UPDATE: Video of Females on Female Characters Panel
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
The perspective of the panel was meant to come from players - this is what we want from female characters, and this is what we are or are not getting. Having a developer on the panel to perhaps explain *why* certain things happened or didn't would have been great, absolutely, but the conversation was meant to come from those of us consuming the content.Sir John the Net Knight said:
Here is the problem with female characters in games. If she's a light character, women say its sexist (even though I know many women that would fit that description perfectly) But if she is powerful they overdo it and then we're left with a ***** that is really difficult to like. So if the gaming industry could make a female that had some substance but didn't shove feminist bull shit down our throats every four seconds... We might actually be going somewhere. So lets make females who aren't porn stars or feminist propaganda.
(Apology in advance if some of this has been brought up, but its all alot to read through) Bringing up Dragon Age 2 seems to bring up strong feelings on the forum, but here goes. I have to give them props for having lesbian romance options that didn't feel like pure fan service. Mind you, it was nice to see, but the relationships at least went beyond sex. Secondly, a female character in some sexy little outfit is just fine if the character is well written and not some parody. Being that sexy while remaining a strong and believable character can be very empowering. I suppose its all subjective in the end, though. There are just some people out there, men and women, who are determined to be offended at something. I guess my bottom line here is that character is first, sexiness second. But when they come together in a mature way, its a hell of a thing.
I happen to agree with Sir John here. Sazh was a good character. He had an afro, big deal. I had an afro once yet i took no offence. Sazh's character and story were about a father doing everything in his power to find his son and protect him. Someone who did not succumb to revenge and shoot, was just an all around good guy.Sir John the Net Knight said:
If you take offence to something i feel that the problem lies with yourself. Even if something is meant to be blatantly disrespectful or mean spirited it's each of our decision to get upset or rise above it.
Anyone can find something to get upset about if they really want to. There are stereotypes every sex, weight, race, creed, and leprechaun.
I like how Susan put it, don't hate the game because of the way a character is, hate it because it's a crappy game. Paraphrasing of course...
This is a point that I think should be stressed. As a non white gamer, it's easy to go to the knee jerk 'NO ONE HAS WRITTEN MY EXPERIENCE IN THE WAY I'D LIKE!!!'. Honestly, I've been playing games since I was 6. I'm 30 now. There are just a handful of characters I can really relate to or even want to dissect more to get what they are about. And a lot of those times, it's more the experience than the person.SnakeCL said:
Case in Point, I am in love with the Silent Hill series. As with most lovers of the series, the Pinnacle to me was 2. James could not be any more of a bland person. Not if you made him out of mayo. But I would love to see how all these events and the realization of what he suppressed for so long would have done to his mind.
Anyway, back to the original point that most characters are just small stereotypes or caricatures of commonly held ideas. This very thread almost proves the reasons why characters nowadays haven't progressed to where they easily can reach nowadays. We, as gamers, are always going to bring our biases and perceptions to very game we play. Were people coming to FFXIII with the made up mind to hate on Lightning because she comes close to an overdrawn trope? No. But she still set them off regardless, blinding a few to the changing of the character. As far as I remember, the transformation of Lightning was not that subtle.
So why do it at all? Why not just make anime cliche 27 if Lightning will always be held to that and if 4 points out of 10 fit, we'll just call her anime cliche number 27? In this very forum, we have the Brink Trailer thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.271079-Trailers-Brink-A-Matter-of-Class-Trailer]. Count how many times people liken a class based shooter to TF2. And how many are willing to pass instead of keeping an open mind and ready to try something that is as new as it can be, with everything done under the sun.
As a black gamer, yeah, I KNOW there are horrible stereotypes that people (in this case, game designers) haven't gotten over. But there will have to come a time where we do not lump one for all. Nor overlook and pan a character or series by the 4 points out of 10 method.
If you ever researched Ivy Valentine's character, you would find a woman tortured beyond normal means. A Pawn to a power she dedicated herself to erase. A woman who used her vast alchemic knowledge to create a weapon to destroy what she considered to be true evil. That's not a dumb woman. She has been tortured, hounded, and had her very soul sucked from her, but she continued to fight.
But people see boobs in a dominatrix outfit. 4 out of 10.
Ripley from the Aliens series of movies is a great example of a complex female character, because she acts strongly when her children are threatened without losing her femininity.
I agree that Ripley is a great female character, but I pause at the "without losing her femininity" line here. I'd like female characters to have the range and diversity that male characters are allowed; applying a "but is she feminine?" litmus test is limiting and narrow-minded. We can celebrate both our Ripleys and our Vasquezes. And our Lamberts as well, for that matter.
