"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

Silva

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Weighing an issue down with the jargon of an existing philosophy is counterproductive, especially when an issue comes down to the most personal level of people's sex lives.

While it is true that feminism has reached across a gap to alleviate women's special suffering and distress, and that it is a movement filled with brilliant thinkers, it has its faults. One of these is that being so centred on the troubles of one minority and the restoration of equality to that minority with its opposite, it occasionally risks losing touch with other causes for societal issues that are not male in genesis.

One of these issues which should not be blamed on males (including on whoever created patriarchy) is virgin shaming.

This is not a result of the patriarchal nature of society (at least, not purely). It's a result of the competition towards becoming a father, or else towards the learning experience of having sex with a woman.

This competition would exist regardless of a society being patriarchal or not. In fact, the matriarchal societies that have been known to exist may well have emphasised sex as a reward for being heroic, possibly as high up as in royal politics. Even in the Roman arenas, a decent living could be earned if you were lucky and a good fighter, a good portion of which was probably spent in the brothels.

Furthermore, this competition is not simply a framework designed by men: women benefit from it as well. For a start, virgin shaming creates a negative motivation to make men want sex in the first place, which if you're a woman, particularly one who wants sex to be a very available option, is a really great thing culturally.

What do men get out of it? The "winner" of sexual intercourse gets to gloat about it and complete a perceived rite of passage into "adulthood". This is often so even if his performance in doing the deed is shockingly bad.

Slut shaming, as the flip side of this, is beneficial to both genders as well. In the case of women, shaming keeps women who attract lots of men in check so that men aren?t marked as that woman's only, keeping plenty of men free. Women objectifying men, you ask? You had better believe it happens, at least some of the time! These things very often go in both ways. The other benefit of it for women is that those who aren?t getting sex and feel frustrated about it, can take it out on those who do.

What do men get out of it? The security of a) having foreknowledge that this woman is at higher risk of STDs, b) knowing that woman may be an easier target towards having sex, and c) knowing to avoid intercourse with the woman if they dislike having sex with "non-virgins" for whatever reason.

The trouble with these jungle rules which benefit everybody in a more carnal, tribal way is that they really hurt the individuals singled out, in both cases of shaming. Sometimes this goes to the point of suicide. This is the sad part, shaming of all kinds is an expression of human cruelty. It should not be blamed on culture - that dilutes personal responsibility. It should indicate the failure of the person who is engaging in such bullying to do what is right.

Unfortunately, many of these negative cultural memes will probably continue, passed down in generations of high school and middle school students, until human nature itself eventually changes, or else high thoughts of philosophy become part of playground logic. Perhaps the latter will come much sooner than we all think, and that bodes well for humanity's mass psychology. The less pain that is experienced in those years, the more stable we all are as adults. That means a more stable planet, so I applaud every attempt at understanding the full nature of the problem.

I do however caution those who wish to simplify something that is basically a cause of human suffering and hide it behind paradigms that blame some figurehead which we cannot attack, which we cannot individually change. These are the voices of futility, and I demand that we not listen to them. Unless we believe that we ourselves are part of a solution, this problem will not only stay the same, it will worsen.
 

Sinclair Solutions

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I'll be honest, I adored this discussion. I am a person who just doesn't understand society's overzealous focus on sex in the media and in real life. It's a desire that has completely baffled me. I've heard people say it is an essential part of life, and that may be true for most people, but I don't think we need to put the enormous stress on the issue that we do. In the example provided here, our focus on sex leads to insulting people. That just strikes me as absurd. To me, sex should just be seen as a thing people do, it really should not be the controlling force of people's lives.

I must admit that I was surprised that, as a person with feminist influences, you took the time to speak out against a male problem. I'm not saying it's impossible or even improbable, but most feminist influenced people I have known don't really give two shits about male problems. It was a pleasant surprise, and I commend you. Most of your posts are well thought out and your logic is reasonable.

However, just a note of advice: try to keep calm and polite when responding to people. While MOST of your comments are polite, sometimes you come off as bitter, and maybe even arrogant. It might rub people the wrong way and make them confirm their ungrounded assumptions about you. Take this as an example:

LilithSlave said:
Matthew94 said:
And that's where I leave this thread.

