Was Planetary Anihilators the final nail in the coffin for Early Access ?

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Ender910 said:
It really does depend on the game and the development team, honestly. Grim Dawn for example (spiritual successor to Titan Quest) is really quite good, although not yet complete. Their release model was pretty solid though: Focus on the core mechanics and gameplay first and foremost, and gradually complete the campaign in large portions. So far this has work splendidly. The game's exceedingly fun, although a little short currently (although admittedly progress has been lagging a little).

A lot of the successful Kickstarter projects were started by developers who had created a name in the industry, with a reputation for brilliant ideas. The problem we're seeing is that it's being done far far too often now, and mostly by indie developers with little to no experience in professional development, or projects that were poorly managed from the get-go.

I'm sure once the hype finally dies down crowd-sourced projects will continue to be a perfectly viable alternative, so long as the developers know what they're doing and enthusiastic gamers continue to support good creative work.
Grim Dawn is one of the better examples out there, it gave its Kickstarter Alpha/Beta backers months of exclusivity and when it went on Early Access it gave those who paid for just the game alone Early Access keys as well.

Zontar said:
Did you mean Planetary Annihilation OP?

If so are you are essentially complaining that Uber and inXile didn't screw over the fans who got their respective projects off the ground by selling lower priced Early Access (which was at the exact same price as as Kickstarter in their own stores as well) just because some other less scrupulous Devs are using it as an excuse to jack up prices?
 

bluepotatosack

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MinionJoe said:
Stormcloud23 said:
If Uber had gone and placed that early access on steam for $20 just a month or two after I got access, do you think that would have been fair?
I saw that word bandied about for months after posting their backwards price scaling on Steam. Question is: Why should it be fair? Uber already got your $120. If they then sold access a month later at $20, they'd only have to sign up 6 more people to match what you paid. And it's a lot easier to sell 6 at $20 than 1 at $120.

Instead, the calls for fairness only served to hamper the developer's sales in order to placate those who bought into the Kickstarter.

But just like Oculus VR, Uber was under no obligation to treat you "fairly".
It should be fair because it would be incredibly damaging to the reputation of the company if it wasn't. They have all the funding they need at this point to finish the game, so why should they screw over their biggest supporters for a few extra bucks?

As for Oculus, they did treat the kickstarter backers fairly AFAIC.
 

lacktheknack

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MinionJoe said:
lacktheknack said:
I've never understood why gamers are often so eager to see options be removed.
It's like Porsche and Lamborghini taking production models, stripping off most of the parts, and charging twice as much. Because less features and a higher price tag greatly increases performance. :)

Addendum: I used to work in a casino. In my state, they have a guaranteed return of 90% over a day's activity. If you give me $10, I'll give you $9 back (unless the grandmother on the nickel slots happens to hit the jackpot). So casinos are at least a semi-predictable bite in the ass.
No, it's like Lamborghini doing it alone. If that happens and you don't like the risk of buying it, you buy a Porsche instead. If every a sizable chunk of games were only purchasable in Early Access and not after release, then I'd see the issue, but that's not the case, never will be the case, and is not the issue.

And yeah, Casinos are semi-predictable, but that's not even relevant. If we're talking incomparable upsides, the upside to early-access is that you can not participate and still end up buying the full game at the end of it all. No one's forcing you to buy anything, just allowing you to do so if you want.

Let's see a casino let you come in and buy a $15 payout for ten bucks after the gamble is done by someone else with no risk on your part.
 

Zontar

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Ed130 The Vanguard said:
Zontar said:
Did you mean Planetary Annihilation OP?

If so are you are essentially complaining that Uber and inXile didn't screw over the fans who got their respective projects off the ground by selling lower priced Early Access (which was at the exact same price as as Kickstarter in their own stores as well) just because some other less scrupulous Devs are using it as an excuse to jack up prices?
2 problems, first is the false equivalence between Steam and Kickstarter. Kickstarter is a crowd funding site for getting project off the ground which may or (in 95% of cases) may not ever get produced. Steam is a store, where you are either buying a product, or selling one.

Second is the fact that they started this practice and the only reason less scrupulous devs (though I'd gladly call Uber unscrupulous give how they handled MNC and SMNC) is because it worked despite all economic logic showing it should have failed.
 

loa

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Well I don't see the harm in it.
If you don't like it, just don't buy it is, unlike for microtransactions that incentivize making the game a chore in order to "add value" to them by their very nature, true in this case since it should have no effect on the finished game other than delaying it and delaying it some more to keep it in this state but there surely can't be enough demand for early access for this to be viable now, can there?
 

raeior

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Zontar said:
I keep seeing people throwing around "investment" and "crowd funding", but the problem with that is, Early Access is not an investment any more then me buying groceries is. You are buying a product and that is all (and given that it's a game on Steam, technically it isn't even buying it outside of the EU).

Investment implies a return or possibility of return, which is a criteria Early Access does not meet without stretching the definition to encompass all purchases.
The return is a game that you want to have and that would otherwise not exist and whose further developement you can influence (ideally). It's obviously no financial gain as the term investment would suggest. I honestly don't see why early access titles would not fall into this category. Those are games (sometimes more concepts of a potential game) that are in developement and where you essentially buy the promise of a potentially great game. This is not that different from a Kickstarter that already provides a demo version and continous updates on this demo.

