"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[Damien Black]

2. Gender roles and patriarchy are the reason for those problems that men face too. I really don't get how people always miss that.

...because you and the OP have been using language which is incredibly charged and villainizes an entire 50% of the population. No matter what you reasons, your terminology is aggressive and will be perceived as such. Especially by those of us males who detest the notion of being clumped into a specific societal conception of gender, masculinity, or patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some vast conspiracy, it is a term used to describe the typical distribution of power and wealth within society. Whoever told you otherwise is a moron. This unjust distribution of power and wealth is the root of a major chunk of society's problems.

Are you intentionally not reading what people type?

I was discussing the connotations of the word and how it will be perceived by those who aren't approaching it from an already feminist mindset. I was, in point of fact, trying to help you understand that while your points are valid, the way in which you express them is detrimental to rational discourse or the dissemination of your views. Calling people morons because they have a different definition for a term that you have failed to define it ignorant and close-minded in the extreme.

As for an "unjust distribution of wealth and power", there is little evidence to back up the claim that women have an equal desire for those things. Perhaps that aversion comes from the fact that most top positions are seen as a "men's world", which would discourage women from entering or pursuing such careers. On the other hand, it could equally be true that women are happy making sightly less and working slightly less to avoid ruining their happiness in a race to the top. Are all of these societal? Yes, of course, but that doesn't mean that wealth and power are inherently good things to have because, let's face it, once you have the basic freedoms, the rest comes down to choice. I may not have the freedom to walk down a dark alley in Detroit without worrying about getting shanked for wearing nice clothes and being white, but that doesn't mean I think it's unjust. Similarly, as I wasn't born into a rich family I am at an inherent disadvantage for rising financially in the world... that doesn't mean I feel cheated out of something I didn't actually want. I know that I, as a male, have very little desire to fight my way to the top of a corporate or governmental ladder.

Further, while I don't know where you or the OP are from, America is the society I am most familiar with. Culture here cannot be easily categorized into singular entities. The south and midwest are culturally more entrenched in misogynistic and racist attitudes. As are backwater areas of the rest of the country. Yet that doesn't mean that American society as a whole is such. Nor does it mean that there aren't industries and areas dominated by extremely female, or non-white oriented perspectives.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one.

No, it's a specific term for a specific thing. I'm sorry you don't like the specific words that comprise the term, but your preferences don't really weigh into what the term means, whether the term is an accurate description of the thing it was created to describe, or how people use it.

And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

Wow, you really haven't been keeping up with current events, have you?

Alright, you're not getting the semantics here: "nose cone" is a specific term for a specific thing, but the "nose" part is only figuratively a nose; it is the nose, or tip, of the plane. "On the nose" and so on.

I like how you think you can argue with the term people use for a concept. The term means what people use it to mean, and your opinion re: their word choice for the term doesn't actually have any bearing on anything.

As for birth control, yes, it's a hot button issue. But it's been several years since people were marching in the streets over it; it's a long, slow burning war, not a hot fresh battle.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/03/07/new-hampshire-naral-protests-birth-control-bill-with-bayer-asprin
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/19/3501545/missouri-now-drops-toilet-paper.html
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/02/04/Church-s-stand-protested.html

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one.

No, it's a specific term for a specific thing. I'm sorry you don't like the specific words that comprise the term, but your preferences don't really weigh into what the term means, whether the term is an accurate description of the thing it was created to describe, or how people use it.

And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

Wow, you really haven't been keeping up with current events, have you?

Alright, you're not getting the semantics here: "nose cone" is a specific term for a specific thing, but the "nose" part is only figuratively a nose; it is the nose, or tip, of the plane. "On the nose" and so on.

I like how you think you can argue with the term people use for a concept. The term means what people use it to mean, and your opinion re: their word choice for the term doesn't actually have any bearing on anything.

As for birth control, yes, it's a hot button issue. But it's been several years since people were marching in the streets over it; it's a long, slow burning war, not a hot fresh battle.

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/02/04/Church-s-stand-protested.html

Okay, you've got one local chapter of NOW with "nearly a dozen" protestors. Show me a mass movement on the level of the Slut Walks, or heck, the million woman march from around a decade ago. You're not going to find it.

As for the definition of words: I agree with you, but it's you and the feminists who have defined "slut shaming" as being different from "slut" and "shaming" who have the irrelevant opinion on the meaning of a word. This is ultimately politics we're talking about; it almost always comes down to using words that people understand. If you go redefining words like that, you're going to have to deal with people pointing out that you're arguing for something different than you think you are.

edit: I missed the other article. Unfortunately for you, it's about slut shaming. Why do you think they're mad at Limbaugh? He used the word slut to describe a woman.

