Was Morrowind really the best?

ExileNZ

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Honestly I never really "got" why people loved Morrowind so much. I finished it in 130 hours and after running around having everyone hail me as the saviour for a while, I stopped.

Compare that to Skyrim, which I pumped ~250 hours into and barely got out of Mournhold. You see a mountain in the distance? Cool, you can run over and climb up it.

Aesthetically Skyrim is far more pleasing, with glittering snowy fields and mountains replacing the endless sandstorm-swept muddy swamps.

Above all tho, magic and HtH, while broken at high levels, were completely useless at lower levels in Morrowind.

Oh, you want to be a magician? Cool - just cast Spark like 500 times until you can actually do it without failing all the time. And oh yeah your mana doesn't come back when you sleep so it's a limited resource. Then you can try some other spell and cast that one 500 times until you un-suck enough not to die every time you use it in combat.

HtH was useless, too. Sure at higher levels you could practically one-shot KO people, but you had to select it like a weapon so it didn't free up your hands for magic (or anything else). Not to mention that at no point in the game is it ever more effective in combat than, say, an axe (stuns half the time even when you suck at it? Sign me up). Or a sword. Or hell even a dagger. In the time it takes to make HtH not suck (and I levelled it to the top), you could level up two or three more useful weapons.

Or maybe cast one spell kinda okay.

TES always had great lore, and Skyrim doesn't really add that much more to the existing corpus (which I quite like, actually, there's something nostalgic about finding a copy of The Argonian Maid in a bandit's hut), but I don't know how much of that existed before Morrowind either - how many of those books were on the shelves in Daggerfall?

I quite liked the slightly complicated relationship with Vivec, that seems more interesting to me than "Oh look, a dragon! Dragons are bad".

But honestly I preferred the tighter and more immersive world of something like Gothic, even if the graphics weren't as pretty. At least you didn't have loading screens every time you entered a house. But that's a whole other kettle of fish, and not one I want to focus on here.
 
Mar 30, 2010
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ExileNZ said:
TES always had great lore, and Skyrim doesn't really add that much more to the existing corpus (which I quite like, actually, there's something nostalgic about finding a copy of The Argonian Maid in a bandit's hut), but I don't know how much of that existed before Morrowind either - how many of those books were on the shelves in Daggerfall?
As memory serves, of the ~300 books in Morrowind only 15 - 20 existed in Daggerfall. The addition made by the Morrowind writers to existing TES lore was huge.
 

Nazulu

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I've played Skyrim first and all I can say is I really hope Morrowind is better because I became bored of Skyrim really quickly. I see a lot of people say that Skyrims combat is better than the rest, but it's not great at all, in any way. In fact, I managed to break the game several times and just found it tedious over and over, including it repeats Everything over and over.

Didn't think much of Oblivion either.
 

ExileNZ

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Grouchy Imp said:
ExileNZ said:
TES always had great lore, and Skyrim doesn't really add that much more to the existing corpus (which I quite like, actually, there's something nostalgic about finding a copy of The Argonian Maid in a bandit's hut), but I don't know how much of that existed before Morrowind either - how many of those books were on the shelves in Daggerfall?
As memory serves, of the ~300 books in Morrowind only 15 - 20 existed in Daggerfall. The addition made by the Morrowind writers to existing TES lore was huge.
Thanks for filling me in :)

I got an e-book compilation a few years back, there were about 600 documents but that included every scrap of paper, including the assassin's note. At any rate, the majority of the TES lore seems to have come from Morrowind then. I remember being wowed at the ability to pick up every book on a shelf.
 

GabeZhul

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regalphantom said:
CloudAtlas said:
AntiChri5 said:
I don't know of any system that is better at keeping enemies relevant while not punishing the player needlessly for exploration.
(Mostly) Horizontal Progression is better with that.

