US military to allow women in direct combat

[Vault101]

[snip.

its a thing.....

the "bros" are doing somthing "totally goofy or crazy" and the woman rolls her eyes in both adds and rom coms, or she disaproves of his videogame playing habbits (also due mainstream ridicule of games)

we could throw examples back and forth all day but your not convincing me men have it inherently worse in their portrayal...for every "women" add (which are stupid for eather gender) there is a male protagonist in every movie/game/comic/TV show (actually comics are a little better in that regard)

 

[Yopaz]

As long as all soldiers are all held to the same high standards of conduct and fitness, I see no problem with this. If standards are lowered to meet recruitment quotas, I see a lot of problems with this.

Yeah, this is basically what I am thinking. Women don't have the advantage of testosterone to build muscles and strength so they are on average weaker physically. This is not a reason not to allow them to enter, but it's also not a reason to lower requirements.

In school girls had lower requirements to win a gold medal in sports and they got more points than guys when calculating who's the overall winner. I have no issues with this and I think this is the way it should be. However sending inferior (I am NOT referring to women when I say inferior) soldiers to war because they have received extra points somehow can be dangerous for themselves and their fellow soldiers. I have asthma so sending me to war could possibly lead to disaster.

Let women participate in direct combat, but hold them to the same requirements.

 

[RufusMcLaser]

Actually, the USAF was run by Bomber Jocks until the end of the Cold War and the dissolution of SAC.

True, but even if that were still the case is it relevant to whether woman can attain the highest ranks in the AF? There were and are lady bomber pilots, transport pilots, and fighter pilots- so no matter which group has primacy, women are already among their number.

We're probably getting away from the topic women being closer to the front line because as we've discussed, women in combat aircraft aren't exactly new to the US military.

Your handle reminded me that there aren't enough flight sims with flyable Tornado variants.

 

[RufusMcLaser]

...Personally, I really didn't give a fuck at the time of second posting because reading this thread and the "omg woman power" and the OUTSTANDING lack of information that made people go "omg why hasn't women aren't being trained in the military" gave me a freaking brain aneurysm. This is a much more nuanced issue and a terminology issue and not some huge no women's allowed or women not getting the proper training or women not being allowed in combat at all that people were ranting about.

I mean ffs we have now a woman who served in Afghanistan as a house representative who doesn't have her legs anymore because she was involved in a combat scenario and some people here are posting like women don't see combat. While the issue is certainly big people here are making it a bigger issue than it actually is because of their own ignorance and personal correctness bullshit they like to espouse.

I can't agree enough. Sometimes I forget how disconnected many people are from these issues.

 

[TornadoADV]

Actually, the USAF was run by Bomber Jocks until the end of the Cold War and the dissolution of SAC.

True, but even if that were still the case is it relevant to whether woman can attain the highest ranks in the AF? There were and are lady bomber pilots, transport pilots, and fighter pilots- so no matter which group has primacy, women are already among their number.

We're probably getting away from the topic women being closer to the front line because as we've discussed, women in combat aircraft aren't exactly new to the US military.

Your handle reminded me that there aren't enough flight sims with flyable Tornado variants.

Well, I think the topic has already been discussed, it's great that women in the military will actually get credit promotion board wise for time in combat.

 

[Sunrider]

About fucking time IMO. As long as they are capable, nothing should stop them. You aren't automatically capable just because you're a man either, nor should you be.
As long as they don't make something ridiculous out of it, like seen in Sweden sometimes. "There must be a 50/50 spread between men and women, because HURR EQUALITY", regardless of qualifications. Qualifications should be all that matters, not what you are packing between your legs.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I'm for it.

I've heard some people say that because sexism exist it might hurt people's ability to fight. That's a bad argument though since sexism will always exist until we do something about it. If we said that racism exists so we can't possibly remove Jim Crow laws since it would make people unhappy nothing would get done. With time, the mentality will change. Apparently the army is willing to risk a period of transition and decreased efficiency for this. I'm hoping that soldiers will prove themselves better to adapt then Joe Blow idiot.

 

[CrazyJew]

Coming from Israel where conscription is a must, and women could always fight, this being a "breakthrough" amuses me.

 

[Belaam]

Oh no! But now, women will be killed in combat! Oh, that happens all the time because quite often the enemy dictates where a battle occurs?