If you think "male supremacy" is the source of nearly all of the problems men and women face then I just won't bother with you.

I doubt you'll mind much either.
Then you'll stay ignorant of the truth.
isometry said:
It has nothing to do with "validation from other people", it has to do with deep instinctual motivation that comes from evolution.
Oh great, most "humans have sexist instincts" crap. At this rate, this is going to devolve into an evolutionary psychology/"scientific" sexism thread.

Not to mention psychology hardly counts as a "science" and psychology today can hardly claim anything about human instinct. You just cited psychology today to prove your claim about sexist instincts. Not something about neurology. This sort of thing is as scientifically bunk as Charles Murray's The Bell Curve.
This may come off as arrogant and bitter. If you want to make a point and fully convince people, you need to be polite and understanding. If what you say is true, we all have social constructions seriously engrained in our subconscious that affects the way we think. If you want this to be erased, you need to convince people to get rid of their subconscious thoughts.

Still, an interesting topic and a great thread. I'd love to talk about these kinds of things more.
 

Valkes

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it has to do with simple biological imperatives. A woman can only carry one man's child at a time, so social pressures developed to make her want to have as few sex partners as possible. A man can impregnate as many women as will sleep with him. The more successful a woman is at keeping a sex partner the more social status she has. The more women a man can impregnate the more social status he has. It's simple bio pressures that developed cultural tropes. They no longer apply, but that's where they came from.
 

Epic Fail 1977

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I don't have time to read the whole thread and get more context, OP, so forgive me while I just respond to the OP itself.

LilithSlave said:
This is as common on the internet as anywhere. Of course, most virgin shaming comes from guys at other guys. Guys really go after other guys when they start arguing with other guys, that the other person is a "pathetic virgin". Seriously, how many times have you seen this insult on the internet? I've probably seen it several thousand times.
Honestly, I've only seen it on the Escapist forums, but I'll take your word that it's common.

LilithSlave said:
There are guys in high school who have started admitting they aren't actually super interested in having sex right now, they just want to have sex with a popular girl so that they can brag to friends about "getting laid", to be loved by their male peers.
Mmmm... yeah... sorry to be blunt, but that's called "gay". Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, it's just that I feel it's not a very good way to make your point about peer pressure.


LilithSlave said:
Because a man often literally feels judged for not sexually conquesting women. It's a disgusting pressure men should not have, and I know I'm going to take flack for this, but quite honestly, quite a bit misogynist.
When I was a teenager I just wanted to have sex with girls because they're fucking hot and I was fucking horny (sorry for the profanity, but I feel it's appropriate here). When I lost my virginity I didn't tell anyone about it. Many of my male "peers" (read: teenage boys) asked whether I'd had sex with the girl, and I lied and said no, she and I just kissed. I couldn't care less what the boys thought, I just wanted to keep on having sex with her.

LilithSlave said:
The idea that "men give love to get sex" is a stupid lie. And in many cases, men probably have sex to get love, ...from their peers. A lot of men want to have sex more, just to feel better about themselves. A very, very unhealthy desire and social pressure.
Yeah okay maybe I'm just reading this wrong but I have to say this sounds more and more gay. Men have sex with women to get love from other men? I get what you're saying but I think you're waaay wide of the mark. Maybe I will try to find more time to read the rest of this thread after all. I'm curious to see how many agree with what you're saying here.

LilithSlave said:
Furthermore, I think that virgin shaming and slut shaming are directly related to each. And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.
Yeah, I suppose I can get behind that as a nice (if somewhat unrealistic) ideal.

LilithSlave said:
I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.
That's an interesting point. Take away the pressure for women to be "pure" and there's no "conquest" to brag about. In any case, I see this stuff as largely academic. Human beings are animals. We can and arguably should aspire to be more and better than what we are, but until we significantly physically evolve, I think it will remain an aspiration.
 

