Warp Drive Confirmed? EMDrive Warp Field Works In A Vacuum

[Darknacht]

The emDrive does not require propellant but consumes a ton of energy for very little thrust. For something that is already in space, doesn't need to change velocity quickly and has access to a constant supply of solar energy this may work fine once we learn to make it more efficient, but for anything else you are going to need a large fuel supply, most likely nuclear, and even then the low thrust capability of the emDrive will require conventional rockets to get it into orbit before it is even potentially useful.

 

[Cerebrawl]

The science behind this goes over my head, but if I'm understanding this correctly, this device can provide propulsion without fuel?

Fuel yes, energy no. It's laser based, so it still has an energy cost in the form of electricity.

 

[Cerebrawl]

Just stop. This is not a warp drive. This is a warp field being created God knows how inside the device. This is literally worlds apart from intentionally generating a large, stable warp field around a space ship, and controlling that field to create FTL travel. As far apart as the discovery of fire and the creation of a jet engine.

snip

I agree. That's why I said so in the post.

The EMDrive seems to be generating a warp field - which might lead to a drive one day - but more research is needed before we can say that for sure. I've written two articles about this now, and have been clear about the implications and the immense need for peer review in both.

So what's the problem?

My reading of the article makes me think it's more of a quantum tunneling effect(laser photons skipping part of the distance to the destination to arrive faster), but hey, I'm just a layman.

 

[Lightknight]

I'm less concerned that it works in a vacuum, and would be more interested in finding out if it works away from earths magnetic field.

A different drive, but I would have earths mass shadow would mess with a warp field.

I'm not sure why another magnetic field would be relevant to these tests. How do you believe Earth's magnetic field would impact these results? Thrust is still being generated and there have been no questions regarding the Earth's magnetic field from what I've been reading. So you've got some 'splainng to do.

The point being they don't really understand what's happening themselves. They're generating thrust out of, supposedly, nothing. So the question is, what's generating it.

Could be that the drive does warp space in some way. Perhaps in a pre-established gravitational field, it can reduce the curvature of space time. That could appear to be thrust, but would actually be a partial negation of the local gravitational field and is simply not being accelerated downwards as much as before. That isn't a star trek warp field though, but an anti-gravity device would be awesome and possible even more useful. A reduction in the curvature of the space inside the EmDrive could also explain why light appears to move faster inside since the distance it has to move is smaller.

It could also be that the device is some how pushing against the earths magnetic field to generate the thrust in the same way. If that's what's happening, it's not a warp field at all Could be they already ruled that out as a possibility by seeing if a powerful electromagnet effects the magnitude or direction of the thrust.

Actually, it appears that the Earth's gravitational field has been negated by the experiments by being done perpendicular to Earth's magnetic field.

hmmm, do you mean?

Actually, it appears that the Earth's magnetic field has been negated by the experiments by being done perpendicular to Earth's magnetic field.

Because that doesn't necessarily take the magnetic field out of the issue. If the device is bending the magnetic force lines, Magnetic Tension force could cause it to act like the lifting surface of a wing and generate vertical thrust. The flow of an air field is perpendicular to the lift of the aircraft.

The test was specifically designed to take that into account and the NASA specialists cite it when the magnetic field is brought up. I'm not a specialist in this area but I've got to assume they are.

So yeah, if that test was done properly, it works regardless of its relation to Earth's magnetic field. However, the perpendicular tests we saw did appear to generate more thrust than what NASA is producing. So it could be that the Earth's magnetic field actually negatively impacts performance. That would be great news, actually.

 

[Lightknight]

*sigh* It pains me to see how many people are taking this seriously. This whole EM drive hubbub has been around for nearly a decade and it presented all the telltale signs of a free energy machine scam from the very beginning: lone genius with revolutionary ideas, "verification" by third parties that cannot be reached, minuscule effects that can be explained by methodological errors in the experiments and continuously inflating claims.

Right, cause NASA is known to lie and scam. [/sarcasm]

So, what are your credentials? Why should we trust your conspiracy theory that three different continents are plotting to trick us after having tested it and confirmed its function multiple times each?

