Upgrading Gear vs Getting New Stuff?

[happyninja42]

Just a random thought I had, about game design, when it comes to equipment upgrades. Which do you prefer?

I know mechanically there really isn't any difference, but personally, I find I like it when I'm using the same stuff, and upgrading it, versus just picking up new loot. I get more investment and satisfaction when I'm using that same sword/knife/pistol/etc I had from the start, but I've just turned it into this insane WMD. But when the game just gives you new stuff, I find I don't really care about any of the stuff. It's just...there.

It's like how the first Mordor game, let you keep using the same weapons that you started with, and they had emotional, narrative weight to them. But the second Mordor game just tossed tons of shit at you, that you swapped out ad nauseum, with no real concern for what you had. I dislike that.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Personally I'm a fan of new stuff over upgrades.

New stuff allows me to have a different look consistently on my character, which is especially important imo on long RPG's to make the game feel less monotonous. Nioh is a good example, in which the various armor designs help you feel like you are progressing in power more throughout the game. MMO's are another good example in which the trickle of new gear makes you feel better.

Not that upgrading can't work, but the problem with upgrades is that they tend to make you more reluctant to use new items or even vary up playstyles because you've already got so much investment in your current gear.

These systems are very hard to use together, so I'm going to suck Final Fantasy 7 Remake's dick some more on this.

FF7R mostly uses an upgrade system through out the game for it's weapons. They get away with this because each character only has a small selection of weapons, and the upgrades allow you to basically use whatever weapon you want throughout the game. Plus spending upgrade points on one weapon, doesn't remove your points pool from others, so you never have to sacrifice upgrading one weapon over another.

Then on top of that FF7R has a wide variety of armor and accessories that allow for more min/max customization while also providing the player with the excitement of getting new equipment. It's a perfect balance honestly, but the focus here is clearly more on the upgrading.

Frankly i think that's the kicker. Both systems are fine, so long as the game has a clear focus on one and ONLY one of those systems. When games try to do both, one system will always make the other system feel weaker at least until endgame.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

"What gets the job done best?" is my overriding criterion.

 

[wings012]

I kinda like upgrades, since it feels like 'my thing'. Some of my favourite weapons in Morrowind were nonsense I made through Enchantment. I didn't do the whole Alchemy abuse thing, and you could still wind up with interesting stuff.

I'm not a super fan of new stuff, especially when it comes to shooters. Take Borderlands for example, I could like this gun - I like the performance, ammo cap, element and whatever but eventually I outlevel it and out the window it goes. And I kinda hate it when it happens. After a while all the guns kinda blur together anyway and you'll just end up with E-Tech and Uniques cause they are the best.

That said, I think I prefer customization more than upgrades. I don't want to just replace my barrel with higher damage barrel. I want to tune my thing. I want this thing to have a red dot cause it's my short-mid range thing. And I want this other thing to have an ACOG and long barrel cause its my sniping weapon.

 

[BrawlMan]

For me, it depends on the type of game. If you're doing an action game like DMC, you have to get new weapons while upgrading your old ones. To add to that, you character kit has to start off with a decent move list and abilities. There has to be a right balance between them. If you're melee weapon based action games gives your character only one weapon, they either:

1. Have a large moves set or multiple characters to balance this out.
2. A robuss enemy and boss variety.
3. The combat better between decent and good.
4. The upgrades come based on skill level or at a moderate amount.

3D Hack n Slash/Brawler action games with only one weapon that gets around this fine are Killer Is Dead (you have 4 sub weapons), Lollipop Chainsaw (Juliet has Pom Pom attacks that stun enemies), Dante's Inferno (though I'm not in to the game), Onechanbara Z2: Chaos (you can switch between 4 characters on the fly) and God of War: Ascension.

 

[Dreiko]

If you do upgrades, it should be non-linear. So it's not just a damage % buff but it does things like change the function of actions or give you unique moves based on the upgrade path you chose.


Overall my preference is a hybrid, where some things you upgrade and other things you get new stuff of. Like you can upgrade your magic but get new weapons or something like that.