Zack Alklazaris

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LilithSlave said:
A lot of guys seem to really erroneously think that men are a minority because because all areas of law like pushing babies on women(the "child custody" anti-feminists, for instance). And that feminists don't care about men's problems at all just because they realize society is a patriarchy and women are a minority(being a minority isn't about numbers. It's about social status. See: apartheid South Africa).

Well, I'm here to say that I hate slut shaming. And that is has another, also horrible counterpart for men: virgin shaming. Sad thing about double standards is, men don't get much slut shaming, as they get virgin shaming.

This is as common on the internet as anywhere. Of course, most virgin shaming comes from guys at other guys. Guys really go after other guys when they start arguing with other guys, that the other person is a "pathetic virgin". Seriously, how many times have you seen this insult on the internet? I've probably seen it several thousand times.

There are guys in high school who have started admitting they aren't actually super interested in having sex right now, they just want to have sex with a popular girl so that they can brag to friends about "getting laid", to be loved by their male peers. Because a man often literally feels judged for not sexually conquesting women. It's a disgusting pressure men should not have, and I know I'm going to take flack for this, but quite honestly, quite a bit misogynist.

The idea that "men give love to get sex" is a stupid lie. And in many cases, men probably have sex to get love, ...from their peers. A lot of men want to have sex more, just to feel better about themselves. A very, very unhealthy desire and social pressure.

Furthermore, I think that virgin shaming and slut shaming are directly related to each. And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.

I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.
I agree and yes the pressure can be very intense. I myself made a life rule never to have sex with someone whom I couldn't picture spending my entire life with. I lasted until I was 22 and then just couldn't take it anymore. All my friends had girl friends and kept asking when I was going to come out of the closet.

In some ways we as men seem required to have lot of sex. We are suppose to please her in bed. Someone who lacks experience isn't going to do that. That creates pressure on us too as a man who is really bad in bed wont last as long in a relationship as a woman. At least that how society seems to view it.

Honestly the whole thing should be a problem because it shouldn't exist. I've never been a fan of things like chivalry. Being pushed into a certain medium of what a man/woman should be denies us our right to choose who we wish to become. If I want to lose my virginity to the love of my life thats just as much my choice as wanting to be a total whore and have sex orgies.

Its our life after all, not societies.
 

MrAkuma201

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Hi I'm a man 20 years old and a virgin and it is my personal decision to be one.

In high school it felt like a dark secret but when I finished school that feeling went away. Why? When I left school most of the people I hang out with are my friends I'm the only virgin in my main group of friends and they don't give a dam because they know why I am. This is teens and to some extent adults trying to look better then other people because they are lacking self-confidence and trying to feel better in some way.
Am I going to force my views on others NO! Who am I to say whats right and whats wrong? I can see what you are trying to get across good thread I didn't think this was still as big a deal as it was before.
 

Rblade

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Rblade said:
the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men. If your not a man you can argue striving for the alpha man position in the pack is stupid, but thats just hardwired in our "wanting to pass our genes along" system. Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself. Thats where sexual conquests, phalus size, skill in sport and gear item level of your paladin rear their ugly head.
Man here and I'm going to say you're full of it. Do try not to speak for me. Because you have those weird issues does not mean that I also have them. Sorry if you have to lie to make you feel better, but I don't want some 'alpha male' position. You're one of the most obnoxious kinds of sexists, those who think they can pretend that everyone of the same gender is like them. So in the future recognize that just because you have some bizarre primitive desire it does not mean that it is hardwired into all men. Have the guts to own up to your own desires instead of trying to validate them as desires all men have with a load of pseudoscientific crap about hardwiring.
you don't understand what I mean. You do things you're proud of, and good at. You try to impress the people around you and that is perfectly fine. That doesn't mean you try to lift heavy things or hit on girls in bars. I'm not claiming any of that is facts but I have yet to meet anyone that didn't seek credit in his activities, everyone in varying degrees.

I'm sorry if I came over as obnoxious, but I hate it when people go on tangents about how terrible men are for trying to impress people they care for. I'm jealeous of people that score easy sometimes and maby think about being an ass to get what I would like. I try not to act upon it, if that makes me a horrible sexist I have no clue what I should be doing.

