Valve Serves Notice on 23 Steam Gambling Sites

BeerTent

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May 8, 2011
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Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
Just because you're a business, doesn't mean you have to be terrible. The goal of making money doesn't excuse morally unjust methods. Letting children gamble, or even adults without regulations to prevent fraud, aren't excusable because of capitalistic greed. CD Project seems to be doing a good job of making money and not abusing customers with GoG.
Well, keep in mind. CD Projekt Red is a studio. They don't have the publishing power and responsibility that Valve and steam has. They have a partnership with GoG. They don't have a product that has grown so massive as to be THE #1 Software distribution service for Games.

Again, I get where your coming from, but to say that, "It should never have been possible for this to slip through the cracks." or even to assume that, would be insane. Again, it's just not possible to moderate every single facet of who and what uses Steam with 100% accuracy. I feel like I'm parroting at this point.
 

Saelune

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BeerTent said:
Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
Just because you're a business, doesn't mean you have to be terrible. The goal of making money doesn't excuse morally unjust methods. Letting children gamble, or even adults without regulations to prevent fraud, aren't excusable because of capitalistic greed. CD Project seems to be doing a good job of making money and not abusing customers with GoG.
Well, keep in mind. CD Projekt Red is a studio. They don't have the publishing power and responsibility that Valve and steam has. They have a partnership with GoG. They don't have a product that has grown so massive as to be THE #1 Software distribution service for Games.

Again, I get where your coming from, but to say that, "It should never have been possible for this to slip through the cracks." or even to assume that, would be insane. Again, it's just not possible to moderate every single facet of who and what uses Steam with 100% accuracy. I feel like I'm parroting at this point.
No, CD Projekt owns and runs GoG.

Maybe if it wasn't a Valve game, their newest one, and a big one, I could agree, but it was a Valve game, and their newest one, and a big one. It was home turf. They should atleast know their home turf. Plus the prevalence of keys and chest drops and the marketpalce's role in all this, to me, supports the idea that Valve is a money monster, not just a business trying to earn a profit. Its one thing in a free game like TF2 or Dota 2, but CS:GO is a full priced game.
 

RedRockRun

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Jul 23, 2009
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This makes me happy, though I lament the fact that it took community investigation and whistle blowing to push Valve into action.
 

BeerTent

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Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
[...]
Well, keep in mind. CD Projekt Red is a studio. They don't have the publishing power and responsibility that Valve and steam has. They have a partnership with GoG. They don't have a product that has grown so massive as to be THE #1 Software distribution service for Games.

Again, I get where your coming from, but to say that, "It should never have been possible for this to slip through the cracks." or even to assume that, would be insane. Again, it's just not possible to moderate every single facet of who and what uses Steam with 100% accuracy. I feel like I'm parroting at this point.
No, CD Projekt owns and runs GoG.

Maybe if it wasn't a Valve game, their newest one, and a big one, I could agree, but it was a Valve game, and their newest one, and a big one. It was home turf. They should atleast know their home turf. Plus the prevalence of keys and chest drops and the marketpalce's role in all this, to me, supports the idea that Valve is a money monster, not just a business trying to earn a profit. Its one thing in a free game like TF2 or Dota 2, but CS:GO is a full priced game.
I stand corrected.

If the problem is with the micro-transactions, and not with impossible moderation standards, then wouldn't it be fair to say that there's a possibility of bias?

You bring up the point of Free paid content. I'll admit to buying Warframe's Platinum, Robocraft's Premium currency, and E-passes/Crystal in Spiral Knights.

I'll take a second to lump in that TF2's lock-boxes and CS:GO's capsules are really the same thing. But again, this is difficult to compare. I paid for TF2, and all it got me in the end was a doofy fuckin' hat. Furthermore, TF2's boxes produce more depth of choice to the player, whereas CSGO's stickers and skins do not. I feel it would make more sense to state that TF2's paid content, along with GTAO's paid content is a larger problem than that of CSGO's or Overwatch's crates. The latter of which I just don't even bother opening when I level anymore.