Zontar said:
And crowd funding has no place on Steam. Steam is a retail outlet that has a forum and in-game item market attached to it. That isn't a place for showing unproven concepts that have no guarantee of working or ever bearing fruition. There's a place for that already, and it's called Kickstarter.
Obviously Steam doesn't agree. It is clear that they started early access as a reaction to the Kickstarter hype. I can't really understand why you would decide what Steam is and what it is not. Kickstarter also isn't the answer to everything. It is only available for projects based in the US or the UK (afaik, I think they wanted to change something about this?) and is also only available for people who have a credit card which can be a problem for quite a lot of people. I understand why they only support credit cards but it still keeps me from using Kickstarter because I don't have one and I don't intend to get one in the near future so Steam early access for a project like War for the Overworld was really useful for me as I then can simply choose one of several available paying methods.

The thing is, I can somewhat understand from where you are coming. This is also what I meant in my earlier post by saying Steam has to make it very clear that you are buying an early access product which would include stuff like not listing early access stuff on the front page among the "normal" new releases. But i clearly don't agree that Steam should not sell early access games.

Also something I just remembered. Buying a preorder in a retail shop isn't all that different. You might get a good game out of it or you might end up with X Rebirth or Alien Colonial Marines and no one will give you your money back because the game you preordered never delivered on what it promised. The difference is that you have some influence in an early access title and you get to play right now (the part that is finished obviously).
 

bluepotatosack

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Zontar said:
2 problems, first is the false equivalence between Steam and Kickstarter. Kickstarter is a crowd funding site for getting project off the ground which may or (in 95% of cases) may not ever get produced. Steam is a store, where you are either buying a product, or selling one.

Second is the fact that they started this practice and the only reason less scrupulous devs (though I'd gladly call Uber unscrupulous give how they handled MNC and SMNC) is because it worked despite all economic logic showing it should have failed.
I think I missed that controversy. How did they screw up MNC/SMNC? Genuinely curious.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Zontar said:
Ed130 The Vanguard said:
Zontar said:
Did you mean Planetary Annihilation OP?

If so are you are essentially complaining that Uber and inXile didn't screw over the fans who got their respective projects off the ground by selling lower priced Early Access (which was at the exact same price as as Kickstarter in their own stores as well) just because some other less scrupulous Devs are using it as an excuse to jack up prices?
2 problems, first is the false equivalence between Steam and Kickstarter. Kickstarter is a crowd funding site for getting project off the ground which may or (in 95% of cases) may not ever get produced. Steam is a store, where you are either buying a product, or selling one.

Second is the fact that they started this practice and the only reason less scrupulous devs (though I'd gladly call Uber unscrupulous give how they handled MNC and SMNC) is because it worked despite all economic logic showing it should have failed.
False Equivalence doesn't enter into it, the Devs just didn't want to piss off those that already paid $50+ in the Kickstarter.

Again I'm asking if you think its someones fault for producing an expansive product (which they had a reason to no matter how you try to discount it) which others who don't have that excuse are attempting to replicate?
 

josemlopes

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I bought very few early access games but none of them was under the notion that what I wanted would eventually come to the game. All of them were already fully functional and already had everything I wanted, they were basicly Early Access because they would still be getting more content but other then that it was already a full game.
 

Zontar

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bluepotatosack said:
I think I missed that controversy. How did they screw up MNC/SMNC? Genuinely curious.
It's a combination of missmanagment that would typically make heads roll, no real content updates on games which depend on them, and trying to use player CPUs to mine bitcoins while they play.
Ed130 The Vanguard said:
False Equivalence doesn't enter into it, the Devs just didn't want to piss off those that already paid $50+ in the Kickstarter.

Again I'm asking if you think its someones fault for producing an expansive product (which they had a reason to no matter how you try to discount it) which others who don't have that excuse are attempting to replicate?
If those on Kickstarter got pissed off, then that's because they fail to understand Kickstarter is to get it alive, not for you to buy it early. The devs are under no obligation to give you a copy of the game for supporting them on it, they just tend to do so out of habit. Steam is a store.

And you bring the price into this (despite the fact that a copy of the product costs them fractions of a penny, and they had over 2 million dollars more then they needed to get the game up and running), when selling the game at a reasonable price would actually sell more copies and make them more money. Someone else posted this already, but it's a lot easier to get 6 people to pay 20$ then 1 person to pay 120$. It's the Warhammer dilemma.
 

Madman123456

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I wont buy products from a source that is highly likely to attempt a scam. Go figure on how much of the videogame industry that can be applied to.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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I don't know. But those people who bought into the idea of early access are quite naive. They don't seem to realize that if early access game is selling well and for more than the finished product would cost, developers have an incentive to keep it in the early access for as long as they're generating profit.
 