I see around me a society in which, in the vast majority of the cases, men have to make the move on women. And for that, sorry to say, you will have to impress a women in some way. Maby it's a result of "rules" from decades ago. But until that change I (and I think men in general) will have to "flaunt" their skills to get attention.
 

Nieroshai

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Dreiko said:
While no virgin, my view of loveless casual sex as "extravagant masturbation" shares some ground with this. Simply put, I don't think the trouble of having sex with some random person of relative-high hotness is worth the effort and I feel that you can have a more productive not as emotionally numb existence by satisfying your animal urges yourself when they arise and waiting to find that one special person to love and have proper sex with.


I know I'm a romantic and I put ***** on a pedestal and whatnot but meh, I'm happy being this way! :D
Thank you for saying my opinion for me and saving me from flamewar. To me, personal physical contact is too... personal to trivialize. In my personal extremely biased opinion, love and sex should go hand in hand.



Note, flamers, I did not say marriage or virginity once, I said love. Don't assume it, even though you're itching to.
 

Nieroshai

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Shanicus said:
LilithSlave said:
Shanicus said:
and the majority of gamers are male.
There are quite a few females who play video games. As in, millions of them.

And there'd be a lot more interested and even invested in the hobby, if the industry wasn't so directed toward catering to men's fantasies. And instead, I dunno, have more games like Portal or Scary girl.
Well, yeah. There are quite a few females who play video games. But there are still more male gamers. Simple as that, really (Also don't really see why out of everything I said, that was all you got from it... *Shrug*)

I'm also... well, 'unsure' of your second claim. Personal experience with female gamers shows that most of them don't care about who the game is 'catered' for, so long as it's fun. Granted, the industry could definitely use more games like Portal (though the appeal of that isn't in the female protagonist, rather the humor and puzzles - but still), but from what I've seen the 'Male power fantasy' model isn't bad, as even women enjoy a good Adrenaline burst while crash-tackling a swarm of Enemies in Gears of War.
To this day, my fiancee's favorite game series is God of War. That game with a buff half-naked man tearing apart busty half-human monstrosities and banging Greek chicks for points. Many female gamers, as you say, share guys' gaming tastes despite demographic. Even though, if you really think about it, that kind of sounds like a female sexual fantasy: an over-sexualized powerful male figure on one long fetishistic sexual conquest, serving as a fantasy figure of... good lord... um Lydia? We need to have some words.
Dark humor aside, that seems to be key in a lot of fantasy-based romance novels. What comes off as a power trip for males may very well be sexual fantasy for females.
 

PhiMed

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We're all very glad that you took a class in feminist studies in college. Now will you please move on to your next fruitless endeavor? There's a Starbucks somewhere that needs a hippy.

Essentially, every tenet of modern feminism can be effectively dissected or even eviscerated through either logic or statistics. Since Feminists tend to have difficulties with both logic and mathematics (thus their "every answer is correct" liberal arts degree), they tend to overlook these things.

Please let us know if you need someone with knowledge about something useful to guide you in a logically constructive direction.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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LilithSlave said:
Matthew94 said:
It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
No, imo the problem that most people have with it is it sounds very similar to the same kind of people that say "the Whites/Jews secretly control the world!". It comes off as very paranoid to say that patriarchy/white privilege/hetero-norm is the source of all the problems.

My knee-jerk response to such people is that they should take off the tin foil hat, because it is clearly to tight and it's depriving their brain of blood and oxygen.
 

cobra_ky

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PhiMed said:
We're all very glad that you took a class in feminist studies in college. Now will you please move on to your next fruitless endeavor? There's a Starbucks somewhere that needs a hippy.

Essentially, every tenet of modern feminism can be effectively dissected or even eviscerated through either logic or statistics. Since Feminists tend to have difficulties with both logic and mathematics (thus their "every answer is correct" liberal arts degree), they tend to overlook these things.

Please let us know if you need someone with knowledge about something useful to guide you in a logically constructive direction.
How delightfully paternalistic of you. Silly women with their emotions and poor math skills! Thank god we men are here to tell them what to think and do basic figures for them.

