Warface Producer Defends Female Designs as "Cultural Relativism"

Jenvas1306

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Friis said:
Ace O said:
all I see when I read this is: "Hey, everyone! Look at the brand new defense we've created for when we're accused of being sexist!! Isn't it grand?"

in all seriousness, in a combat zone, you'd want them flapping around as little as possible
In all seriousness, in a combat zone, you wouldn't want female soldiers.
They're less effective overall and tend to be tactical liabilities as any male soldier has been socially conditioned since early childhood to protect women at any cost.
So if your argument against the female soldier's looks is realism and practicality, then by that logic, they shouldn't be in the game at all.
men really only have more strength, besides that a woman who is well trained can hold up with them.
the reasons you mentioned are psychological and so apply to the female players who are surprizingly, females. so female players playing female characters would be have like females...
having or not having a bulletproof vest makes the difference between death or just a broken rib on both sexes.
 

Friis

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Jenvas1306 said:
Friis said:
Ace O said:
all I see when I read this is: "Hey, everyone! Look at the brand new defense we've created for when we're accused of being sexist!! Isn't it grand?"

in all seriousness, in a combat zone, you'd want them flapping around as little as possible
In all seriousness, in a combat zone, you wouldn't want female soldiers.
They're less effective overall and tend to be tactical liabilities as any male soldier has been socially conditioned since early childhood to protect women at any cost.
So if your argument against the female soldier's looks is realism and practicality, then by that logic, they shouldn't be in the game at all.
men really only have more strength, besides that a woman who is well trained can hold up with them.
the reasons you mentioned are psychological and so apply to the female players who are surprizingly, females. so female players playing female characters would be have like females...
having or not having a bulletproof vest makes the difference between death or just a broken rib on both sexes.
A woman who is well trained can hold up with a man who isn't. Women don't have anywhere close to the same peak physical potential as men have.
But sure... lets see just how much physical training is worth when spent on a woman in who needs to do highly physically demanding tasks in life or death scenarios.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERwzqvs7vvU

OOH! And this one too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSb-ok65KGI
 

Jenvas1306

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Friis said:
that woman is not well trained, she slipped into a job for which she doesnt qualify. obviously jobs that require certain physical standards require them for both genders...

(also, facepalming so hard because she didnt even realize how to use the mechanism of that door...)

sure, there are way less women who would be fit for such jobs as a firefighter or ground soldier, but there are, just as there are men who arent fit for that.

but in a game fitness doesnt matter now does it?
noone goes through training to play an fps and I think its a mistake to try to respresent actual frontlines (everyone should only have one try then).
fact is that women play fps, so female characters would be adequate
 

Friis

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Jenvas1306 said:
Friis said:
that woman is not well trained, she slipped into a job for which she doesnt qualify. obviously jobs that require certain physical standards require them for both genders...

(also, facepalming so hard because she didnt even realize how to use the mechanism of that door...)

sure, there are way less women who would be fit for such jobs as a firefighter or ground soldier, but there are, just as there are men who arent fit for that.

but in a game fitness doesnt matter now does it?
noone goes through training to play an fps and I think its a mistake to try to respresent actual frontlines (everyone should only have one try then).
fact is that women play fps, so female characters would be adequate
Please re-read the comment you originally replied to... more specifically, this part:
"So if your argument against the female soldier's looks is realism and practicality, then by that logic, they shouldn't be in the game at all."

And there was no mechanism to that door, she just lacked the height, weight and physical strength to properly affect it. That woman had been a firefighter for at least a few years and has hopefully recieved the same training as all the male firefighters, something the untrained man didn't even need to break down the door in his first damn try!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjwtdhpcUzw
 

Jenvas1306

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Friis said:
well a lever is a kind of mechanism, even not a complicated one. throw your weight at the upper part for best effect. My point is that its not only a lack of physical strength, its also a lack of technique and how that woman got to be a firefighter boggles my mind (and kinda scares me).


but, you are totally right just saying its for realism sake isnt enough.

I guess we want some realism to our shooters so we can feel like killing machines and stuff. try to do that when your character looks like a stripper or have to play as the other gender which makes immersion quite weaker.
 

AJey

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Because of morons like those guys we cant have good, deep, well-written, well-designed female characters in games. Is it a disease you get when you become a game developer, that replaces your brain with a 15-year-old's? Sexiness has its place and its applications. Putting curves, cleavage and sexuality on a female soldier is disrespectful to a female soldier.
 

Frankster

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Im not gonna comment on the sexism stuff cos ive ran out of energy for this whole debacle long ago. That and theres nothing i could say that hasn't been said by someone more experienced with the whole feminism stuff.