Again, it's not a practice I agree with, but on those sides of things, I don't make the decisions. The general collective of customers do. And as long as people continue to buy, which they will and there's nothing either of us can do about it, then the developers and publishers will continue to test the waters until they get bit. And it's not up to me, or you to bite either. EA is sure as hell not feeling the sting from my boycott. I will only pay for the content I deem is worth it, which means no to drills for PayDay 2, no GTA shark cards, no Overwatch loot boxes, and sure as fuck no more Valve game Content.

This is made even worse, now that people have put us, the Videogame Consumer in an even more interesting situation. We have stated in the past that we are NOT okay with something in this industry, and then weeks before launch day, we line up for Evolve Preorders. We have a boycott group all playing the game we're supposedly boycotting. We have proven that we have literally no backbone.

This is the state of the industry now. Should we do something about it...? Yes! Are we going to? Fuck no! That would be work! Let's just sit here and type about how wrong it is and feel good about ourselves while we shut off the analytical part of our brains when we see buzzwords.

I've gone a smidgeon off topic. Thank you for making me look up that dealeo with CD Projekt. I honestly had no idea they ran GoG.
 

Saelune

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BeerTent said:
Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
Saelune said:
BeerTent said:
[...]
Well, keep in mind. CD Projekt Red is a studio. They don't have the publishing power and responsibility that Valve and steam has. They have a partnership with GoG. They don't have a product that has grown so massive as to be THE #1 Software distribution service for Games.

Again, I get where your coming from, but to say that, "It should never have been possible for this to slip through the cracks." or even to assume that, would be insane. Again, it's just not possible to moderate every single facet of who and what uses Steam with 100% accuracy. I feel like I'm parroting at this point.
No, CD Projekt owns and runs GoG.

Maybe if it wasn't a Valve game, their newest one, and a big one, I could agree, but it was a Valve game, and their newest one, and a big one. It was home turf. They should atleast know their home turf. Plus the prevalence of keys and chest drops and the marketpalce's role in all this, to me, supports the idea that Valve is a money monster, not just a business trying to earn a profit. Its one thing in a free game like TF2 or Dota 2, but CS:GO is a full priced game.
I stand corrected.

If the problem is with the micro-transactions, and not with impossible moderation standards, then wouldn't it be fair to say that there's a possibility of bias?

You bring up the point of Free paid content. I'll admit to buying Warframe's Platinum, Robocraft's Premium currency, and E-passes/Crystal in Spiral Knights.

I'll take a second to lump in that TF2's lock-boxes and CS:GO's capsules are really the same thing. But again, this is difficult to compare. I paid for TF2, and all it got me in the end was a doofy fuckin' hat. Furthermore, TF2's boxes produce more depth of choice to the player, whereas CSGO's stickers and skins do not. I feel it would make more sense to state that TF2's paid content, along with GTAO's paid content is a larger problem than that of CSGO's or Overwatch's crates. The latter of which I just don't even bother opening when I level anymore.

Again, it's not a practice I agree with, but on those sides of things, I don't make the decisions. The general collective of customers do. And as long as people continue to buy, which they will and there's nothing either of us can do about it, then the developers and publishers will continue to test the waters until they get bit. And it's not up to me, or you to bite either. EA is sure as hell not feeling the sting from my boycott. I will only pay for the content I deem is worth it, which means no to drills for PayDay 2, no GTA shark cards, no Overwatch loot boxes, and sure as fuck no more Valve game Content.

This is made even worse, now that people have put us, the Videogame Consumer in an even more interesting situation. We have stated in the past that we are NOT okay with something in this industry, and then weeks before launch day, we line up for Evolve Preorders. We have a boycott group all playing the game we're supposedly boycotting. We have proven that we have literally no backbone.

This is the state of the industry now. Should we do something about it...? Yes! Are we going to? Fuck no! That would be work! Let's just sit here and type about how wrong it is and feel good about ourselves while we shut off the analytical part of our brains when we see buzzwords.