As for the "warp drive" That's only one study that wasn't even done in a vacuum yet. We just know that the EmDrive itself works. That's what was tested in a vacuum. Not the "warp field" test.

The emDrive does not require propellant but consumes a ton of energy for very little thrust. For something that is already in space, doesn't need to change velocity quickly and has access to a constant supply of solar energy this may work fine once we learn to make it more efficient, but for anything else you are going to need a large fuel supply, most likely nuclear, and even then the low thrust capability of the emDrive will require conventional rockets to get it into orbit before it is even potentially useful.

Right, these will require a Nuclear power plant to go very long distances. That is unless Lockheed isn't shitting us about a fusion reactor (they probably are). Fusion reactors would obviously be the best bet if they ever exist.

 

[GabeZhul]

Right, cause NASA is known to lie and scam. [/sarcasm]

I have no idea where that came from. I am not claiming they are lying, I say they are wrong. Also, NASA researchers (which I am still not certain this guys actually are, as I have heard conflicting reports about their affiliations) and engineers were the guys who managed to crash a probe because they forgot to convert their measurements to metric. They are not made of magical error-proof particles; they are humans like you and I and thus just as prone to making mistakes and jumping to conclusions.

So, what are your credentials?

What do credentials have to do with this? I am not doing a peer-review, I am professing skepticism over claims that are defying some pretty elementary laws of physics. As a rule of thumb, the more outlandish the claim, the more solid the evidence has to be to be taken seriously, and a few micro-newtons of thrust that is just barely above the experiment's error-threshold is not exactly solid ground to stand on, especially if their hypothesis goes up against something as vital as the second law of thermodynamics.

Why should we trust your conspiracy theory that three different continents are plotting to trick us after having tested it and confirmed its function multiple times each?

I don't see where was the conspiracy theory there. Again, what I am claiming is that they are either wrong because of device/human error or that the report has been tweaked to create more interest in the research. There have been lots and lots of precedents for both scenario, and when you couple that with all the other red flags the reports raise it is hard to take them seriously.
Also, three continents? All I know about is the Chinese one (which to this day no one managed to verify) and the NASA one, which is a ridiculously small effect size that is just barely over the error threshold.

As for the "warp drive" That's only one study that wasn't even done in a vacuum yet. We just know that the EmDrive itself works. That's what was tested in a vacuum. Not the "warp field" test.

But isn't that part what this whole hubbub is about? About how the media just grabbed hold of the whole "Warp Drive" idea and plastered it all over the news without any critical thought given?

So yeah, I stand behind my previous claims. I have seen this pattern when it came to "revolutionary research" too many times, and I predict this is going to end up exactly at the same place: a forgotten corner of the net with a small core of true believers still clinging to it even after everyone else has moved on, same as all the cold fusion/perpetuum mobile/hydrogen-fuel/super-battery/tesla-coil/scalar-weapon/etc. people.

Also, here are a few less gushing and credulous articles to put the whole EM drive thing into context:
-http://www.space.com/29363-impossible-em-drive-space-engine-nasa.html
-http://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/2015/05/04/no-nasa-did-not-accidentally-invent-warp-drive/
-http://www.wired.com/2015/05/nasa-warp-drive-yeah-still-poppycock/

 

[Lightknight]

Right, cause NASA is known to lie and scam. [/sarcasm]

I have no idea where that came from. I am not claiming they are lying, I say they are wrong. Also, NASA researchers (which I am still not certain this guys actually are, as I have heard conflicting reports about their affiliations) and engineers were the guys who managed to crash a probe because they forgot to convert their measurements to metric. They are not made of magical error-proof particles; they are humans like you and I and thus just as prone to making mistakes and jumping to conclusions.

That's an issue with how the US doesn't adhere to international standards of measurement. It hardly lying about getting some results when they should get none.

