Was Planetary Anihilators the final nail in the coffin for Early Access ?

Amir Kondori

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Zontar said:
Amir Kondori said:
Minecraft took years to hit a full, non-beta release.
Minecraft is one of the only (not few, only, there are 4 examples of it at best) examples of Early Access done right, and for a reason almost no genre of game can pull off. It was finished from the start. Despite all the numbers for build and tags like "Alpha" and "Beta", the game was released done. They could have stopped adding content at any moment, and with how much there was coupled with how much you paid, there was never going to be complaints about it had development just stopped.

The only other example I can think of which pulled this off was KSP.

This is the way Early Access can work that doesn't screw over the customer if the company fails (and if it's a company releasing on Early Access, that's a very real possibility).

A simple litmus test for if an Early Access game is worth even being on the market is this: if the game was released in its current state for its current price, would you still buy it?

If the answer is no, then it fails like almost all the other games on EA which mostly glorified spam on the frontpage.
There are plenty of games that are being sold as Early Access that could be considered full, playable games. Minecraft was in a very basic state when it was first available compared to the feature set it has now.

In any case there is a very simple solution if you don't like Early Access games which doesn't impede others who like being a part of the early development of games. Do not buy any Early Access games. Don't buy Rust, don't buy Day Z, don't buy Kerbal Space Program, don't buy Starbound, don't play Hawken (what do you feel about free to play games that are Early Access?).

Early Access games are very well labelled. They have a big blue label, they spell out they are not complete products and are still in development, no one is getting fooled here. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Because that is the only solution I think you are going to have, Early Access has just kind of exploded, go take a look at their Early Access section, it is filled with games, many of them look like they could be some really neat games. Personally, when I buy an Early Access game, I know I am taking a small risk that the game may either not get finished or may end up not how I hoped it would. That is why I rarely buy Early Access titles. Still I am glad the program exists, because it is allowing money to come in and help fund the completion of indie projects that otherwise might not have been as polished.
 

generals3

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Zontar said:
When Planetary Annihilators came out on Early Access, it damaged the system. There was, in a retail outlet, an unfinished product being sold for over double the price of the finished one months before the (4 months delayed and counting) release. Now if it had been the end of it, then nothing would have been a problem. Any system can take the strain of a loose cog.

But it didn't stop there. Where conventional wisdom about economics shows it should have been a failure which should have crashed and burned, despite all the logic behind it the fact that humans are irrational reared its ugly head and the game sold enough for Uber to not go out of business despite their inability to manage their money properly.

And like any price gouging which works, others emulated it. Wasteland 2, DayZ, Galactic Civilization III and a few smaller ones no one actually cares about, the practice is spreading.

And people are supporting it.

What happened to us? There was an outcry when PC games went from a standardized 50$ price tag to a 60$ one because of Call of Duty. It didn't stop us from buying the same games for more money, but there was at least some backlash. Now? Corporate apologists are saying "it's Early Access, it's a privilege to play it" or "they are just being fair to those who supported the kickstarter" as if those people would actually be upset by the game being made.

The practice is alive now, canonized as a standard practice. Will it stick? Will we see it die like it should? Or will we have to wait for when Early Access is shut down next year?
What's actually funny is that customers are being screwed up pretty bad. Common business practice is to charge people who buy early less because their investment is certain (it gives a certain certainty to the seller regarding its sales and also gives them early inbound cash flows). And since early access pretty much means "beta testing" the game these early access people are actually the "labrats" of the game who test it before it can be sold to the large audience.

I guess the main issue here is the lack of business insight among consumers. They don't realize buying things early and testing the game before its actual release is doing the company a favor and that they can, consequently, ask for a price reduction (not increase!).
 

generals3

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
In the beginning all the crowdfunding options sounded so swell. Nowadays i couldn't care less about them. Dabbled in diffrent genres and sizes of games had got some burns and some profit out of it.
You're confusing crowdfunding with kickstarters. In a crowdfunding scheme the crowd is an actual investor while with kickstarter pledgers are donating money and have 0 share in the capital.