I've gone a smidgeon off topic. Thank you for making me look up that dealeo with CD Projekt. I honestly had no idea they ran GoG.
I got a whole lot of Valve crates that sit unopened cause well, I hate microtransactions, so it seems we definatly agree there.

CD Projekt doesn't seem to push their name and GoG together like Valve does with Steam. I am fairly new to the GoG > Steam group though, and if not for Steam holding my PC gaming collection hostage, Id probably just use GoG. I mostly just want GoG's competition to motivate Valve to do a better job. I don't want to hate them, but apparently it takes a potential lawsuit to get them going. I suppose I should insert a joke about suing them to make HL3.

As for Valve, CS:GO, and gambling, while Id definatly prefer to not have it at all, if it must happen, it needs to be regulated. Children shouldn't be able to partake, and people like those who are the center of this whole thing, ProSyndicate, and TmarTn, who basically tried to scam people. They own a popular CG:GO betting site, yet on their popular youtube channels, acted like they just happened upon it. That's like if the guys running the casino pretended to be high rollers to attract people when they just had the games rigged.

This isn't just Valve allowing gambling, which I think is what most people defending them think it is. I'm going to add a link to my original post to H3H3's video on the subject, since I think its important to watch, as it goes into detail about all this.
 

Vigormortis

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Saelune said:
Why do I have to be the spokesperson for this? There are plenty of people more eloquent than I, and more informed who can explain this to you. Don't need to be so high and mighty just because I have opinions.

H3H3, Totalbiscuit, and Jim Sterling are 3 recommendations for more info, as they all have videos explaining this stuff.
When did I ask you to be a spokesperson for anything? I asked why you feel Valve must have known about the seedy, shady underbelly of some of the Steam item gambling sites well before anyone else, even though there's no meaningful evidence indicating they had. I asked why you felt that way. If you can't answer a simple question like that without resorting to saying, "Well, just look up some random video from some random jerko on Youtube", then why should I take you at your word? Why do you even hold so firmly to your claim? It's baffling, Saelune. It's why I asked for evidence that wasn't pure, unsupported speculation.[footnote]See: my previous EA / Origin example.[/footnote] I'm not looking for you to explain the entirety of the situation (something I'm already up-to-date on, by the way). I'm asking you why you believe what you're saying. That's all.

If this is how this conversation is genuinely going to go, with you essentially avoiding my questions, then I really am done. I hope it's not, but if it is, then...again...good day.
 

Saelune

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Vigormortis said:
Saelune said:
Why do I have to be the spokesperson for this? There are plenty of people more eloquent than I, and more informed who can explain this to you. Don't need to be so high and mighty just because I have opinions.

H3H3, Totalbiscuit, and Jim Sterling are 3 recommendations for more info, as they all have videos explaining this stuff.
When did I ask you to be a spokesperson for anything? I asked why you feel Valve must have known about the seedy, shady underbelly of some of the Steam item gambling sites well before anyone else, even though there's no meaningful evidence indicating they had. I asked why you felt that way. If you can't answer a simple question like that without resorting to saying, "Well, just look up some random video from some random jerko on Youtube", then why should I take you at your word? Why do you even hold so firmly to your claim? It's baffling, Saelune. It's why I asked for evidence that wasn't pure, unsupported speculation.[footnote]See: my previous EA / Origin example.[/footnote] I'm not looking for you to explain the entirety of the situation (something I'm already up-to-date on, by the way). I'm asking you why you believe what you're saying. That's all.

If this is how this conversation is genuinely going to go, with you essentially avoiding my questions, then I really am done. I hope it's not, but if it is, then...again...good day.
You did not like my answer, so I directed you to some videos that might give you an answer you can better swallow, since you first seem to criticize me for having an opinion about it, and now apparently want it again. But unlike you, I don't like to just write people off, so I will try again to better answer you.

Companies should be responsible for their products. It would be one thing if it was most games, cause Steam is big, and it is not completely up to Valve to deal with every game's issues. But this was as I said to the other person, the newest game made by Valve, and a big one at that.