 

[Damien Black]

Often times I bring up the restaurant/club/drink/door/whatever thing and people jump on me because it's "no big deal." But that line of thinking doesn't hold up - after all, how much effort was it for blacks to walk the extra twenty feet to the back of the bus? They didn't fight it because it was a huge inconvenience, they fought it because of the principle of the thing.

Oh, I detest it as well, but I will stand firm in saying that it's not "discrimination". Assumptions of superiority are never discriminatory, though they may result in inconveniences. The reason blacks needed to walk further to the bus stop was because of an entrenched cultural assumption of inferiority... not an assumption of superiority.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for a more general assumption of equality to take hold, but saying that such things are discrimination trivializes true discrimination and the psychological harm of such.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Okay, you've got one local chapter of NOW with "nearly a dozen" protestors. Show me a mass movement on the level of the Slut Walks, or heck, the million woman march from around a decade ago. You're not going to find it.

Haha, please look at the entire post. I tossed some links up there that I got from googling "birth control protests" for about 10 seconds. You can find some more yourself. You can find even more if you google "pro-choice protests."

Example:

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/the_pro_choice_reawakening/

As for the definition of words: I agree with you, but it's you and the feminists who have defined "slut shaming" as being different from "slut" and "shaming" who have the irrelevant opinion on the meaning of a word. This is ultimately politics we're talking about; it almost always comes down to using words that people understand. If you go redefining words like that, you're going to have to deal with people pointing out that you're arguing for something different than you think you are.

That's a lovely opinion you have. Sadly, it has nothing to do with what people use the term for.

 

[Suicidejim]

Oh good grief, this is like watching a car crash in slow motion, and in paragraph format. Out of curiosity, why is it that the gender oriented threads are always the ones that seem to get completely out of control? Battle between the sexes indeed.

I didn't really get much attention from girls in high school (read as: "I did on several occasions, but completely misread the signals almost every time and only clued in to what was going on years later"), so I suppose the whole "virgin shaming" thing was an issue for me, although I suppose not having sex wasn't exactly a conscious decision on my part, so perhaps it doesn't quite fit the requirements. However, from what I have seen it is a rarely addressed issue.

The big thing I think guys have working against them is that even attempting to question most of the 'manly' stereotypes and pressures is, in and of itself, actively considered 'unmanly' or 'gay.' Real men don't talk about feelings, and those real men get all the pussy, which you want, because if you don't you obviously aren't a real man, just some wuss. Any kind of male equivalent of the feminist movement (masculist? masculinist?) would never take off the ground because it would be actively mocked and be seen as a sign of embarrassment or shame. There is no big movement for liberating men of society's expectations of them. Most people would just find it funny. It's like how a scene in a film of a man sexually harassing or attempting to assault a woman is probably going to be a tense, traumatic moment, while reversing the genders turns it into a hilarious comedy.

I'll be honest, there is so much more to this whole issue that I could drone on and on and on and fill up whole pages of disorganized rambling, but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one.

No, it's a specific term for a specific thing. I'm sorry you don't like the specific words that comprise the term, but your preferences don't really weigh into what the term means, whether the term is an accurate description of the thing it was created to describe, or how people use it.

And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

Wow, you really haven't been keeping up with current events, have you?

Alright, you're not getting the semantics here: "nose cone" is a specific term for a specific thing, but the "nose" part is only figuratively a nose; it is the nose, or tip, of the plane. "On the nose" and so on.

I like how you think you can argue with the term people use for a concept. The term means what people use it to mean, and your opinion re: their word choice for the term doesn't actually have any bearing on anything.

As for birth control, yes, it's a hot button issue. But it's been several years since people were marching in the streets over it; it's a long, slow burning war, not a hot fresh battle.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/03/07/new-hampshire-naral-protests-birth-control-bill-with-bayer-asprin
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/19/3501545/missouri-now-drops-toilet-paper.html
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/02/04/Church-s-stand-protested.html

Alright, I see the additional articles you're adding. The thing is, all you're proving is that the old diehards are still fighting; the crashing waves of angry young people are still mostly focused on slut shaming. The rest of it is more traditional, old guard feminists; comparing these local protests to a national movement like Slut Walk is like comparing a protest against a corrupt state government to something like the wars we're just now getting out of. One is localized and not a big deal on the world (or even national) stage -- even if said state government is actually doing something that is important on a national level, people just aren't going to worry about it unless it's in their own backyard. The other is huge and people everywhere can and do get fired up about it.

And you know what my problem is? That the two issues have become reversed in importance. Birth control /should/ be a huge issue, women everywhere and of all ages /should/ be fired up about it and marching in the streets. But they're not; slut shaming is just easier to do something about, or to do nothing and feel like you've done something, so more people do.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

2. Gender roles and patriarchy are the reason for those problems that men face too. I really don't get how people always miss that.

