Veganism...why?

Vegan_Doodler

New member
May 29, 2011
201
0
0
Jammy2003 said:
Right, I'm doing too much talking in this thread, so I'll shut up and go do some work now instead. Let others have some discussion.
Well there goes the most level headed person on the thread.
Seriously, just wanted to say been reading you'r posts and wanted to say thanks for being level headed and reasonable, those things appear to be dieing traits these days.

I go put my hat on, and then take it of to you my good sir.
 

Lunar Templar

New member
Sep 20, 2009
8,225
0
0
Lionsfan said:
Secret world leader (shhh) said:
Why is veganism a thing?
Because it gives us Telepathic Powers
only in Canadian comics, and he lost to a meat eater :p

OT: i dun get it ether, but then, i like the taste of meat, there for am unwill to surrender the aforementioned steak, or cheese :D cause cheese is awesome.

also, its worth remembering this on simple fact:
eat right, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY
 

Lt._nefarious

New member
Apr 11, 2012
1,285
0
0
Y'know vegans are really the cruellest to animals. Just imagine it; a sheep in a big factory in pain thatjust wants to die. It thinks its time has come and is relieved but the farmer just says "I'm sorry sheep-y but to many people aren't eatin' none of your products or meat so I guess yous's is just gonna suffer for longer until your little heart just goes and gives out..."

You vegans are sick f*cks...
 

USSR

Probably your average communist.
Oct 4, 2008
2,367
0
0
peruvianskys said:
Like it or not, we have the ability to see what is right and what is wrong and as much as it might suck sometimes, we have the great responsibility of acting on that.
That I don't really see being a good answer, but I guess the question is hard to answer.

"Right and wrong" is subject to change over time.
There used to be nothing wrong with "slavery," as you like equating it.

Whose to say in a hundred years plants won't be considered just as precious?
 

Spacelord

New member
May 7, 2008
1,811
0
0
I've always had a bit of a 'playing life on hard mode' vibe from veganism. Like eating normally isn't difficult enough and you want to deliberately handicap yourself for the extra challenge.
 

Seneschal

Blessed are the righteous
Jun 27, 2009
561
0
0
Okay, this thread is a bit heated, but I've heard a lot of interesting opinions. Peeps, stay civil, it's no fun otherwise.

The biggest disconnect between vegans and... uh, the rest of us ("Carnists?" Really?! Did we need an "us and them" category based on dietary habits?) is in trying to apply the morality one usually applies to his fellow homo sapiens to all living beings on the planet (plants excluded because... fuck plants?). This approach inherently demands that they call out normally moral and gentle people as "monsters, murderers, butchers, carnists," or what have you. In essence, vegans want everyone to undergo a paradigm shift.

The merits of this paradigm shift aren't unfounded, but they're still very shaky. The right to not be murdered, which modern civilization has graciously extended to every human being, is itself an unnatural concept, but very much necessary because humans aren't driven by "natural" desires (i.e. we kill each-other for reasons other than food). We already recognize the capacity of animals to feel pain, and we've implemented laws against animal cruelty (to which I don't think anybody here objects), but the extension of full human rights beyond the species barrier is unfounded on a planet where the very ecosystem is based on murder. I haven't seen a vegan condemn a lion for butchering a gazelle, even if we'd definitely condemn a man for killing and eating another man for survival. And if the gazelle is a creature worthy of human rights, don't you think it minds being killed, even for food? How is the lion defensible on those standards?
The other problem is that there would be no clear line after which we'd have to stop applying those rights; if it's not sapience and self-awareness that determines the right to live, what is? An intelligence exam? A nervous system? Ganglia at least? A metabolism? The ability to move? The entire endeavour is a can of worms.

What is a fair point is that the modern meat industry is based on excess. It's definitely not cruelty-free, it's destructive, polluting and hardly justifiable. A lot of our objections to slaughterhouses come from humanizing the animals, so I wouldn't call them rational objections, but even if we knew for sure that every animal except us is a thoughtless carbon-based automaton, keeping them in those conditions would be a hard sell. Justifying veganism with environmental and societal concerns is okay by me. The moral aspect, however, is a million times more complex than most vegans admit, and it delves deep into the definition of life and sentience, something that no one seems to be eager to get into over a dietary habit.
 