As for why I feel as I do, well, Valve has shown a massive decline in being a commendable company. They neglect their consumers, and do a piss poor job of running Steam and Valve itself. As such, I am not surprised they took so long to do anything, and even if they did not know, it still paints a bad picture of their lack of attention to their own products.

If they knew what was happening and allowed it, that is shady. If they did not know, its because they are irresponsible, which again is a bad thing.
 

Vigormortis

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Saelune said:
You did not like my answer,
What answer? You made a claim about Valve, I asked you why you thought that was true, you avoided the question by saying, "Just watch some Youtube videos about it."

so I directed you to some videos
No you didn't. You mentioned some Youtubers. You never provided, nor even specified, any particular videos.

that might give you an answer you can better swallow,
How dismissive of you. Classy.

since you first seem to criticize me for having an opinion about it,
I didn't criticize you for having an opinion. I asked you to clarify that opinion and provide me with evidence that supported the basis of that opinion. You have done neither.

and now apparently want it again.
No. I want clarity on why you believe what you're claiming is true. I'm not interested in hearing what you believe, again and again. I only wanted to know why you believe it and what proof you have that it's true.

But unlike you, I don't like to just write people off,
Wow. That was certainly uncalled for. What's with the insults?

And since when is asking someone to provide proof of a claim 'writing them off'?

so I will try again to better answer you.
Or answer for the first time, technically. But sure. Go for it.

Companies should be responsible for their products.
Agreed, within reason.

It would be one thing if it was most games, cause Steam is big, and it is not completely up to Valve to deal with every game's issues. But this was as I said to the other person, the newest game made by Valve, and a big one at that.
Dota 2 is their latest game (if we discount The Lab).

As for why I feel as I do, well, Valve has shown a massive decline in being a commendable company.
How so? Care to elaborate?

They neglect their consumers,
How so? Care to elaborate?

and do a piss poor job of running Steam and Valve itself.
How so? Care to clarify?

As such, I am not surprised they took so long to do anything,
Took too long to respond to a situation they had no way of knowing was in play until evidence presented itself?

Oh yes. How dare they not preemptively respond to a situation they were unaware of being present or even possible. The bastards.

and even if they did not know,
They probably didn't.

it still paints a bad picture of their lack of attention to their own products.
It paints a bad picture of them for not knowing about something they couldn't have known about?

That paints a bad picture of us all, does it not?

If they knew what was happening and allowed it, that is shady. If they did not know, its because they are irresponsible, which again is a bad thing.
Again: If they couldn't have known, why is it their fault for not responding until evidence came to light?

Should I personally hold you responsible if someone comes along, breaks into your car, and steals it? Is it your fault for not expecting that person to come along at that moment to steal your vehicle? Or, more to the point, should I blame you if, despite your best efforts, someone figured out a way to steal your bandwidth through your wifi network? Is it your fault for not knowing that specific person would figure out how to circumvent your security?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are plenty of things to criticize Valve over. Missteps and mistakes. But this? This thing you're doing here? It's absurd.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an answer as to why you think your claims are true. Evidence would be a nice start.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Vigormortis said:
Saelune said:
You did not like my answer,
What answer? You made a claim about Valve, I asked you why you thought that was true, you avoided the question by saying, "Just watch some Youtube videos about it."

so I directed you to some videos
No you didn't. You mentioned some Youtubers. You never provided, nor even specified, any particular videos.

that might give you an answer you can better swallow,
How dismissive of you. Classy.

since you first seem to criticize me for having an opinion about it,
I didn't criticize you for having an opinion. I asked you to clarify that opinion and provide me with evidence that supported the basis of that opinion. You have done neither.

and now apparently want it again.
No. I want clarity on why you believe what you're claiming is true. I'm not interested in hearing what you believe, again and again. I only wanted to know why you believe it and what proof you have that it's true.

But unlike you, I don't like to just write people off,
Wow. That was certainly uncalled for. What's with the insults?