But id just like to say i wish the guys would show some skin too!
They are all bulky and covered up from head to toe, and im not a fan of the anonymous cannon fodder look.

Even if nots realistic, wouldnt mind playing a bare chested dude character with just a light jacket of some sort, like the soldiers from predator.

Would give some eye candy to the gals, a power fantasy for those of us who roll that way (just like being a cleavage showing midriff baring soldier woman is a power fantasy for some female players too, only problem is when it becomes forced rather then a choice) and more variety in male looks.

At least the cleavage showing female soldiers look individual and stand out, the guys look like interchangeable cannon fodder.
 

Rebel_Raven

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*Miserable sigh* Da fack, Crytek? So, I'm guessing players are supposed to suspend disbelief when women are just as durable as the fully armored man? Or did you screw the women over in the durability department?
Will they carry the same gear, and same amount of it as a guy in a combat vest?

Seriously, it's entirely possible to have women in armor that look like women. There's just no need to make them look like pinups.

Also, don't spit on me, and tell me it's raining, Crytek. Excuses don't change reality.
 

Friis

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Jenvas1306 said:
I guess we want some realism to our shooters so we can feel like killing machines and stuff. try to do that when your character looks like a stripper or have to play as the other gender which makes immersion quite weaker.
You mean like this?
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/808/808266/resident-evil-5-20070726113940930.jpg
or this?
http://www.3drealms.com/duke-nukem-forever.jpg
or this?
http://ginguelona.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/mascote_nathan_drake.jpg
this maybe?
http://www.hdwallpapersinn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/prince_of_persia-the_two_thrones.jpg
how about this?
http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/just_cause_2_game-normal.jpg
or this?
http://download.gamespotcdn.net/d4/user_images/401/85756744.jpg
this?
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100613225151/callofduty/images/a/af/Soap_MacTavish.jpg
this?
http://cdn2-www.playstationlifestyle.net/assets/uploads/2010/06/feature-Alan-Wake.jpg
hmmm...
http://this-world-is.boldlygoingnowhere.org/andinet/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/deus-ex-human-revolutions/adam-jensen-1280x800.jpg
mhmm...
http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Alpha-Protocol-MT-Vignette.jpg

Odd... I never had any problems with my immersion in any of these games... heck I get immersed into Journey for the PS3 and last I checked I wasn't a floating cloth creature.
Maybe it's just your imagination that's lacking.
 

bug_of_war

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I get it, the boobs distract counter snipers and the lack of any musculature on the female rifleman shows that she'll blend in perfectly...

But in all seriousness it would be better if they just came out and said, "Fuck it we want em' to look sexy. Deal with it". At least then they'd be being honest about the designs.
 

Friis

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LifeCharacter said:
Friis said:
Jenvas1306 said:
I guess we want some realism to our shooters so we can feel like killing machines and stuff. try to do that when your character looks like a stripper or have to play as the other gender which makes immersion quite weaker.
You mean like this?
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/808/808266/resident-evil-5-20070726113940930.jpg
or this?
http://www.3drealms.com/duke-nukem-forever.jpg
or this?
http://ginguelona.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/mascote_nathan_drake.jpg
this maybe?
http://www.hdwallpapersinn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/prince_of_persia-the_two_thrones.jpg
how about this?
http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/just_cause_2_game-normal.jpg
or this?
http://download.gamespotcdn.net/d4/user_images/401/85756744.jpg
this?
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100613225151/callofduty/images/a/af/Soap_MacTavish.jpg
this?
http://cdn2-www.playstationlifestyle.net/assets/uploads/2010/06/feature-Alan-Wake.jpg
hmmm...
http://this-world-is.boldlygoingnowhere.org/andinet/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/deus-ex-human-revolutions/adam-jensen-1280x800.jpg
mhmm...
http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Alpha-Protocol-MT-Vignette.jpg

Odd... I never had any problems with my immersion in any of these games... heck I get immersed into Journey for the PS3 and last I checked I wasn't a floating cloth creature.
Maybe it's just your imagination that's lacking.
I'm confused. Most of those people seem practically dressed for their situations; none of them are going around shirtless, or with high heels, or, when they're meant to be dressed as proper soldiers, in some form of fetish suit. Hell, I don't even get why you linked Shepard's face, Alan Wake in a hoodie, or Soap in a legit military outfit. Adam Jensen's image is just outright misrepresentation since that's him relaxing; he's dressed in combat gear (with an occasional coat) when he's outside of his house. Are you trying to say that, because there's attractive male characters, it's the same as putting attractive female characters in impractical clothing to make them sexualized?