...because you and the OP have been using language which is incredibly charged and villainizes an entire 50% of the population. No matter what you reasons, your terminology is aggressive and will be perceived as such. Especially by those of us males who detest the notion of being clumped into a specific societal conception of gender, masculinity, or patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some vast conspiracy, it is a term used to describe the typical distribution of power and wealth within society. Whoever told you otherwise is a moron. This unjust distribution of power and wealth is the root of a major chunk of society's problems.

Are you intentionally not reading what people type?

I was discussing the connotations of the word and how it will be perceived by those who aren't approaching it from an already feminist mindset. I was, in point of fact, trying to help you understand that while your points are valid, the way in which you express them is detrimental to rational discourse or the dissemination of your views. Calling people morons because they have a different definition for a term that you have failed to define it ignorant and close-minded in the extreme.

As for an "unjust distribution of wealth and power", there is little evidence to back up the claim that women have an equal desire for those things. Perhaps that aversion comes from the fact that most top positions are seen as a "men's world", which would discourage women from entering or pursuing such careers. On the other hand, it could equally be true that women are happy making sightly less and working slightly less to avoid ruining their happiness in a race to the top. Are all of these societal? Yes, of course, but that doesn't mean that wealth and power are inherently good things to have because, let's face it, once you have the basic freedoms, the rest comes down to choice. I may not have the freedom to walk down a dark alley in Detroit without worrying about getting shanked for wearing nice clothes and being white, but that doesn't mean I think it's unjust. Similarly, as I wasn't born into a rich family I am at an inherent disadvantage for rising financially in the world... that doesn't mean I feel cheated out of something I didn't actually want. I know that I, as a male, have very little desire to fight my way to the top of a corporate or governmental ladder.

Further, while I don't know where you or the OP are from, America is the society I am most familiar with. Culture here cannot be easily categorized into singular entities. The south and midwest are culturally more entrenched in misogynistic and racist attitudes. As are backwater areas of the rest of the country. Yet that doesn't mean that American society as a whole is such. Nor does it mean that there aren't industries and areas dominated by extremely female, or non-white oriented perspectives.

1. Why should I have to reinvent all of the rhetoric of feminist theory to appease people who seriously think that patriarchy is an accusatory term? Tell you what, I'll go ahead and do that once It stops being useful, which certainly isn't now.
2. I'm not calling you a moron, I'm calling people who are saying that patriarchy implies that all men are secretly working to exploit women are morons. I'm normally not the dismissive type, but that is just so very wrong. A simple understanding of the roots of the term should clear the problem up, as it essentially breaks down to meaning man power if you look at the parts that make up the term. I shouldn't have to keep defining something that so clearly means one thing.
3. Yes, women must love having to do the bulk of the chores, not having equal representation in politics, and systematically being denied socio-economic status. Normally I wouldn't jump to assume the last of those, but I'm in a bad mood today. Women must love being impoverished. It must make them so happy to know they can't provide for their children.
4. Ha! Hahaha! America is anything but truly egalitarian, though I will admit that if our system functioned somewhat more ideally we might be. We still have a long way to go, even if we're miles ahead of the majority. Just because the problem isn't as big as it was doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
5. As for your last sentence here, ever heard of the concept of the glass escalator? It describes how when men enter into typically female careers, they find themselves being jettisoned up to management positions and far better salaries. The same is true of basically all minority dominated careers.

 

[Kahunaburger]

And you know what my problem is? That the two issues have become reversed in importance. Birth control /should/ be a huge issue, women everywhere and of all ages /should/ be fired up about it and marching in the streets. But they're not; slut shaming is just easier to do something about, or to do nothing and feel like you've done something, so more people do.

I like how some people on the internet will keep on arguing even after they've painted themselves into a particularly hilarious corner. Just admit you might have made an incorrect statement and move on.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Oh, and I was told that I was a man with daddy issues. Lilith was accused of having tits. We're both men.

Erm, no she isn't.

And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted...

You may be male but she sure shit isn't.

Damnit, I keep misunderstanding what those damned little person things mean next to names! It was blue I say, BLUE!!! Oh well, I guess I was wrong for that. Whoops. I keep making little mistakes like that today.

 

[drmigit2]

*sigh* This is a horrid argument, with Lillith leading the troops in blind anti-male hate disguised as feminism. The "Slut problem" does not happen because of some patriarchy, it happens for a couple reasons. First off, high schoolers are assholes, they will find any weakness and just prey on it if you get anywhere near the social circles. Slut is a common argument as it has a negative connotation due to the fact that having sex with multiple males offered little due to the fact that you could only have one baby at a time (ignoring the possibility of twins). Male "sluts" however, could spread their seed with multiple people at once, thus giving them an advantage if they had sex with multiple women.