And since when is asking someone to provide proof of a claim 'writing them off'?

so I will try again to better answer you.
Or answer for the first time, technically. But sure. Go for it.

Companies should be responsible for their products.
Agreed, within reason.

It would be one thing if it was most games, cause Steam is big, and it is not completely up to Valve to deal with every game's issues. But this was as I said to the other person, the newest game made by Valve, and a big one at that.
Dota 2 is their latest game (if we discount The Lab).

As for why I feel as I do, well, Valve has shown a massive decline in being a commendable company.
How so? Care to elaborate?

They neglect their consumers,
How so? Care to elaborate?

and do a piss poor job of running Steam and Valve itself.
How so? Care to clarify?

As such, I am not surprised they took so long to do anything,
Took too long to respond to a situation they had no way of knowing was in play until evidence presented itself?

Oh yes. How dare they not preemptively respond to a situation they were unaware of being present or even possible. The bastards.

and even if they did not know,
They probably didn't.

it still paints a bad picture of their lack of attention to their own products.
It paints a bad picture of them for not knowing about something they couldn't have known about?

That paints a bad picture of us all, does it not?

If they knew what was happening and allowed it, that is shady. If they did not know, its because they are irresponsible, which again is a bad thing.
Again: If they couldn't have known, why is it their fault for not responding until evidence came to light?

Should I personally hold you responsible if someone comes along, breaks into your car, and steals it? Is it your fault for not expecting that person to come along at that moment to steal your vehicle? Or, more to the point, should I blame you if, despite your best efforts, someone figured out a way to steal your bandwidth through your wifi network? Is it your fault for not knowing that specific person would figure out how to circumvent your security?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are plenty of things to criticize Valve over. Missteps and mistakes. But this? This thing you're doing here? It's absurd.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an answer as to why you think your claims are true. Evidence would be a nice start.
Most of this stuff I might as well copy/paste my last post. Id directly link you to videos, but you don't seem to want to watch them anyways. Here are the video links anyways, to cover my bases.
H3H3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8fU2QG-lV0
Totalbiscuit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z_VY8KZpMU
Jim Sterling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_SbSdUkc8

As for dismissiveness, you ended your last few posts literally with "good day" because you seem to know everything already. Not exactly good form. You can dislike me, my opinions, or even arguing with me, but you don't have to be an ass.

Dota 2 is infact their latest game. I could have swore Dota 2 was older than CS:GO though. Guess I was wrong on that part atleast.

As for Valve doing a bad job. Well, on the game developer side, they well...don't seem to do that anymore. Hell, I thought CS:GO was a much more recent game, perhaps 2014 maybe, but nope, 2012, so the fact Dota 2 is their most recent game at 2013, with no clear signs of making anything else that considering them a game developer seems hard to do. Ofcourse they could be hard at work at something, but they are being way to secretive about it if they are.

I will give them the hardware side of things though, but its early still and we will see.

As for Steam, there is a SEVERE lack of quality control. So much shovelware garbage on Steam, and shitty publishers who literally just publish garbage game after garbage game run free. I would hope they would have more dignity and pride in Steam to not let just anyone poop in their yard.

And there is a difference between someone stealing your car, and someone running a gambling racket in your basement. If people were doing that in my basement, Id have to be pretty dense not to know it. That is certainly a more equivalent metaphor.

As for proof, I use Steam. I know that likely wont satisfy you, and you'd prefer I link some news reports or something, but I say this as someone who uses Steam, who sees the ways it lacks and the garbage that drowns the store page all too often. And as someone who uses GoG who sees what quality control is.

EDIT: http://store.steampowered.com/app/495300/ Even as someone who has a very negative opinion on him, I really don't need this on something like Steam. I didn't even look for this, but it was there on my store page. Steam shouldn't become a cesspit like those free internet game sites.
 

Vigormortis

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Saelune said:
Most of this stuff I might as well copy/paste my last post.
I wanted to know why, not what.