(Well, perhaps not our Lamberts, as that character was aggravating for reasons unrelated to gender, but you understand what I'm saying.)
I agree that Ripley is a great female character, but I pause at the "without losing her femininity" line here. I'd like female characters to have the range and diversity that male characters are allowed; applying a "but is she feminine?" litmus test is limiting and narrow-minded. We can celebrate both our Ripleys and our Vasquezes. And our Lamberts as well, for that matter.
(Well, perhaps not our Lamberts, as that character was aggravating for reasons unrelated to gender, but you understand what I'm saying.)
That wasn't my point. I thought the worst part of sexism would be something like honor killings, or domestic abuse (not uniquely male on female I know) or generally treating women as property to be bartered with. Seriously, complaining about the glass ceiling or Playboy doesn't really measure up.Eico said:
And I find people who can't take a joke to be annoying. The fact that people still take anything they see or hear on the internet seriously proves that they are overly-sensitive and whiny.Calatar said:Sometimes I wonder if tired jokes like these are counterproductive... I get the feeling that people end up believing stupid things like this merely because they're oft-repeated for the lulz.Mr0llivand3r said:my biggest question is how did they fit that whole panel meeting in the kitchen?
I think if I were a woman I'd start to find it offensive and annoying after a while. As it is, I just find it annoying.
It's a joke. If I wanted to spread my opinion to an audience who doesn't give a shit, I would write lengthy paragraphs on an internet forum about a subject that's non-concrete and tell myself that what I'm saying is fact. You can't even make a joke anymore without someone getting pissed about it.
EDIT: You can't even make an overused joke about systemic socially oppressive stereotypes without somebody finding it unfunny and obnoxious.Mr0llivand3r said:
It was clear you were joking from your emoticon. But it's not funny since it ends up being made practically every time there's a discussion about gender roles. Maybe it would be funny if you were being even slightly original. I can take a joke, you just didn't MAKE one.
I'm not really seeing how making all characters have options to have sex with every other character advances female characterisation in games. It might attract more women who enjoy romance stories but other than that it seems a bit off as a strategy for characterisation in game development. I would like to see more RPGs like Skies of Arcadia that take the more old school interpretation of romance, as in adventure. In that game you can make choices for the male lead Vyse that are either bold and adventurous or sort of timid. It's like, you just have to spot the right option then both the female leads just sort of are like, hell yeah. I think that they missed an opportunity to have an option to flip the lead character from Vyse to Aika so she could have a cool dialogue choice, but hey, whatever. There is no way that the game could have been improved by having some sort of bizarre love triangle between Vyse, Fina and Aika.
I think that Susan is right to say that Yorda is a good character. She is weak, but you get the impression that she always does what she can to help, game AI aside. Is there something about some players that makes them think that she is a "useless *****" because she doesn't hit the shadow with sticks and can't jump far? I don't know. I think that they would react worse if Yorda was a boy. I don't really know, however, why Team ICO don't really consider a female protagonist option in games like ICO or their upcoming game, other than cost.
I think that Susan is right to say that Yorda is a good character. She is weak, but you get the impression that she always does what she can to help, game AI aside. Is there something about some players that makes them think that she is a "useless *****" because she doesn't hit the shadow with sticks and can't jump far? I don't know. I think that they would react worse if Yorda was a boy. I don't really know, however, why Team ICO don't really consider a female protagonist option in games like ICO or their upcoming game, other than cost.
You're making some fine distinction that I just can't grasp. Absolutely sexism goes both ways, but we are talking about which sex has it worst currently, and throughout history.Eico said:
As near as I can tell, your claim is complaining about sexy women in video games is worse than denying women the chance to go to school or vote (among other things).
You say sexism is treating the sexes differently, and then handwave away cases of the sexes being treated differently as "stupidity." I really don't get where you're going with this.
Or, you know, we are able of basic human emotions (*gasp* even on the internet *gasp*), and people like you are kind of acting like jerks by making the same tired jokes that are made so often you have to wonder if theyr are still jokes or if people actually believe them.Mr0llivand3r said:And I find people who can't take a joke to be annoying. The fact that people still take anything they see or hear on the internet seriously proves that they are overly-sensitive and whiny.Calatar said:Sometimes I wonder if tired jokes like these are counterproductive... I get the feeling that people end up believing stupid things like this merely because they're oft-repeated for the lulz.Mr0llivand3r said:my biggest question is how did they fit that whole panel meeting in the kitchen?
I think if I were a woman I'd start to find it offensive and annoying after a while. As it is, I just find it annoying.