Valve: Xbox Live Rules are a "Train Wreck"

LitleWaffle

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GamesB2 said:
LitleWaffle said:
I'm not sure about this, as I don't have it for the Xbox, but I remember hearing somewhere that some updates were available, just as DLC.

Forgive me if I'm wrong
Nah they're not.

And by update I mean patch.

Bug fixes and the like.
Yeah, I just read about the whole thing on a different thread. So my bad. =P
Not very kind, are you Microsoft?
 

Steve the Pocket

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If everything that's been said about other games being able to release free DLC on the 360 is true, then either Microsoft have been giving some games preferential treatment over others (exclusive titles vs. ports, perhaps?) or Valve are outright lying about this. At the very least, they can definitely patch some of the exploits, seeing how they were releasing free patches as late as last summer (spy limit update).

And yeah, speaking as a PC gamer, I'm still waiting for Valve to announce the Orange Box as a free or cheap-as-free download for all PS3 owners who have a valid copy of the game on disc. When your customers are being screwed over by a third party you made a shady deal with (EA in this case), the right business decision is to suck it up and throw them a bone to show you're not as greedy or stingy as that third party.
 

Narcogen

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Jiraiya72 said:
Eldritch Warlord said:
BrunDeign said:
Yeah the Xbox Live rules kinda suck. More than I thought I guess if they're the specific reason Valve can't update TF 2.
There's no reason Valve can't update TF2 on the 360. They would just need to follow Microsoft's rules (because you know, it's Microsoft's platform). As far as I know the rules aren't that restrictive, just things like requiring certification for the update so that it doesn't negatively affect the console or LIVE in any way.

So as far as I can tell the issue Valve is having is that they want their DLC to just be updates. However Microsoft won't allow them to do this, as Xbox LIVE requires people to download all updates for a game when they play it while connected to LIVE. They don't want Valve's giant updates to be required because not all 360 users have hard drives and the internal memory isn't sufficient for anything larger than code modifications.

So for Valve to release all the PC TF2 content on the 360 they would have to create one or more game updates which are required and release the various maps and character changes as DLC. Depending on how many packages of DLC they create they could have problems with overly dividing the game's community, they certainly would have run into problems if they released concurrent with the PC updates.

So in my interpretation of events it's entirely Valve's fault up to this point. That's a controversial way of looking at things because of the next complication. Microsoft would probably have a fee for hosting the content on the Xbox LIVE servers. In order to make this arrangement affordable Valve would probably have to charge for the DLC, which is something they are firmly against. Valve probably could offer it for free if they hosted the content on their own servers but Xbox LIVE rules prevent that from happening.

One other rule Microsoft has is that content that can give achievement points must have a price tag. There are only a few exceptions. However I'm sure this wouldn't really be a problem, Valve could just take out the achievements.

Regardless, I see the lack of TF2 DLC or updates on the Xbox 360 being mostly the fault Valve's aloof attitude and refusal to compromise. The rules are there for a reason, policy disagreements between a privately owned company with a couple hundred employees and an $86 billion corporation don't make the rules a "train wreck."
This entire post is just full of wrong. Microsoft wants to charge, Valve doesn't. Microsoft's fault. The end. There's no debating what is fact.
No. The OP had it right.

Microsoft wants DLC to be paid, and Valve does not.

It is Valve's decision to not issue title updates separate from DLC content. Plenty of other developers do. I've never been charged for a title update. If other developers create and release title updates, Valve can, too. Valve is deliberately holding back the title updates because they want to bundle in content, and is hoping MS will relent to please customers who buy Valve products. Let's not forget that Valve has its own distribution platform as well, so there's more at stake here than just a usual developer/publisher/platformholder argument here. Valve wants to be treated specially because, in their view, they need XBL much less than XBL needs Valve, because Valve has Steam, SteamWorks, and the PSN where they are allowed to do as they wish. They can do as they wish on Steam because they own it, and they can do as they wish on PSN because the platform is free, which means whatever developers do with it only helps Sony. If customers like it, great-- another reason why PSN is good (and free). If they don't-- then it's free, and you get what you pay for.