A progression system where you get substantially stronger with each level, but your enemies level with you, is, ultimately, absurd. You level up, you get better stats, but it's just smokes and mirrors - in relative terms your power level always stays the same (give or take). And always comes with a big fat tail of balancing problems.
As a side note, I remember hearing an idea about a sort of 'hybridized global leveling system' which is a cross between the classic "Low-Level, Medium-Level, High-Level" world map, and Oblivion/Skyrim's global leveling. Basically, everything levels with you, but certain regions always have easier enemies than others (So the forest of the giant bunnies always contains enemies which are a nuisance but not irrelevant, and the mountains of the pissed-off demon-skeletons always contains enemies that will crush you into a finely ground powder and sell you at a health-foods store if you arent alert and playing your best). Leveling in this case is non-trivial if done properly because it gives you more tools to overcome your opponents rather than just relying on having a better stat-stick.
I think SkyRe already does this for Skyrim.

As for the OT, I would say Skyrim is my favorite ES game, period. The reason for that is fairly simple: Arena and Daggerfal were before my time, Morrowind was fun but ultimately unsatisfying (mostly because my English was pretty basic when I first played it, so a lot of the lore flew over my head) and I felt it was waaaaaay to clunky even back in the day while Oblivion was just plain ugly and it just never really sucked me in.

Skyrim, on the other hand, hits all of my sweet spots. It's unrestricted, intuitive, fun while also having a veritable ton of lore to back it up and, while certain aspects of it were underwhelming (the main quest felt meh, the civil war was gutted compared how it could have been and they gave the players just enough context to make them feel like what they did mattered but then never delivered on their deeds actually mattering), but at the end of the day I am always ready to jump into Skyrim even today and to try out new and fun mods for it, while Morrowind and Oblivion were nothing but one-playthrough wonders that have been sitting on my shelves untouched for years after the first playthrough.
 

Terminal Blue

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As I always say in these threads, Morrowind is pretty much the definition of a nostalgia game. It's really immersive and interesting and probably has the strongest "exploration" element of any of the Elder Scrolls games which all leaves a very good impression in the memory, until you try to play it again and remember that it also has some of the most non-sensically stupid design decisions in human history.

So, get this.. magicka doesn't regenerate, but magic items regenerate just fine!

So, you want to play a mage character? What's that you want to cast spells! Well, I hope you like sleeping my friend because you'll be roleplaying the most severe narcoleptic in history. Meanwhile, I levelled two whole skills (enchantment and alchemy) and stacked intelligence potions to make a pair of socks which kill everything in the game, but you go right ahead.. have fun being a wizard! I'm off to sell stuff at profit to a talking mudcrab until I can train a non-class skill exactly 10 times! Bye!
 

lord.jeff

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Nazulu said:
I've played Skyrim first and all I can say is I really hope Morrowind is better because I became bored of Skyrim really quickly. I see a lot of people say that Skyrims combat is better than the rest, but it's not great at all, in any way. In fact, I managed to break the game several times and just found it tedious over and over, including it repeats Everything over and over.

Didn't think much of Oblivion either.
The combat is worse in Morrowind and Oblivion but the games are better in other regards. You shouldn't be playing an Elder Scrolls game for the combat you won't enjoy yourself they are more about exploration then anything else. If you can get over the problems they are great games but the issues are always there.
 

Nazulu

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lord.jeff said:
Nazulu said:
I've played Skyrim first and all I can say is I really hope Morrowind is better because I became bored of Skyrim really quickly. I see a lot of people say that Skyrims combat is better than the rest, but it's not great at all, in any way. In fact, I managed to break the game several times and just found it tedious over and over, including it repeats Everything over and over.

Didn't think much of Oblivion either.
The combat is worse in Morrowind and Oblivion but the games are better in other regards. You shouldn't be playing an Elder Scrolls game for the combat you won't enjoy yourself they are more about exploration then anything else. If you can get over the problems they are great games but the issues are always there.
I said I played Oblivion. And the reason I brought up the combat is because a lot of people prefer Skyrim for it's improvements.

But thank you any way. From what I've heard about Morrowind, it seems to be more detailed in smaller segments. I will eventually play it because I've been surprised many times from classic games, some showing special quality's I just don't see these days.
 