Some games where you don't want there to be too much loot collecting go for a more upgrade focused approach but I think even in those you can still do some significant pickups like the second sword in Sekiro where it's important to the story and lets you do unique actions instead of just being just another sword with the same basic movelist.

Personally I'm a fan of new stuff over upgrades.

New stuff allows me to have a different look consistently on my character, which is especially important imo on long RPG's to make the game feel less monotonous. Nioh is a good example, in which the various armor designs help you feel like you are progressing in power more throughout the game. MMO's are another good example in which the trickle of new gear makes you feel better.

Not that upgrading can't work, but the problem with upgrades is that they tend to make you more reluctant to use new items or even vary up playstyles because you've already got so much investment in your current gear.

These systems are very hard to use together, so I'm going to suck Final Fantasy 7 Remake's dick some more on this.

FF7R mostly uses an upgrade system through out the game for it's weapons. They get away with this because each character only has a small selection of weapons, and the upgrades allow you to basically use whatever weapon you want throughout the game. Plus spending upgrade points on one weapon, doesn't remove your points pool from others, so you never have to sacrifice upgrading one weapon over another.

Then on top of that FF7R has a wide variety of armor and accessories that allow for more min/max customization while also providing the player with the excitement of getting new equipment. It's a perfect balance honestly, but the focus here is clearly more on the upgrading.

Frankly i think that's the kicker. Both systems are fine, so long as the game has a clear focus on one and ONLY one of those systems. When games try to do both, one system will always make the other system feel weaker at least until endgame.

I'd say FFVIIR does the hybrid thing I'm thinking of, because while getting new stuff lets you do new things at first, once you master a skill you can use it with any weapon so basically each weapon you obtain is like another node in the overall skill tree of the character, there's very few things you can't do with some weapons, like the baseball bat trinagle move or Barret's couple of physical weapons that change his basic attacks from shooting into smacking (somehow his triangle move still shoots thought, I never got how that worked lol).

Where it goes smack dab in the pickup side is that some weapons are more aimed for a magic-based playstyle and others are more physical due to the way materia link on them and the balance of slots vs stats. So you kinda have the best of both worlds in the game which is why it's so much fun.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Just a random thought I had, about game design, when it comes to equipment upgrades. Which do you prefer?

I know mechanically there really isn't any difference, but personally, I find I like it when I'm using the same stuff, and upgrading it, versus just picking up new loot. I get more investment and satisfaction when I'm using that same sword/knife/pistol/etc I had from the start, but I've just turned it into this insane WMD. But when the game just gives you new stuff, I find I don't really care about any of the stuff. It's just...there.

It's like how the first Mordor game, let you keep using the same weapons that you started with, and they had emotional, narrative weight to them. But the second Mordor game just tossed tons of shit at you, that you swapped out ad nauseum, with no real concern for what you had. I dislike that.

Personally I'm a fan of new stuff over upgrades.

New stuff allows me to have a different look consistently on my character, which is especially important imo on long RPG's to make the game feel less monotonous. Nioh is a good example, in which the various armor designs help you feel like you are progressing in power more throughout the game. MMO's are another good example in which the trickle of new gear makes you feel better.

Not that upgrading can't work, but the problem with upgrades is that they tend to make you more reluctant to use new items or even vary up playstyles because you've already got so much investment in your current gear.

These systems are very hard to use together, so I'm going to suck Final Fantasy 7 Remake's dick some more on this.

FF7R mostly uses an upgrade system through out the game for it's weapons. They get away with this because each character only has a small selection of weapons, and the upgrades allow you to basically use whatever weapon you want throughout the game. Plus spending upgrade points on one weapon, doesn't remove your points pool from others, so you never have to sacrifice upgrading one weapon over another.

Then on top of that FF7R has a wide variety of armor and accessories that allow for more min/max customization while also providing the player with the excitement of getting new equipment. It's a perfect balance honestly, but the focus here is clearly more on the upgrading.