Basically a kickstarter is a really absurd version of the crowdfunding scheme. It's the same with the only difference that you don't actually get any potential capital gains. It's the perfect scheme for entrepreneurs and the stupidest for people who want to support projects and get something out of it.

That's why i personally will never donate to a kickstarter. If I want to donate money i will do so to an actual good cause. And if I want to put my money into projects i'll just buy shares like any real investor.
 

Zontar

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Amir Kondori said:
Well this argument will only go in circles from here, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Though it would be nice if all Early Access games had a clear marking on the front page and could be filtered out.

Anyway, for Hakken, I was very angry when they released on steam with their Early Access package. It's an online only game, so by its very nature they could argue to keep it on Early Access in perpetuity since the game type it is never has an end product (unless you count the servers being shut down once and for all).
 

Amir Kondori

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Zontar said:
Amir Kondori said:
Well this argument will only go in circles from here, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Though it would be nice if all Early Access games had a clear marking on the front page and could be filtered out.

Anyway, for Hakken, I was very angry when they released on steam with their Early Access package. It's an online only game, so by its very nature they could argue to keep it on Early Access in perpetuity since the game type it is never has an end product (unless you count the servers being shut down once and for all).
I thought we were having a discussion, not an argument. None of us have stooped to insults or ad hominem, which is unfortunately too common online.

I will agree that it would be nice if people could filter it out, I wish Steam overall had more options to sort by different categories, like publishers, developer, etc. I do think Early Access games are well enough tagged now, would you agree with that, even if you disagree with the practice?
 

Zontar

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Amir Kondori said:
I do think Early Access games are well enough tagged now, would you agree with that, even if you disagree with the practice?
I suppose I do. I may be upset when I see an interesting game on the front page has the blue box, but at least I'm not likely to buy one by accident.
 

Amir Kondori

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Zontar said:
Amir Kondori said:
I do think Early Access games are well enough tagged now, would you agree with that, even if you disagree with the practice?
I suppose I do. I may be upset when I see an interesting game on the front page has the blue box, but at least I'm not likely to buy one by accident.
Personally I am glad to see Steam try stuff like this, even if it doesn't work out. There are so many indie games now and funding can be a big problem for them, forcing them to crowd source, find angel investors, or give up control of their game to a traditional publisher.

Things like Early Access and Greenlight, which are not perfect programs certainly, at least shows that Valve is interested in trying to find solutions to the problems of indie games getting enough funding and getting visibility and placement on the Steam store.

Perhaps there could be some changes to the Early Access program that would make you feel a little more comfortable with it. Maybe if they had to give a release date for the final product, so you didn't buy it without knowing when and if it would ever see a final release. Maybe there could be a minimum amount of feature set and playability to be sold through Early Access.

Do you have any ideas on how it could be changed without getting rid of it entirely that would make you feel better about it?
 

DoPo

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Amir Kondori said:
I wish Steam overall had more options to sort by different categories, like publishers, developer, etc.
I am starting to wonder if Steam's search function is some sort of secret I've unlocked.
http://store.steampowered.com/search/
Click "advanced". You can filter by EXACTLY both (or either) publisher and developer. You can also filter by price, language, Metascore, as well as genre and category (but I find those two lacking in specificity). In the basic search, you can also filter by type and OS, alongside the name. I am baffled by how many people criticise Steam for a functionality that is actually there. Sure it can be better but I keep seeing people complain that, say, you can't filter out DLC when this is not something that's missing. It has not been something that's missing for few years now.

Amir Kondori said:
I do think Early Access games are well enough tagged now, would you agree with that, even if you disagree with the practice?
There is a GIANT blue box in the main description of the game. Even assuming somebody doesn't even read the description before they choose to buy a game (in which case I'd actually question if they have the right to complain about labeling) they would literally have to scroll past it to click "Purchase". I'd say it's sufficient and complaints about the opposite are not well grounded.
 