LittleShe-Bear

New member
Mar 23, 2011
22
0
0
Seneschal said:
Okay, this thread is a bit heated, but I've heard a lot of interesting opinions. Peeps, stay civil, it's no fun otherwise.

The biggest disconnect between vegans and... uh, the rest of us ("Carnists?" Really?! Did we need an "us and them" category based on dietary habits?) is in trying to apply the morality one usually applies to his fellow homo sapiens to all living beings on the planet...We already recognize the capacity of animals to feel pain, and we've implemented laws against animal cruelty (to which I don't think anybody here objects), but the extension of full human rights beyond the species barrier is unfounded on a planet where the very ecosystem is based on murder. I haven't seen a vegan condemn a lion for butchering a gazelle, even if we'd definitely condemn a man for killing and eating another man for survival. And if the gazelle is a creature worthy of human rights, don't you think it minds being killed, even for food? How is the lion defensible on those standards?
The other problem is that there would be no clear line after which we'd have to stop applying those rights; if it's not sapience and self-awareness that determines the right to live, what is? An intelligence exam? A nervous system? Ganglia at least? A metabolism? The ability to move? The entire endeavour is a can of worms.
I don't condemn a lion for killing a gazelle because a lion is not a moral agent. A human has the intelligence and the means (social, technological, economic) to transcend nature and act in opposition to it. A lion does not have the means to be moral, they're not capable of it, so you can't blame it for doing what it needs to survive, it's no position to do anything else. Humans (in a modern, well-developed society, that's an important caveat) are. It sucks for the gazelle, it may even suck for the lion when a pack of hyenas comes along and steals its kill but these creatures simply aren't capable of thinking in those terms. They can't afford to do anything except think about their next meal.

I'm knee-deep in animals rights literature and philosophy and I've never encountered anyone who advocates extending full human rights to non-human animals. It would be impractical to give a cat the right to vote and a cat doesn't NEED the right to vote. You can't ensure a dog's right to privacy or family life and a dog doesn't need these rights. The rights that should be extended to animals are the rights which they would be significantly interested in, to not be subjected to unnecessary cruelty, to not be killed and eaten unless another creature's survival absolutely depends on it. There are those who argue that in order for rights to be acquired, the subject needs to understand those rights but I disagree. Babies, young children and severely mentally disabled adults have rights but they don't understand them and they can't reciprocate to the moral agents who conferred them.

I realise it's a thorny philosophical issue to determine what constitutes a person, where the cut-off point for sentience should be, what criteria we should use for determining significant interest but that doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and give up because it's too hard. We should strive to answer these questions, if we didn't we'd never have moved on from Descartes, who thought that "an animal screaming in pain is like a chiming clock."
 

LittleShe-Bear

New member
Mar 23, 2011
22
0
0
Whiskey 041 said:
I'm actually sick of all this morality crap.
Then why take part in a discussion of a moral issue?

We are animals.
Agreed.

We are a superior species BECAUSE we feed on both Flora and Fauna, that wecan thrive under any circumstance. Not because we decided to sympathize with lesser species.
Are you saying we wouldn't have evolved to the point we have if we hadn't eaten meat in the past? That may well be true but something being necessary in the past is not an argument to continue it in the present, if it's no longer necessary. You can't build a house without scaffolding but that doesn't mean you have to leave the scaffolding up after the house is complete. If we can get the nutrients we used to in meat from other sources, why not do that? If showing compassion to weaker species does us no harm in this day and age, why not do it? Just because it might have harmed us in the past, that doesn't mean we can't do it now.

They are probably healthier than you vegans.
Was the snide tone at the end there really necessary? It wasn't quite an ad hominem but it was damn close.
 

spartan231490

New member
Jan 14, 2010
5,186
0
0
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.
Please enlighten me, why would it?
Cows and chickens are only alive because we help them stay that way. They don't have the defenses or drive to survive the wilderness. Sheep are in a similar boat. They have some drive, but they feed mostly on grasses, meaning there is a very limited region in which they could survive, and they're slow and relatively small, leaving them vulnerable to predators. Even coyotes can take sheep, and that's while they're being protected by the farmers.