Frankly i think that's the kicker. Both systems are fine, so long as the game has a clear focus on one and ONLY one of those systems. When games try to do both, one system will always make the other system feel weaker at least until endgame.

FFS, why do you guys have to make this so difficult?

These are both valid arguments, and I think for me it boils down to the significance and weight of each. Like currently I’m nearing the end of my GoW trophy run, where there’s a few really good Epic armor sets but also a ton of ways to augment their effectiveness with enchantment slots. So really it’s another case where both new stuff and upgrades carry a lot of weight depending on what you’re aiming for. However the weapon side is clearly geared towards upgrades alone, adding In abilities that expand each weapon’s repertoire and effectiveness which grows the player’s bond with them.

In a way the game walks a tight rope between the two, but surprisingly ends up mostly pulling it off because I personally haven’t felt burnt out or frustrated with either. The classic games though, I liked just getting new weapons to use as it did feel frustrating and pointless having to upgrade them all in such a short linear game.

RDR2 is probably one of the few large open world games geared almost entirely to just new stuff. All weapons are unique and while they can be customized, it’s mainly cosmetic differences where bullet types are what decide changes in effectiveness. The player character can acquire perks via trinkets and talismans to enhance their core stats, so in a way that’s upgrading but also doesn’t feel like it because they’re unique items acquired from Legendary animals, completing challenges, or simply exploring.

So I think it mostly boils down to the game type but also the practicality and effectiveness of each system, which means I ultimately had to vote “Don’t Care” lol.

 

[Kyrian007]

This is one where I'm surprised more games don't let us have both as an option. My Time at Portia has a setup I'm surprised we don't see more often. You can get or buy better clothing and armor depending on your level. And for the most part, they do a pretty good job of making the newer stuff "cooler looking" and more desirable. But if someone likes the look of some lower level gear, or wants specific stats added to a different outfit, there is a shop where you can get one outfit upgraded with the stats of another, simply provided you own both. And you can craft a workstation where you can do the same thing yourself with weapons. It wouldn't work in multiplayer games, everyone would just be running around with Noisy Crickets to throw off other players. But when its just aesthetics for single player games, or even cooperative mp, who cares if you don't like the look of elvish gear in ES and so you just "enchant" steel to have the base stats of elvish stuff. Provided you still have to have the higher skills and rarer materials to upgrade it, that wouldn't even unbalance anything.

Aw crap. People argue in favor of microtransactions with "its just aesthetics." That's just the sort of feature that publishers will try to nickel and dime people with, and would probably get away with it. Well, pretend I prefaced all that with "as long as its free." Because if they charge for that option, refuse and boycott/embargo. It should be free.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

This is one where I'm surprised more games don't let us have both as an option. My Time at Portia has a setup I'm surprised we don't see more often. You can get or buy better clothing and armor depending on your level. And for the most part, they do a pretty good job of making the newer stuff "cooler looking" and more desirable. But if someone likes the look of some lower level gear, or wants specific stats added to a different outfit, there is a shop where you can get one outfit upgraded with the stats of another, simply provided you own both. And you can craft a workstation where you can do the same thing yourself with weapons. It wouldn't work in multiplayer games, everyone would just be running around with Noisy Crickets to throw off other players. But when its just aesthetics for single player games, or even cooperative mp, who cares if you don't like the look of elvish gear in ES and so you just "enchant" steel to have the base stats of elvish stuff. Provided you still have to have the higher skills and rarer materials to upgrade it, that wouldn't even unbalance anything.

Aw crap. People argue in favor of microtransactions with "its just aesthetics." That's just the sort of feature that publishers will try to nickel and dime people with, and would probably get away with it. Well, pretend I prefaced all that with "as long as its free." Because if they charge for that option, refuse and boycott/embargo. It should be free.

The term throw around for such option in games is "transmogrification" (transmog) I believe. And, errm, with regards to your last concern, I am sorry to say: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/i...or-with-its-new-transmog-system/1100-6490510/

Destiny 2 has already jumped on that gravy train with gleeful abandon.