As incredible as it seems, MS has got the right line here. Console owners don't want several updates a day. They want the problem to be fixed, fixed once, and fixed forever. I want to be able to encourage episodic content by buying episodes. I don't believe my past loyalty to Valve or any other studio entitles me to free content, nor do I appreciate free content being dangled as a bribe to jump to another distribution platform (I own Macs and Xboxes, and no PCs or PlayStations) that I can't even get for pay on my platform of choice because Valve doesn't want to charge me for it!

It's nice that Valve is so profitable that they can give away DLC. However I can see the perspective that if you think content is worth something, if you think it's worth paying for, then users should pay for it, and the distribution platform and the developer should both get cuts.

Valve's approach is good for Valve. They get to look like the good guys. They get to look like they're going up against evil Microsoft in a battle of public relations (probably they figure that's an unfair fight, and they're right).

Valve, bless their hearts, doesn't get episodic content. Maybe if income from DLC was an integral part of their balance sheet, they would. But let's not kid ourselves. This is not a case of Valve looking out for us against evil, greedy Microsoft. This is Valve looking out after its own interests, and Microsoft looking out after its own. The collateral damage here is the lack of a bug-fixing title update for TF2.
 

Delusibeta

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Mar 7, 2010
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As I understand it, you can drive round the "you must release pay-for DLC" rule by releasing the content for free on the PS3 version. (See Burnout Paradise's first two updates) The problem is that the PS3 version of the Orange Box was a crappy port by EA who presumably kept the code, thus meaning Valve can't update it with new content. (Of course, I don't know how far you can go before Microsoft starts raising red flags, considering the rest of the Burnout Paradise content was pay-for.)
 

RowdyRodimus

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For a company that doesn't care about money (at least that's the impression you get about Valve from the fanboys on here) and never charges a penny for anything, it's funny what a pile of SONY money will do to that fat ass Newell.
 

thepj

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canadamus_prime said:
Did it occur it him to try and work out this issues with Microsoft?
Microsoft? work out issues? really? the company that had to be forced to back away from becoming a monopoly? yeah never gonna happen, moving on.....

OT: I think that microsoft needs to change it's rules, If valve want to give out free updates then they should be allowed to, that's about it.
 

thepj

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Akalabeth said:
I don't know what Valve's problem is. I get updates downloaded for my other games. Other Xbox games have additional content released for them. Why this isn't the case for TF2 is likely Valve's fault.
Silver Patriot said:
I agree that it is most likely that MS is to blame for this. The one thing I don't get though. It might be a totally different issue or a subset of the FUBARed rules but why was Bungie allowed to make the decision to release free maps and choose to make map packs free, while Valve is not?
I was going to make a similar point to Mr. Silver Patriots here but his summerises my point adequatly.
 

Ih8pkmn

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Apr 20, 2010
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Valve, you rock.

calling an update "DLC" just justifies sticking a price tag on it. Do you REALLY want to pay 10 dollars more for your 60 dollar game just for a shiny multiplayer skin or a new weapon or some achievements?
 

capt_monk

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I skipped to the end to make my point after reading three pages because I got bored, so forgive me if I make a point already made.

Either way you slice it, without actually being able to see the rules MS imposes on developers or publishers, what Newell says is nothing more than PR spin.

I really wonder how much MS mandates pricing because I remember back in the day when the concept of micropayments and charging for dlc was still new to gaming an MS spokesman did say something about publishers charging for content was up to the publisher. I have loads of planes for Ace Combat 6 that were free, and those were new content and not patches to fix balance issues. Not to mention all the free content that EA/Bio-ware has provided for Mass Effect 2

It's quite possible if a developer offers something for free they are just eating the cost and this is Newell showing he is the victim of the "something for nothing" mentality that is more and more prevalent these days.