Set the physical / mental standards for a job, and let whoever wants the job and can meet the requirements fill it.

As a veteran seconding the helping women achieve higher ranks stuff. I had a friend in intel who left the Air Force and went over to NSA to do almost the exact same job but A) get a lot more pay and B) occasionally get shot at (she also missed a restaurant bombing by about 3 hours and a hotel bombing by exactly 24 hours).

 

[MetalMagpie]

You do know the gear weighs around 90kg counting Ammo, rifle, gun, supplies, etc... and that you have to carry it for long distances at times?

Hence the reason I suspect the number of women in such roles will still be low.

Women have been allowed to join the Royal Marine Commandos for some time now, but I remember the day the first woman actually managed to earn her green beret, because it was in all the papers. She had to pass exactly the same tests as all the men, including the fitness test. The final stage of the fitness test (after running miles with a full pack, swimming in full combat gear, etc.) was getting over a nine foot tall brick wall.

Some women are just that butch. Not many of them, but a few.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

You say that, but I have seen female soldiers allowed to pass even though they can not physically perform their duties due to a lack of physical strength and endurance. THis is done because the government, not the military is paranoid about seeming sexist.

That's been a thing in the ADF since at least the late 80s. Every NCO I've know who's done a stint in training has said the same thing - regardless of official policy there's always pressure 'from on-high' to pass as many female personnel as possible who at least know how to perform their duties even if they can't actually perform them.

Of course, there was much amusing speculation about when such shit fuckery came to arty units and parachute training.

One thing I'd never though about until subjected to a rant about it was how such a policy is not only counterproductive to the military but how it casts shadows of doubt on all female personnel's ability to perform their duties and how they often find themselves having to repeatedly 'prove' themselves because there's always so arsehole who assumes they go into their position because of this fucked up policy... of course the bird doing the ranting (was about 10 year ago now) had spent a large chunk of her time in the army attached to the dirtdarts, so that may have also had a negative effect on her attitude.

 

[the clockmaker]

You say that, but I have seen female soldiers allowed to pass even though they can not physically perform their duties due to a lack of physical strength and endurance. THis is done because the government, not the military is paranoid about seeming sexist.

That's been a thing in the ADF since at least the late 80s. Every NCO I've know who's done a stint in training has said the same thing - regardless of official policy there's always pressure 'from on-high' to pass as many female personnel as possible who at least know how to perform their duties even if they can't actually perform them.

Of course, there was much amusing speculation about when such shit fuckery came to arty units and parachute training.

One thing I'd never though about until subjected to a rant about it was how such a policy is not only counterproductive to the military but how it casts shadows of doubt on all female personnel's ability to perform their duties and how they often find themselves having to repeatedly 'prove' themselves because there's always so arsehole who assumes they go into their position because of this fucked up policy... of course the bird doing the ranting (was about 10 year ago now) had spent a large chunk of her time in the army attached to the dirtdarts, so that may have also had a negative effect on her attitude.

I think the best example of this was when a female trainee who I worked with dropped out of three pack marches in a row and the female PTI went off at her, basically saying that it was because of pieces of shit like her that women get no respect in the army. And yeah, no matter how hard I try, so long as there are lesser standards, I have a lesser expectation of female soldiers. I have seen them physically unable to cock their weapon, I have seen them unable to finish a 5 k run, much less come in at a reasonable time and I have had to carry half of a female soldiers kit because she could not physically keep up. If a male soldier did that, he would be drummed the fuck out, but female soldiers get away with it because 'lol sexism'.

 

[Thanatos5150]

* How did the ACLU actually justify those arguments? My military ignorance showing here, but how does being barred from front line combat duty prevent promotion?

Medals.

No, I'm serious.
At least in the Navy, and I don't doubt this holds true for other services, there was a relatively simple metric to decide who was promoted ("Advanced"), and who was not, and medals played a role.
You see, there's a test specific to your rate (Job), and passing the test nets you a damn' fine bundle of points, and qualifies you for advancement.
These points from the test are added to other points that you would get from your years in service, the number of times you've passed the test before without being advanced ("PNA Points", in the vernacular) and your medals.

There's a number of rather valuable medals that are only awarded to front-line combat personnel.

So, yeah. Being barred from front-line combat can actually hurt your chances at advancement.