Id directly link you to videos, but you don't seem to want to watch them anyways.
You can't say I don't seem to want to watch something you never actually linked to me. I actually asked you to show me something. What point would there be in asking if I planned to not watch?

Here are the video links anyways, to cover my bases.
Good. Let's watch the videos....

Was this one supposed to support the claim that Valve is at fault? It doesn't seem to. He spends the majority of his video condemning the players who ran the gambling sites, not Valve. He offers no evidence that Valve had any way to know those players owned those sites. So his criticism and indictment of the players is valid, but he offers no meaningful criticism of Valve.

This video doesn't provide the evidence I was looking for. Maybe one of the other ones will?

Totalbiscuit
This one doesn't either. He spends the entire video ranting and damning the site owners who scammed people. He doesn't even really mention Valve.

Maybe Sterling will provide the evidence?

Jim Sterling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_SbSdUkc8
Hmm, well, he offhandedly mentions that the whole thing further 'taints' Steam's image, but he doesn't really explain why. He doesn't explain how Valve is at fault for the actions of the site owners (whom, by the way, were being dealt with when it was discovered they were breaking the Steam terms of use). In fact, his only real complaint is on the nature of microtransactions themselves, not Valve's supposed 'involvement' with the gambling sites.

So, I'm still not seeing how Valve was either aware of the shady dealings and let them run free until they were caught, or that they were 'incompetent' for not knowing something no one else knew at the time. (this is a false dichotomy, by the way)

As for dismissiveness, you ended your last few posts literally with "good day" because you seem to know everything already.
No, I ended that post with "good day" because you refused, repeatedly, to answer my questions and instead decided to be dismissive and accuse me of things I never thought or said. The preemptive 'good day' was an indication that, if that was to be the direction the conversation was to go in, I was no longer interested in continuing.

Dismissive? No. Frustrated? Yes.

Not exactly good form.
Neither is insulting someone while dodging their questions.

You can dislike me, my opinions, or even arguing with me, but you don't have to be an ass.
You might want to change your wordage here. This sort of thing is likely to net you mod wrath.

I don't dislike you. I barely know you. Can't really dislike someone I barely know. And I don't 'dislike' your opinions. I'm not even saying you can't hold your opinions. This entire time I've only been asking you to provide evidence for the claim that Valve is at fault for the whole fiasco.

Dota 2 is infact their latest game. I could have swore Dota 2 was older than CS:GO though. Guess I was wrong on that part atleast.
No biggie. Easy mistake to make, since the two came out within close proximity to each other. I've made much bigger gaffes.

As for Valve doing a bad job. Well, on the game developer side, they well...don't seem to do that anymore.
True. Well, except for their release of The Lab just a few months ago, and the constant content updates to Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2. Not to mention their extensive work in the VR space and the updating and expansion of Steam, its infrastructure, and its feature sets.

But sure. The entirety of Valve's workforce just sits around all day coding nothing. We'll go with that.

Hell, I thought CS:GO was a much more recent game, perhaps 2014 maybe, but nope, 2012, so the fact Dota 2 is their most recent game at 2013, with no clear signs of making anything else that considering them a game developer seems hard to do.
Would you consider id a game developer? Would you consider Bioware a game developer? Did you know they go years and years in between game releases? Does that mean they aren't game developers either?

I have never understood the notion that just because Valve isn't churning out Half-Life games every fucking year that they are "no longer a developer".

The only game Re-Logic has ever produced is Terraria. Are they no longer a developer either?

Ofcourse they could be hard at work at something,
They are. And I don't say that as an assumption. Alan Yates, during a Q&A session on Reddit, recently revealed that close to a third of the company is currently hard at work on VR projects, with at least a quarter working on Dota 2, CS:GO, and TF2. This leaves the rest working on some undisclosed project(s). Or nothing at all. Who knows?

but they are being way to secretive about it if they are.
Not entirely. See above. But still, secrecy is what Valve does with their projects. After what happened with Half-Life and Half-Life 2 I can hardly blame them.