Virtually all domesticated animals lack what it takes to survive in the wild anymore, we've made sure of that. Without the farmers who raise them, they would die, and that's assuming the farmers let them go wild, instead of just slaughtering them for convenience, or selling them to anyone who would buy(glue factories, research institutes).
Abandon4093 said:
Never said anything about being a righteous saviour, you just wanted to know why they'd die if we stopped needing them. I told you.
Ok the righteous think was out of order, apologies, and I already knew what the responce would be because its the same every time, 'if we didn't do time they would die' but like I said it is still fucked up and not a good reason to continue doing it.
You're right, it's not a good reason to keep doing it. A good reason to keep doing it is because meat and milk is tasty and animals lack sentience, so therefore they're abysmal treatment is not of great concern. However, it is a good reason not to stop, since cessation of farming activities would lead to the wholesale extinction of half a dozen species or more.

I'm all for coming up with more humane ways to farm, but being a vegan will not accomplish that, if anything it will hinder it because it with less money available in the business less profitable methods of conducting it are more likely to fail.
 
Dec 14, 2009
15,528
0
0
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.
Please enlighten me, why would it?
Cows and chickens are only alive because we help them stay that way. They don't have the defenses or drive to survive the wilderness. Sheep are in a similar boat. They have some drive, but they feed mostly on grasses, meaning there is a very limited region in which they could survive, and they're slow and relatively small, leaving them vulnerable to predators. Even coyotes can take sheep, and that's while they're being protected by the farmers.

Virtually all domesticated animals lack what it takes to survive in the wild anymore, we've made sure of that. Without the farmers who raise them, they would die, and that's assuming the farmers let them go wild, instead of just slaughtering them for convenience, or selling them to anyone who would buy(glue factories, research institutes).
Abandon4093 said:
Never said anything about being a righteous saviour, you just wanted to know why they'd die if we stopped needing them. I told you.
Ok the righteous think was out of order, apologies, and I already knew what the responce would be because its the same every time, 'if we didn't do time they would die' but like I said it is still fucked up and not a good reason to continue doing it.
You're right, it's not a good reason to keep doing it. A good reason to keep doing it is because meat and milk is tasty and animals lack sentience, so therefore they're abysmal treatment is not of great concern. However, it is a good reason not to stop, since cessation of farming activities would lead to the wholesale extinction of half a dozen species or more.

I'm all for coming up with more humane ways to farm, but being a vegan will not accomplish that, if anything it will hinder it because it with less money available in the business less profitable methods of conducting it are more likely to fail.
Except animals are sentient.

Sapience is what separates humans from animals.

A sentient creature can still feel pain and emotions. Those emotions may not be as advanced as our own, but you're still a dick if you torture an animal.

I don't think we should stop eating meat, but I also believe in animal welfare, and that any animals under our care should be kept healthy and happy until the day they die.

Whether they're a dog, cat, cow or pig.

Just because we eat meat, doesn't mean we need to cause unnecessary suffering.
 

LittleShe-Bear

New member
Mar 23, 2011
22
0
0
spartan231490 said:
A good reason to keep doing it is because meat and milk is tasty and animals lack sentience, so therefore they're abysmal treatment is not of great concern.
1. Palate =/= morality. Humans might taste like particularly sweet pork but that doesn't justify cannibalism. You need more justification than, "it's tasty."

2. I think complex animals like sheep, cows, pigs and chickens are sentient. Sentience just means the ability to have subjective experiences like pain, fear, happiness, excitement, pleasure etc. I think you might be conflating sentience with more complex levels of consciousness like intentionality or self-awareness? If a being is capable of feeling pain then I'd hope that abysmal treatment of it should be of concern.
 
Mar 7, 2012
283
0
0
Vegan here.

I just disagree with the way animals are harvested in such a way. That, and most animal products are REALLY gross.

It's really not that bad being vegan because there are so many good fruits and vegetables. If there's one downside, it's that it's difficult to find good vegan food to make quickly.
 