 

[happyninja42]

Personally I'm a fan of new stuff over upgrades.

New stuff allows me to have a different look consistently on my character, which is especially important imo on long RPG's to make the game feel less monotonous. Nioh is a good example, in which the various armor designs help you feel like you are progressing in power more throughout the game. MMO's are another good example in which the trickle of new gear makes you feel better.

I find it interesting you referenced Nioh, when Nioh 2 is one of the most recent games I played, that hammered home how much I hate games that just pile weapons on you for minimal, random stat differences. I mean seriously 600+ weapons? Come on.

FFS, why do you guys have to make this so difficult?

These are both valid arguments, and I think for me it boils down to the significance and weight of each. Like currently I’m nearing the end of my GoW trophy run, where there’s a few really good Epic armor sets but also a ton of ways to augment their effectiveness with enchantment slots. So really it’s another case where both new stuff and upgrades carry a lot of weight depending on what you’re aiming for. However the weapon side is clearly geared towards upgrades alone, adding In abilities that expand each weapon’s repertoire and effectiveness which grows the player’s bond with them.

In a way the game walks a tight rope between the two, but surprisingly ends up mostly pulling it off because I personally haven’t felt burnt out or frustrated with either. The classic games though, I liked just getting new weapons to use as it did feel frustrating and pointless having to upgrade them all in such a short linear game.

RDR2 is probably one of the few large open world games geared almost entirely to just new stuff. All weapons are unique and while they can be customized, it’s mainly cosmetic differences where bullet types are what decide changes in effectiveness. The player character can acquire perks via trinkets and talismans to enhance their core stats, so in a way that’s upgrading but also doesn’t feel like it because they’re unique items acquired from Legendary animals, completing challenges, or simply exploring.

So I think it mostly boils down to the game type but also the practicality and effectiveness of each system, which means I ultimately had to vote “Don’t Care” lol.

Well I'm not asking you to declare which is RIGHT I'm curious which you prefer, if you have any preference at all.

I think my issue with weapon churn is that it seems, lately, that games just go crazy with the weapon loot. To the point that it's all just fluff. Which, for me at least, really detracts from my investment in my gear. When the game is designed to consider it all disposable, well, then why should I give a shit you know?

If it has just a handful of new weapons, that's fine. Especially if the weapon obsolescence is pretty wide in game time terms. So I can appreciate the difference when I do finally get a new weapon. Personally though, I just like upgrading something to be more badass, if given the option. This is the knife I used to break out of prison, and it's the same knife (now massively improved with magic/nanos and blacksmithing) that I plunge into the neck of Emperor Presidente McMeanyPants. Just feels more satisfying to me.

 

[Kyrian007]

The term throw around for such option in games is "transmogrification" (transmog) I believe. And, errm, with regards to your last concern, I am sorry to say: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/i...or-with-its-new-transmog-system/1100-6490510/

Destiny 2 has already jumped on that gravy train with gleeful abandon.

That explains why I haven't seen it then, I don't MMO. I balk a little at being charged a subscription (in addition to sometimes up front as well) for the privilege of having to grind. Which is fine if you like grind, its just not a game experience I enjoy. It does make sense to me that's just naturally where publishers are going to fish first in order to hook their whales willing to pay for a stuff like that. Still doesn't excuse the scummy tactic it is though. Its the kind of thing that would put Team 17 on my embargo list if they included "transmog" as DLC in My Time at Sandrock. Especially because it was free in the first game.

Although that brings up a bit of a conundrum. Provided the original experience was satisfying on its own, and I did want more... I don't have a problem with DLC as a concept. So what if a feature that was in an original game, was left out of its sequel... but was included not as its own DLC, but WITH DLC in the sequel that otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with and would gladly purchase? I guess it wouldn't matter if I would have purchased the DLC anyway... but still. If it wasn't the focus of the DLC why not just make it available to everyone in an update? Guess I don't know which side I'd come down on there.