I will give them the hardware side of things though, but its early still and we will see.
Agreed, in that it is still early. My hope is that the momentum VR is gaining (and it is gaining momentum) continues over the next year or so. This will help bring down the cost of entry for VR, allowing a much larger audience to participate. So far AMD and nVidia are helping things along, as are other devs like DICE, Epic, id, etc. But the biggest hurdle left is gaining a large enough market presence.

Like you say. Time will tell.

As for Steam, there is a SEVERE lack of quality control. So much shovelware garbage on Steam, and shitty publishers who literally just publish garbage game after garbage game run free. I would hope they would have more dignity and pride in Steam to not let just anyone poop in their yard.
I keep hearing about this supposed deluge of garbage hitting Steam, but whenever I peruse the Store, I actually have to go looking for this 'abundance of shovelware'. Most of the time, I have to resort to going onto Greenlight to find it.

I mean, I literally just popped over to my Storefront in the Steam client. I saw...maybe one game that I might consider "shovelware", but that has more to do with it being the sort of game I have no interest in, rather than it actually be fraudulent trash.

Are there shit games on Steam? Sure, absolutely. Are there games with questionable circumstances, developers, and publishers? Sadly, yes. There are. And they need to be dealt with. But just because you or I may not like a particular game does NOT mean others won't either. I would consider the FNaF games to be shovelware, but they are immensely popular.

Even so, what does this have to do with the gambling thing?

And there is a difference between someone stealing your car, and someone running a gambling racket in your basement. If people were doing that in my basement, Id have to be pretty dense not to know it. That is certainly a more equivalent metaphor.
A better example would be someone stealing your wifi to run their own pirating server. Your only clue, which you may not even notice, would be that your bandwidth was slower than normal. Would you still be at fault for that, even if you took every precaution you could to secure your network?

As for proof, I use Steam. I know that likely wont satisfy you, and you'd prefer I link some news reports or something, but I say this as someone who uses Steam, who sees the ways it lacks and the garbage that drowns the store page all too often. And as someone who uses GoG who sees what quality control is.
I could bring up the "just because you don't like a game..." argument again, but I'm still wondering what this point has to do with the gambling fiasco. They aren't even tangentially linked, so I'm curious why you've brought it up.

EDIT: http://store.steampowered.com/app/495300/ Even as someone who has a very negative opinion on him, I really don't need this on something like Steam. I didn't even look for this, but it was there on my store page. Steam shouldn't become a cesspit like those free internet game sites.
And how long was it on your front page? Did it displace the majority of titles also listed on the Storefront? How many people have even purchased the game? How many are even playing it? Is it even popular? What impact has it had on the Steam Store overall?

As you can see by the Store page, it has 'mixed' reviews. This indicates that some people like it and others don't. You're clearly in the latter, as I would be, but who are we to decide that no one else should have access to the game? Who are we to decide what people should and shouldn't enjoy?

A game you're not interested in showed up on your Store page. It was probably there for a day, if that long. I'm sorry for your plight. I too know how it feels to be shown products I have no interest in buying. Do you have any idea how much I hate that Amazon.com displays things I don't want to buy? What an absolute failure of an online retailer. How dare they not filter out all of the products I'm not interested in?

You'll have to pardon the sarcasm but the whole thing just screams of double standards. And I'm not accusing you, specifically, but rather the mentality. That Steam/Valve is somehow egregiously broken and lacks any standard of quality, even though we fail to criticize nearly every other major retailer, online or off, for the same 'problem'. I don't hear people calling out Netflix for having bad movies along side the good ones.

But that's a topic for a different thread. This one is on the gambling, and on that I understand your stance, but I still don't see evidence to support the claim that Valve is at fault, specifically.

As much as I dislike the phrase, we'll just have to 'agree to disagree'.

With that settled, I offer cookies as a peace offering.


Let's be friends? I don't like to fight. I'm a lover, not a fighter.

I'll even throw in a glass of chocolate milk. How 'bout it?