If you want to make a logical argument, start off with some premises that aren't bullshit.

Volf said:
LilithSlave said:
Matthew94 said:
It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
No, imo the problem that most people have with it is it sounds very similar to the same kind of people that say "the Whites/Jews secretly control the world!". It comes off as very paranoid to say that patriarchy/white privilege/hetero-norm is the source of all the problems.

My knee-jerk response to such people is that they should take off the tin foil hat, because it is clearly to tight and it's depriving their brain of blood and oxygen.
the difference is that it's no secret that whites control much of the world.

Patriarchy is not a conspiracy theory. It's the recognition that men have a disproportionate level of influence over society and that they are consciously or unconsciously imposing their collective cognitive biases onto others.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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cobra_ky said:
PhiMed said:
We're all very glad that you took a class in feminist studies in college. Now will you please move on to your next fruitless endeavor? There's a Starbucks somewhere that needs a hippy.

Essentially, every tenet of modern feminism can be effectively dissected or even eviscerated through either logic or statistics. Since Feminists tend to have difficulties with both logic and mathematics (thus their "every answer is correct" liberal arts degree), they tend to overlook these things.

Please let us know if you need someone with knowledge about something useful to guide you in a logically constructive direction.
How delightfully paternalistic of you. Silly women with their emotions and poor math skills! Thank god we men are here to tell them what to think and do basic figures for them.

If you want to make a logical argument, start off with some premises that aren't bullshit.

Volf said:
LilithSlave said:
Matthew94 said:
It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
No, imo the problem that most people have with it is it sounds very similar to the same kind of people that say "the Whites/Jews secretly control the world!". It comes off as very paranoid to say that patriarchy/white privilege/hetero-norm is the source of all the problems.

My knee-jerk response to such people is that they should take off the tin foil hat, because it is clearly to tight and it's depriving their brain of blood and oxygen.
the difference is that it's no secret that whites control much of the world.

Patriarchy is not a conspiracy theory. It's the recognition that men have a disproportionate level of influence over society and that they are consciously or unconsciously imposing their collective cognitive biases onto others.
Give me proof about white people.
 

PhiMed

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cobra_ky said:
PhiMed said:
We're all very glad that you took a class in feminist studies in college. Now will you please move on to your next fruitless endeavor? There's a Starbucks somewhere that needs a hippy.

Essentially, every tenet of modern feminism can be effectively dissected or even eviscerated through either logic or statistics. Since Feminists tend to have difficulties with both logic and mathematics (thus their "every answer is correct" liberal arts degree), they tend to overlook these things.

Please let us know if you need someone with knowledge about something useful to guide you in a logically constructive direction.
How delightfully paternalistic of you. Silly women with their emotions and poor math skills! Thank god we men are here to tell them what to think and do basic figures for them.

If you want to make a logical argument, start off with some premises that aren't bullshit.

I didn't say women. I said modern Feminists.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, smart guy.
 

cobra_ky

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Volf said:
Give me proof about white people.
/shrug. 80% white. 4 out of 5 permanent seats on the UN security council are from predominantly white countries. Take a look at the board of directors for any Fortune 500 company and chances are they'll be predominantly white.

PhiMed said:
I didn't say women. I said modern Feminists.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, smart guy.
i'm a modern feminist. I have a degree in Computer Science. You're wrong about liberal arts degrees.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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While whites/men/whatever you wanna call it do control a big part of the world, that is NOT the same as them (or, I guess us) being the reason for the problems. White men are the reason there's not many MORE problems which very well COULD have been our world if we hadn't progressed our society to such a technological level through manly violent and oppressive wrongdoings.



People keep seeing the bad things in society thinking perfection is achievable and they decry the norm. This is idiocy. Look at the positive side, look how far we've come since apehood. This TOO is the result of "patriarchy" or what have you. No, we're not calling it perfect...because NOTHING CAN EVER BE PERFECT.



No matter the system, flaws or injustices will exist. Patriarchy just happens to have a history of relative success about it, that's all.