soon; in fact she was counting on it. Her experiments unintentinaly brough them back to life as if nothing had happened to them, and she was about to bring them back to their families when they mutated.