Mar 30, 2010
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ExileNZ said:
Grouchy Imp said:
ExileNZ said:
TES always had great lore, and Skyrim doesn't really add that much more to the existing corpus (which I quite like, actually, there's something nostalgic about finding a copy of The Argonian Maid in a bandit's hut), but I don't know how much of that existed before Morrowind either - how many of those books were on the shelves in Daggerfall?
As memory serves, of the ~300 books in Morrowind only 15 - 20 existed in Daggerfall. The addition made by the Morrowind writers to existing TES lore was huge.
Thanks for filling me in :)

I got an e-book compilation a few years back, there were about 600 documents but that included every scrap of paper, including the assassin's note. At any rate, the majority of the TES lore seems to have come from Morrowind then. I remember being wowed at the ability to pick up every book on a shelf.
No problem. I was a bit of a book-hound when I first picked up Morrowind myself, sometimes spending hours of gameplay just reading in bookshops looking for the odd book that would hint towards local treasures (eg: the Heran Ancestral Tomb mentioned in Chance's Folly or the tomb mentioned in Hanin's Wake).
 

ExileNZ

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Grouchy Imp said:
No problem. I was a bit of a book-hound when I first picked up Morrowind myself, sometimes spending hours of gameplay just reading in bookshops looking for the odd book that would hint towards local treasures (eg: the Heran Ancestral Tomb mentioned in Chance's Folly or the tomb mentioned in Hanin's Wake).
Back then I used to have a job that required a lot of sitting and waiting in between insane bursts of activity, so I nabbed myself all the Morrowind books and just read them at my desk. Good times...
 

The Goat Tsar

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WhiteTigerShiro said:
My favorite thing about Morrowind was the lack of fast travel. Some people criticize it as being needless padding to draw-out the game time, but to me it just added to the atmosphere of the game. At no point could I rest comfortable in the knowledge that I can just open-up a map menu to travel to a city where I can rest. Nay, I had to walk. At best I could take the striders (or whatever they were called), but even then I had to walk TO the attendant; and not every city was located on a route. Some people call it tedious, I call it engaging. Getting into town after exploring a dungeon has whole new meaning when you know that it isn't just a menu away upon hitting the over-world.
I feel that the fact that you can fast travel in Skyrim is not a valid complaint against the game. I recently started another playthrough of Skyrim where I can't use potions in combat, have to feed my character, sleep regularly, and walk everywhere I want to go (meaning no fast travel). The exception is I can use the carriages and boats outside major cities, which I think is similar to the silt striders in Morrowind. I have downloaded mods, but none of them enforce these conditions I've set for myself.

This is why I think having fast travel is good in Skyrim, it's entirely optional. On some characters, I will fast travel where I need to go. But on others, like my most recent one, I find it much more fun to walk. And the game doesn't force you into one way of playing or the other. You can play the same way you do in Morrowind. Well, mostly. I do wish you didn't have to rely on quest markers to find out where you need to go.
 

Elberik

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The Goat Tsar said:
Well, mostly. I do wish you didn't have to rely on quest markers to find out where you need to go.
You can disable the quest markers in your journal (options menu).
 

The Goat Tsar

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Elberik said:
The Goat Tsar said:
Well, mostly. I do wish you didn't have to rely on quest markers to find out where you need to go.
You can disable the quest markers in your journal (options menu).
Yeah, but for a lot of quests, they don't give you directions for where to go, so if you turn them off you may not have any idea where to go. I would've preferred a quest log with directions as well as the optional quest markers.
 

Mikkaddo

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Elberik said:
Full disclosure, I have never played Morrowind. I have watched many lets-plays & read deep into the lore through wikis but I have never personally played the game.

Now assuming you still give a crap about my opinion:

Since the release of Skyrim many years ago, I have heard people say that they prefer Morrowind and that it was the best the series ever got. However, I notice that everyone who makes this claim 1)played Morrowind when they were younger and 2)heavily modded it or have since used mods during replays. I've never met someone who played Skyrim first, then played Morrowind (vanilla) for the first time and concluded that Morrowind was better.