What do credentials have to do with this? I am not doing a peer-review, I am professing skepticism over claims that are defying some pretty elementary laws of physics. As a rule of thumb, the more outlandish the claim, the more solid the evidence has to be to be taken seriously, and a few micro-newtons of thrust that is just barely above the experiment's error-threshold is not exactly solid ground to stand on, especially if their hypothesis goes up against something as vital as the second law of thermodynamics.

They, the cutting edge pioneers of this science, are saying they're getting thrust even in a vacuum after accounting for all possible effects.

They are certainly getting thrust. They've verified it time and time again. So your skepticism is no longer warranted. Now your skepticism is better levied at how it is generating thrust and whether or not it will be viable when scaled up. But that it is happening? Almost certainly.

What's more is that you're wrong, 50 micro newtons aren't their error threshold. It's the Glenn Research Centers' minimum thrust. They want them to get up to 100 micro newtons to ensure testability in their research facility.

Even if you were right and that was their error threshold, them being over that value invalidates your point since there shouldn't be any thrust.

I don't see where was the conspiracy theory there. Again, what I am claiming is that they are either wrong because of device/human error or that the report has been tweaked to create more interest in the research. There have been lots and lots of precedents for both scenario, and when you couple that with all the other red flags the reports raise it is hard to take them seriously.

If you are only talking about the warp side of the equation, then that's not what I'm debating with you over. If you are talking about the EmDrive itself? Yeah, conspiracy theory when multiple nations have verified it while accounting for all possible ramifications.

Also, three continents? All I know about is the Chinese one (which to this day no one managed to verify) and the NASA one, which is a ridiculously small effect size that is just barely over the error threshold.

The EmDrive is a British invention and as such is where the first working prototype was developed and tested. So: North America, Europe, Asia. Three continents.

You do realize that every time you say "over the error threshold" you are saying "confirmed", right?

FYI, the Chinese reported a significant margin over the threshold. Until they release their data we have no idea what they've done differently since they are tight lipped about what they did.

As for the "warp drive" That's only one study that wasn't even done in a vacuum yet. We just know that the EmDrive itself works. That's what was tested in a vacuum. Not the "warp field" test.

But isn't that part what this whole hubbub is about? About how the media just grabbed hold of the whole "Warp Drive" idea and plastered it all over the news without any critical thought given?

The person who made this article was misinformed. I can't blame them since it's hard to find a journalist who also spotlights as a physicist. The vacuum test did not verify the "warp field", it only verified the EmDrive. I assume the relative closeness of the results are what caused the confusion.

So yeah, I stand behind my previous claims. I have seen this pattern when it came to "revolutionary research" too many times, and I predict this is going to end up exactly at the same place: a forgotten corner of the net with a small core of true believers still clinging to it even after everyone else has moved on, same as all the cold fusion/perpetuum mobile/hydrogen-fuel/super-battery/tesla-coil/scalar-weapon/etc. people.

Also, here are a few less gushing and credulous articles to put the whole EM drive thing into context:
-http://www.space.com/29363-impossible-em-drive-space-engine-nasa.html
-http://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/2015/05/04/no-nasa-did-not-accidentally-invent-warp-drive/
-http://www.wired.com/2015/05/nasa-warp-drive-yeah-still-poppycock/

If your only argument is against it being a warp field then yeah, it's too soon to tell. They'd need to re-test and verify the results of that separate test in a vacuum like the one recently performed that verified the overall engine itself. Specifically, they need to have interferometer tests run in a vacuum which Eagleworks acknowledges they can't complete for several months due to budgetary issues.

But the EmDrive itself? Yeah, it's real, it works. The only question is why. Maybe everyone is making the same mistake and this will result in better testing methodologies. That's unlikely but feasible and if so we may learn more about a different technology. But it being test in a vacuum was the last necessary step to prove that. Now we just have to see replication of results and improvements to the technology to see it work (and still to learn the how of it).

Right now, as the technology stands it cuts down the time it would take humans to get from earth to Alpha Centauri from 10,000 years with current tech down to 130 years (if you wanted to stop there, only 97 years without deceleration). That's current tech and the thrust is very minimal.