Looking deeper, there is actually another reason it happens, and that is the typical reasons women and men have sex. Men have sex mostly because it feels good, if it felt bad we would rarely ever do it unless we want a kid. Women have a much more complicated series of hormones that make sex a bit more personal and involving. Thus, while males want to have sex for the sake of having sex and with anyone (usually, society has played it down a bit and it is not uncommon for males to be uncomfortable or a bit bored with the concept of sex) while females are in it for personal feelings and bonding (though like with males, there are exceptions). Because of that, males see no disadvantage in having sex with as many people as possible, thus the "virgin shaming" comes in to play because if everyone is trying to have sex with girls, and one person fails, that means they are probably self conscious about it and you can make fun of them for it. Women on the other hand are more in it for relationships and when girls are in sex for reasons unlike theirs, they find them to be different, and as history has shown, those who are different get shunned because others fear them.

There is no male slut enforcing patriarchy, there is just a bunch of people being assholes like people will be.

 

[chadachada123]

I don't shame sluts, nor do I shame virgins, as I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of virgin-shaming.

That said, it does feel sketchy to date a girl that has slept around a lot, because my last major relationship ended with massive betrayal and heartbreak for me by a girl that has slept with a LOT of guys. Not that lots of sex is necessarily a red flag, but that fact combined with other aspects about her should have been a big hint to be wary of her.

The average girl, though? Nah, I'm not disrespectful of girls that have tons of sex if they like sex. I will say that I'm not as respectful towards women that have sex with guys to get guys to like them, but that's a different issue entirely.

 

[asacatman]

I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems.
Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad.
I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right?
I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases.
I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all.
Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.

About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.

Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.

Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...

 

[bauke67]

I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems.
Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad.
I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right?
I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases.
I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all.
Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.

About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.

Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.

Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...

That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems.
Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad.
I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right?
I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases.
I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all.
Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.

About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.

Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.

Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...

That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.

Opinions are a major part of what makes people who they are. Valuing things is an opinion. Valuing murder is an opinion. Valuing murder is wrong, and I will argue like crazy to convince that such an opinion is wrong. Opinion can sure as fuck be wrong and they can sure as fuck be bad.

 

[bauke67]

I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems.
Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad.
I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right?
I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases.
I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all.
Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.

About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.

Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.

Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...

That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.

Opinions are a major part of what makes people who they are. Valuing things is an opinion. Valuing murder is an opinion. Valuing murder is wrong, and I will argue like crazy to convince that such an opinion is wrong. Opinion can sure as fuck be wrong and they can sure as fuck be bad.

(Sorry for trying to change your opinion here anyway) But an opinion in itself is harmless. It only becomes dangerous when something else is added, like action or some form of insanity. If you think being a nazi is good that's fine. Almost noone thinks that, and so it is regarded as wrong. Any person who is both a nazi and capable of reasonable thinking will quickly realize that doing anything with his opinion is stupid and will result in a lifelong prison sentence(or death depending on country).
Also,per exampe, to think that an opinion is wrong is in itself an opinion, but simply to think that another's opinion is wrong is not the same as scolding someone for having that opinion.

 

[DugMachine]

Both genders suck, simple as that. And virgin shaming stops after high school when people grow the fuck up. Unless you hang out with douchebag man children still stuck in their high school days in their 30's. That shit will never go away with those type of people.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems.
Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad.
I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right?
I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases.
I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all.
Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.

About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.

Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.

Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...

That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.

Opinions are a major part of what makes people who they are. Valuing things is an opinion. Valuing murder is an opinion. Valuing murder is wrong, and I will argue like crazy to convince that such an opinion is wrong. Opinion can sure as fuck be wrong and they can sure as fuck be bad.

(Sorry for trying to change your opinion here anyway) But an opinion in itself is harmless. It only becomes dangerous when something else is added, like action or some form of insanity. If you think being a nazi is good that's fine. Almost noone thinks that, and so it is regarded as wrong. Any person who is both a nazi and capable of reasonable thinking will quickly realize that doing anything with his opinion is stupid and will result in a lifelong prison sentence(or death depending on country).
Also,per exampe, to think that an opinion is wrong is in itself an opinion, but simply to think that another's opinion is wrong is not the same as scolding someone for having that opinion.

I suppose that they aren't necessarily dangerous, but they are wrong. Murder is a terrible thing to value, and valuing something but not acting on it is terrible in it's own way.In my opinion believing something must reflect in your actions, or you don't really believe it.