LittleShe-Bear

New member
Mar 23, 2011
22
0
0
Whiskey 041 said:
You want the honest reason I could give a damn about veganism and animal rights? It's because I love meat. It tastes good, It fills you up, it give me protein, and It make me feel damn good to get into that coral with my dog and herd cattle. Maybe I'm not as evolved as the master vegan race, but when I ask myself what I am, a predator or prey, my answer will be and always will be:

I'm the fucking predator, and I like it that way.
You're also the guy who feels the need to lose his temper, insult and swear at people during perfectly civil discussions. Go you, Mr. Predator.
 

spartan231490

New member
Jan 14, 2010
5,186
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Vegan_Doodler said:
spartan231490 said:
Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.
Please enlighten me, why would it?
Cows and chickens are only alive because we help them stay that way. They don't have the defenses or drive to survive the wilderness. Sheep are in a similar boat. They have some drive, but they feed mostly on grasses, meaning there is a very limited region in which they could survive, and they're slow and relatively small, leaving them vulnerable to predators. Even coyotes can take sheep, and that's while they're being protected by the farmers.

Virtually all domesticated animals lack what it takes to survive in the wild anymore, we've made sure of that. Without the farmers who raise them, they would die, and that's assuming the farmers let them go wild, instead of just slaughtering them for convenience, or selling them to anyone who would buy(glue factories, research institutes).
Abandon4093 said:
Never said anything about being a righteous saviour, you just wanted to know why they'd die if we stopped needing them. I told you.
Ok the righteous think was out of order, apologies, and I already knew what the responce would be because its the same every time, 'if we didn't do time they would die' but like I said it is still fucked up and not a good reason to continue doing it.
You're right, it's not a good reason to keep doing it. A good reason to keep doing it is because meat and milk is tasty and animals lack sentience, so therefore they're abysmal treatment is not of great concern. However, it is a good reason not to stop, since cessation of farming activities would lead to the wholesale extinction of half a dozen species or more.

I'm all for coming up with more humane ways to farm, but being a vegan will not accomplish that, if anything it will hinder it because it with less money available in the business less profitable methods of conducting it are more likely to fail.
Except animals are sentient.

Sapience is what separates humans from animals.

A sentient creature can still feel pain and emotions. Those emotions may not be as advanced as our own, but you're still a dick if you torture an animal.

I don't think we should stop eating meat, but I also believe in animal welfare, and that any animals under our care should be kept healthy and happy until the day they die.

Whether they're a dog, cat, cow or pig.

Just because we eat meat, doesn't mean we need to cause unnecessary suffering.
Did you not even read my post? I said I was all for finding more humane methods of farming.

That aside, there are many definitions of sentience, I personally follow the definition put forth in Stargate SG-1. A creature that is sentient is self-aware, fears their own death, is conscious, and can think independently. I just don't feel that animals fall into that category, and I'm far from alone in the matter. A quick google search will show that any conclusion about animal sentience is hotly contested.

The fact is, sentient or not, we are superior to animals, and I have no moral obligation to treat them as my equal. I would not wish for an animal to be put through unnecessary suffering, but I do not value their comfort so much that I will spend extra money, let alone put my health at risk, or force myself to second guess every meal to make sure it's not only vegan but that it also provides enough protein and minerals to replace the nutritional benefits of meat, just to save them from discomfort.

Further, anyone who says they do is lying, because if they did, they would sell their gaming supplies to donate to the SPCA or to save the tigers, or to prevent deforestation, or even going out into the wilderness to provide food and shelter to wild animals during harsh winters. Life is cruel and painful, I will not make mine more so just to make an animal's less so.
 

Eamar

New member
Feb 22, 2012
1,317
0
0
Whiskey 041 said:
You want the honest reason I could give a damn about veganism and animal rights? It's because I love meat. It tastes good, It fills you up, it give me protein, and It make me feel damn good to get into that coral with my dog and herd cattle. Maybe I'm not as evolved as the master vegan race, but when I ask myself what I am, a predator or prey, my answer will be and always will be:

I'm the fucking predator, and I like it that way.
Dude, why so hostile? Do you feel threatened by the existence of vegans? There's absolutely no need to be throwing insults and bad language around.