I'm not saying that Morrowind wasn't a good game; just was there's a giant, pulsating asterisk next to it.

As shallow as this is GUARANTEED to sound, by today's standards Morrowind is complete and utter crap, the graphics are ugly as sin, the random dice roll hit system is a failure until your skill level is beyond amazing and the game lets you EASILY lock yourself out of entire quest lines by not forcing you to let important NPCs live, seriously if you do things the wrong way you can't even complete the main story.

However, that aside . . . the freedom it offered players is nothing less than mouth shuttingly astounding. It had a PSYCHOTIC level of depth to it's world and it's lore, as well as it's NPCs (despite the lack of voiced dialogue) and if you could get around the questlines talking in circles and being vague at best about objectives it's story started to show signs of true genius. There was honestly so much depth to the world that it's hard to define it to you without saying to just read the entire wiki. Cross family politics, Necromancers in the mages guild, questionable nobles that might be Daedra worshipers or even a Daedra themselves, the Imperial cult, the . . . . well everything! Not to mention the harshness of magic. I know the way the system worked punished players that wanted to use magic, but going into it how the game seems to want you to (all melee and arrows all the time) it gave you a decent idea of what it was like to be a "normal" adventurer in that world (something the games are quick to tell you is a common trade, Fighter's guild anyone?) you can kill some monsters here and there but Mages will DE-FUCKING-STROY you. It gives you the feeling that even if you're the "chosen one" you still have to earn your prophetic station, and they tell you as well (if you look in the lore) that other "chosen ones" have come and gone, sometimes false ones (Mythic Dawn anyone?).
 

ajr209

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For me the quality of Morrowind and how it stacks up against the other TES games is a bit difficult to pin down since what it does well it excels at but what it does poorly is so awful I'm reluctant to recommend it to anyone other than someone who is already a fan of the series and wants to get a feel for how the series has evolved over the years.

On the one hand it adds an insane amount of lore, has a massive map, large towns each have a fairly distinct look, has a very good variety of weapons and armor, more characters that seem a bit nutty even if they aren't deadra worshipers, Some of the more otherworldly looking non-plane-of-oblivion environments in the series, Spell making while not always practical can be fun to play around with, and decisions have long lasting consequences far more so than Oblivion and Skyrim.

On the other hand chances of hitting enemies are slim to none if you don't level up that weapon skill which levels through successfully hitting enemies, spell failure still uses MP IIRC and MP doesn't regen without potions praying or resting which makes it a potential death sentence for a mage, and fast traveling is a freakin' nightmare (lets see... I'll take the stilt strider there, then use mages guild transportation, then I'll take a boat... screw it, it might be faster to walk) which wouldn't be an issue if the player character didn't move like it was smuggling fifty pounds of concrete up it's rear.

I will say this though, It brought a lot of things to the series that made TES series a lot richer and colorful than it would be otherwise so I enjoy and respect it based on that alone.
 

Funyahns

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Morrowind was my favorite by quite a bit. The engine has aged a lot though. I would love to have Skyrims weapon/shield skills mixed in with the systems from Morrowind. I loved making my own spells, enchanting my own gear. Carry a ring to summon a bow and one for a sword in case gear breaks. Constant effect regen for stamina so you can run non stop. I wish they would get back to that a bit more
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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The Goat Tsar said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
My favorite thing about Morrowind was the lack of fast travel. Some people criticize it as being needless padding to draw-out the game time, but to me it just added to the atmosphere of the game. At no point could I rest comfortable in the knowledge that I can just open-up a map menu to travel to a city where I can rest. Nay, I had to walk. At best I could take the striders (or whatever they were called), but even then I had to walk TO the attendant; and not every city was located on a route. Some people call it tedious, I call it engaging. Getting into town after exploring a dungeon has whole new meaning when you know that it isn't just a menu away upon hitting the over-world.
I feel that the fact that you can fast travel in Skyrim is not a valid complaint against the game. I recently started another playthrough of Skyrim where I can't use potions in combat, have to feed my character, sleep regularly, and walk everywhere I want to go (meaning no fast travel). The exception is I can use the carriages and boats outside major cities, which I think is similar to the silt striders in Morrowind. I have downloaded mods, but none of them enforce these conditions I've set for myself.