Also, Bungie has always charged for maps, at least for Halo 3, at one point or another. They probably do so to recoup costs and make it less of a financial burden when the maps are eventually offered free of charge, most likely after they've at recouped development costs.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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thepj said:
canadamus_prime said:
Did it occur it him to try and work out this issues with Microsoft?
Microsoft? work out issues? really? the company that had to be forced to back away from becoming a monopoly? yeah never gonna happen, moving on.....

OT: I think that microsoft needs to change it's rules, If valve want to give out free updates then they should be allowed to, that's about it.
I didn't say that they'd be successful, but if they don't even try and then sit back and complain, then they look just as bad as Microsoft. But if they were to at least try to work out these issues and fail, then it's just Microsoft that looks like the douche.
 

Necromancer1991

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I never blamed valve, I blamed Microsoft for being the greedy bastards they are! Really though Gabe, if you are reading this forum I don't care if it costs both of my legs, I WANT TF2 DLC!!!
 

HyenaThePirate

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When I see the PS3 receive these updates show up, free of cost, in the manner that Valve is lamenting the xbox 360 does NOT allow, then this will be an issue to notice.

Until then, it's just a quote taken out of context by a man who for all appearances has pulled a very large reversal on his support of specific consoles, presumably due to some backroom deals being made with lots and lots of money.

Seems like a year ago this guy couldn't trash the PS3 hard enough, now he's got a hard on for it while voicing more opinion about Sony's competitors.

In some circles, we'd call that "selling out."
 

spiritslayr

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Oct 25, 2008
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To be honest I don't give a shit about the crappy extra stuff they add to TF2. I was and still am quite happy playing the vanilla game. I hate how in the first few weeks after the update everyone is just item/achievement grinding. They should just let everyone use it immediately.
I'd prefer it if they just got on with their better games i.e. portal and half life.
We could have had either episode 3 or portal 2 by now easy.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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BrunDeign said:
Yeah the Xbox Live rules kinda suck. More than I thought I guess if they're the specific reason Valve can't update TF 2.

I wonder how the Wii's internet would work with Valve's update system. Then again Valve seems to not want to put anything out on the Wii so...
I think that it could work pretty well in theory as Nintendo doesn't seem to hate frequent updates. Then again Nintendo's updates takes forever to get and that's just barely an exaggeration. They have the habit of cutting you off when you're halfway there and the storage would fill up with Valves heavy love for updates. If we just could get the Wii and the 360 to mate though...

The real problem is that Valve is too found of making updates to their games and from my experience with TF2 they come often enough to keep me pleased with the company and they get downloaded as soon as I start Steam. Microsoft updates are never that nice... Not even on my computer are they nice. Forcing me to reboot agter bugging me with the update for a long time. Valve and Microsoft are just too different to get along.
 

VanityGirl

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*sigh*
Then how was Red Dead able to release FREE content?

I understand that some of Microsoft's policies are crap, but people who are saying "They charge for everything" are clearly talking out of their butts.
Microsoft has allowed several devs to release FREE content for games, but it's bigger content that you pay for. (Same thing for Sony as well.)

Do I think Microsoft should change its policies? Yes.
 

zombays

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Apr 12, 2010
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Tankichi said:
Andy Chalk said:
Somewhat ironically, Newell also praised the PlayStation 3, which not too terribly long ago he treated like something stuck to the bottom of his shoe [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/77826-Gabe-Newell-Calls-PlayStation-3-A-Waste-of-Time], for picking up the ball Microsoft dropped. "We're really happy with the current situation with the PS3," he said. "We're solving it now in a way that is going to work for our customers, rather than assuming something is going to emerge later that will allow us to fix this."
Wait......Did microsoft Kill his dog or something? Until now everything i have read about Gabe Newell and PS3 has been him hating on it and the people who bought it.....This new future doesn't seem so bleak after all.
Have you ever heard of E3?