Zontar

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Adam Jensen said:
I don't know. But those people who bought into the idea of early access are quite naive. They don't seem to realize that if early access game is selling well and for more than the finished product would cost, developers have an incentive to keep it in the early access for as long as they're generating profit.
That's actually exactly what PA is in. It's pretty much finished, but it's in "Gamma" stage to keep the price 10$ more then retail.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Zontar said:
If those on Kickstarter got pissed off, then that's because they fail to understand Kickstarter is to get it alive, not for you to buy it early. The devs are under no obligation to give you a copy of the game for supporting them on it, they just tend to do so out of habit. Steam is a store.

And you bring the price into this (despite the fact that a copy of the product costs them fractions of a penny, and they had over 2 million dollars more then they needed to get the game up and running), when selling the game at a reasonable price would actually sell more copies and make them more money. Someone else posted this already, but it's a lot easier to get 6 people to pay 20$ then 1 person to pay 120$. It's the Warhammer dilemma.
And when those Kickstarter Backers kick up a ruckus, swear off buying anything ever again and any future attempts at Kickstarter fail due to people waiting for Early Access meaning the game never gets enough money for the Alpha what happens then?

Yes, it is good business sense to sell more copies by lowering the price, however doing so at the expanse of goodwill from your most devoted customers who (as Torment: Tides of Numenera showed) are willing to put in large sums of money towards whatever you do isn't smart.

We aren't talking about EA here, able to take massive hits by simply casting its net as wide as possible, we are talking about niche titles that don't have massive numbers of potential customers waiting.
 

Vivi22

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Not sure where people get this assumption that early access is illogical, or shouldn't succeed, or is a scam. If people want to pay money for a game and get access to it earlier than release in it's unfinished form so they can see what it's like, provide feedback, etc. then why is that a bad thing? That's really no different than getting into an early beta because you pre-ordered a game. And it's a hell of a lot less insane than pre-ordering games months in advance, getting nothing until release, and trusting it might be good when the time comes.

People who are interested in a game get to help fund it's development, and play it before final release, and the people developing the game get much needed funds to devote to full time development. I'm not seeing the issue. Even with your argument that charging more upfront is bad, and I would agree it's sketchy, at least Wasteland 2 is giving exclusive content to people who buy early access that won't be available to anyone buying it later. Do you complain that people who buy special edition versions of games are suckers? From the looks of it, even Galactic Civilization 3 has some minor extras for getting in early as well.

I'm not sure why you included DayZ in all of that though since their price is low for early access and will be going UP to full price as release gets closer, so using them as an example of what you view to be a problem is just plain incorrect.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Zontar said:
Adam Jensen said:
I don't know. But those people who bought into the idea of early access are quite naive. They don't seem to realize that if early access game is selling well and for more than the finished product would cost, developers have an incentive to keep it in the early access for as long as they're generating profit.
That's actually exactly what PA is in. It's pretty much finished, but it's in "Gamma" stage to keep the price 10$ more then retail.
I didn't realize missing Galactic Conquest, 40 person multiplayer and most orbital assets meant the game is complete.

Thank you for informing me of this.
 

Smooth Operator

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Early Access exists if you call it that or not, there are plenty of unfinished games released every day so that designation at least bears some honesty on the matter.

And the only coffin PA is nailing shut is their own, they simply outed themselves as manipulative bastards and many others seem to think this is really good for business, sure in the short run, but you can bet your ass this shit will not be forgotten and every time your name comes up people will be warned of your conduct.
Don't think people won't fuck you just because they are indie, they can smell the money same as everyone else and they will try to raid your wallet if not smacked on the nose every so often.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Mr.K. said:
Early Access exists if you call it that or not, there are plenty of unfinished games released every day so that designation at least bears some honesty on the matter.

And the only coffin PA is nailing shut is their own, they simply outed themselves as manipulative bastards and many others seem to think this is really good for business, sure in the short run, but you can bet your ass this shit will not be forgotten and every time your name comes up people will be warned of your conduct.
Don't think people won't fuck you just because they are indie, they can smell the money same as everyone else and they will try to raid your wallet if not smacked on the nose every so often.
Or they wanted to match prices with the Kickstarter tiers like what Wasteland 2 is while providing the same benefits?
 

Zontar

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Vivi22 said:
I'm not sure why you included DayZ in all of that though since their price is low for early access and will be going UP to full price as release gets closer, so using them as an example of what you view to be a problem is just plain incorrect.
Actually that reality only makes the matter worst given the fact that DayZ, when the standalone was announced, claimed that at retail it would be 10-15$. The fact that it was 30$ at Alpha and will be going up in price is the reason I have included it on my list.
 

Zontar

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Ed130 The Vanguard said:
We aren't talking about EA here, able to take massive hits by simply casting its net as wide as possible, we are talking about niche titles that don't have massive numbers of potential customers waiting.
PA and Wasteland 2 both got far beyond their stated required funds on Kickstarter (and given how experienced the devs where, those estimates where probably close to the mark). A comparison to EA is almost appropriate in this situation, and given Uber's track record it actually is because it is proportionally much worst.
Ed130 The Vanguard said:
I didn't realize missing Galactic Conquest, 40 person multiplayer and most orbital assets meant the game is complete.

Thank you for informing me of this.
Well, I'm not claiming that isn't the case, only that it is what Uber has claimed on their own site.