The problem with immersion and pseudo-strippers is that it breaks you out of the game if it's supposed to be realistic, or serious, or whatever, and then someone who's supposed to be a real threat is dressed in impractical high heels with her tits hanging out as far as censors allow and her having that walk where her hips noticeably sway back and forth. If you wouldn't take a woman dressed and acting like that seriously in the real world, why would you take it seriously in a fictional world that's trying to appear realistic to some degree?
Fair point, but if your argument against the female uniforms in a wargame is realism, then you shouldn't want female characters in it at all, at least not in anything beyond supporting roles away from the actual action.
 

Ayay

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Dec 6, 2009
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Yea sniper boobs and rifleman bare bellybutton whats wrong with that. Tbh i think the devs are just pulling this crap because they get free buzz about it. And half naked ladies sell. Its been that way for ..well forever and it will not change.
 

flamedance58

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May 2, 2008
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We need a game that uses these concepts and actually applies mechanics to it. So if you want a chainmail bikini? Well enjoy your 1 Defense Point and -5 to Cold Resistance.

But seriously, I understand the need for sex appeal but in a war game? Seriously? What's next will we have mechs with breasts and screens on the side that shows the sweaty body of it's female pilot?
 

Xan Krieger

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Feb 11, 2009
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flamedance58 said:
We need a game that uses these concepts and actually applies mechanics to it. So if you want a chainmail bikini? Well enjoy your 1 Defense Point and -5 to Cold Resistance.
Sounds like ideal material for a webcomic or indie game. I'd support that just to show how stupid of a concept it is to have skimpy female armor providing as much protection as all the metal the male characters get to hide behind.

As for Crytek just come out and say it, you like boobs. Don't be ashamed, you're a bunch of guys developing a game for guys and we all like boobs. At least that way you're completely honest. It's not because of culture, it's because boobs are great. Don't try to hide behind saying that's what countries like, boobs are universal thing that make men happy.
 

Friis

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Feb 6, 2009
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LifeCharacter said:
Friis said:
Fair point, but if your argument against the female uniforms in a wargame is realism, then you shouldn't want female characters in it at all, at least not in anything beyond supporting roles away from the actual action.
The argument based solely on the realism is one of scale. A female soldier showing up in a military shooter isn't that unrealistic; plenty of women are in the military, there are undoubtedly women fit enough to qualify for everything a man qualifies for, and plenty of women have engaged in firefights while in the military, and all of that's only for modern military shooters.

OTOH, a soldier, who's supposed to be a real soldier, dressed the way they are for Warface (sidenote: who the fuck came up with that name?) is completely unrealistic unless the warzone suddenly erupted in the middle of some weird, military-fetish parade, in which case it's just weird.

I'm not asking for absolute realism in everything trying to appear at least somewhat realistic; I'm asking for them to at least keep a consistent sense of realism and, though it's off topic, tone.
The roles player characters take in shooting games (other than the Arma series) are completely unrealistic in and of themselves, having female soldiers in combat roles is highly unrealistic as well. The FET in the marine corps is a team of female soldiers that are said to have the same training as other marines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQLH-FUc1rA
Go to timestamp 0:50... yeah... that one on the left looks like a real fully trained marine...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
They are sent out in "safe" areas for diplomatic relations, not actual combat (thank all that's good and holy for that).
So yes... a female soldier showing up in the the roles usually given to players in a war-game IS indeed completely unrealistic.
While there are women who at a glance, physically qualify for military duty in a combat role, there are several biological weaknesses specific to women that would prove detrimental to them if they should fill combat roles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjwtdhpcUzw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERwzqvs7vvU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSb-ok65KGI

I can appreciate wanting less characters being objectified and more variation, but that should wholly go for characters of both sexes. However, using the idea of realism as an argument for making this change is dumb. We're talking about a free to play videogame version of a Michael Bay movie here.
 

seditary

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How exactly would you have a woman in a MMS? Have you seen the gear soldiers wear? An ingame woman would be practically the same as a male so the only difference to the player is a word on a screen saying its a female and different sounding grunts.

But if you take women out because there's no practical difference you'd get the same sexism shouting.

I can't wait until a developer puts in an option for female soldiers that's the same model as a male except a bit shorter with different VA. I don't know whose heads would explode more.
 

Ace O'Hagen

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seditary said:
How exactly would you have a woman in a MMS? Have you seen the gear soldiers wear? An ingame woman would be practically the same as a male so the only difference to the player is a word on a screen saying its a female and different sounding grunts.

But if you take women out because there's no practical difference you'd get the same sexism shouting.

I can't wait until a developer puts in an option for female soldiers that's the same model as a male except a bit shorter with different VA. I don't know whose heads would explode more.
everyone's mind would explode. it would be like seeing Nessie fight Bigfoot in Atlantis while DB Cooper gave blow-by-blow commentary on pay-per-view