This is why I think having fast travel is good in Skyrim, it's entirely optional. On some characters, I will fast travel where I need to go. But on others, like my most recent one, I find it much more fun to walk. And the game doesn't force you into one way of playing or the other. You can play the same way you do in Morrowind. Well, mostly. I do wish you didn't have to rely on quest markers to find out where you need to go.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying that fast travel is bad. In fact, my favorite game in the series is one in which fast travel is basically required. I was just saying that it affords a certain level of comfort, and the lack of said comfort is part of what I like about Morrowind.
 

BoogieManFL

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Elberik said:
Full disclosure, I have never played Morrowind. I have watched many lets-plays & read deep into the lore through wikis but I have never personally played the game.

Now assuming you still give a crap about my opinion:

Since the release of Skyrim many years ago, I have heard people say that they prefer Morrowind and that it was the best the series ever got. However, I notice that everyone who makes this claim 1)played Morrowind when they were younger and 2)heavily modded it or have since used mods during replays. I've never met someone who played Skyrim first, then played Morrowind (vanilla) for the first time and concluded that Morrowind was better.

I'm not saying that Morrowind wasn't a good game; just was there's a giant, pulsating asterisk next to it.
Skyrim is better than Morrowind in some ways. And probably Oblivion too. But Oblivion did do some things better than Skyrim. I think nostalgia helps people like Morrowind better. Of all of the Elder Scroll games, I remember (for the times) being most impressed with it because it was a game that stood out visually and was some sweet eye candy back then, as was the big open 3D world.

The biggest disappoint for me in Skyrim is how they neutered Mages. You used to be able to make your own spells and that was awesome and fun to experiment with.

Daggerfall hasn't aged well, but the world is freaking huge and the sheer number of locations is crazy. All the random dungeons scattered about was pretty cool. And my dude once got turned into a Wereboar, that was different. And a Vampire dude I encountered was a real badass, not some random speedbump to be casually rolled over like they have been since.

I've played them all, and each has their charms and things that made them better than the others. Judging them as if they were new.. I'd still say overall Skyrim is the best, but not dominantly so. And to be honest, while all fine games to be sure, they wouldn't rate nearly as high on my most liked games if it weren't for the mods.
 

DoPo

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Elberik said:
The Goat Tsar said:
Well, mostly. I do wish you didn't have to rely on quest markers to find out where you need to go.
You can disable the quest markers in your journal (options menu).
Well, you can also only play the game using a mouse on a PC. It's not particularly good but it's possible. What's your point?

I'm going to re-post this again in this thread

lax4life said:
If you do remove the quest markers in Skyrim, you do actually get an entry in your quest log. Unfortunately, most of the times they'd amount to "I must bring the documents to Caius Cossades". Where he is or how to even find him would be a mystery for the ages. Sure, that tracking spell can work (assuming for a moment, it's not the giant glowing arrow that it is) but you would still have no idea where he is - if the spell points you to the left - is he in this town, or not? If not in this one - which one, for the spell would not make it even remotely apparent, inless it tells you to go east outside of this settlement, and there is only one settlement in that direction. If you knew where on the map your objective is, it would make it massively easier to plan your route. And it would mean, you only need to use the spell when you get to the settlement. However, that's often not the case. Moreover, you often get objectives that are leading you to some caves/forts/stuff somewhere on the map. Even if they give you the name of the place, it's not easy to find, if possible at all. The NPCs give, like, fuck all amount of help too - you can't ask them where something is.

So yes, you could disable the markers, that doesn't mean you don't have to rely on them, though.