Amir Kondori

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DoPo said:
Amir Kondori said:
I wish Steam overall had more options to sort by different categories, like publishers, developer, etc.
I am starting to wonder if Steam's search function is some sort of secret I've unlocked.
http://store.steampowered.com/search/
Click "advanced". You can filter by EXACTLY both (or either) publisher and developer. You can also filter by price, language, Metascore, as well as genre and category (but I find those two lacking in specificity). In the basic search, you can also filter by type and OS, alongside the name. I am baffled by how many people criticise Steam for a functionality that is actually there. Sure it can be better but I keep seeing people complain that, say, you can't filter out DLC when this is not something that's missing. It has not been something that's missing for few years now.

Amir Kondori said:
I do think Early Access games are well enough tagged now, would you agree with that, even if you disagree with the practice?
There is a GIANT blue box in the main description of the game. Even assuming somebody doesn't even read the description before they choose to buy a game (in which case I'd actually question if they have the right to complain about labeling) they would literally have to scroll past it to click "Purchase". I'd say it's sufficient and complaints about the opposite are not well grounded.
Does that "Advanced" link show up in the actual Steam client? I looked for such search settings a few months ago, during the holiday sale, and did not see them. I guess if that does exist in the client I missed it, but those advanced search options are just the kind of thing I wanted. Of course if a lot of people are missing the advanced options perhaps they should make that more visible.

I do agree with you that the Early Access games are well enough tagged right now, but I was asking someone who did not like the program what changes would make the Early Access program more palatable to them.
 

Zontar

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Amir Kondori said:
Do you have any ideas on how it could be changed without getting rid of it entirely that would make you feel better about it?
I guess a release date or estimate for one would help. Maybe even a progress bar that shows how far it is to completion. Apart from that and better quality control I'd say there isn't much that can be improved that hasn't already been said.
 

ThatQuietGuy

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Most of those high priced early access games are just having the high price as a pay wall, for whatever reason they only want die hard fans in the alpha/beta, I don't see a problem with that, early access isn't meant to be for everyone.
 

Windcaler

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Zontar said:
When Planetary Annihilators came out on Early Access, it damaged the system. There was, in a retail outlet, an unfinished product being sold for over double the price of the finished one months before the (4 months delayed and counting) release. Now if it had been the end of it, then nothing would have been a problem. Any system can take the strain of a loose cog.

But it didn't stop there. Where conventional wisdom about economics shows it should have been a failure which should have crashed and burned, despite all the logic behind it the fact that humans are irrational reared its ugly head and the game sold enough for Uber to not go out of business despite their inability to manage their money properly.

And like any price gouging which works, others emulated it. Wasteland 2, DayZ, Galactic Civilization III and a few smaller ones no one actually cares about, the practice is spreading.

And people are supporting it.

What happened to us? There was an outcry when PC games went from a standardized 50$ price tag to a 60$ one because of Call of Duty. It didn't stop us from buying the same games for more money, but there was at least some backlash. Now? Corporate apologists are saying "it's Early Access, it's a privilege to play it" or "they are just being fair to those who supported the kickstarter" as if those people would actually be upset by the game being made.

The practice is alive now, canonized as a standard practice. Will it stick? Will we see it die like it should? Or will we have to wait for when Early Access is shut down next year?
Originally those of us that paid $90 or more (I payed 100) during their kickstarter got a free alpha version of planetary annihilation. Keep in mind that this was back before there was an actual game and without our funding of $90+ the game would have never been made. I, a backer, took a big chance on the project as I have with a lot of other kickstarters. I am not nor was I ever an investor, I had zero legal course if the game never came out but I still backed it because I believed in the project and the team making it. Fast forward and I get my alpha version, Im liking where its going but as some information about the game gets released more people want to get in on it now that they see its an actual game. Not long after PA was put on steam under the early access program and yeah there was a lot of controversy at the $90 price tag. Many people felt it was unfair considering the price of other games but they didnt take into account us backers. When the game was just an idea and not a game we paid at least that same price to get our alpha version. I took a risk, others who bought the steam version didnt take any risk because the alpha was already out there. To uber's credit they tried to make the backers donations mean more by forcing steam buyers to pay the same thing we did. I just feel like this needs to be put into perspective whether you agree with it or not is another discussion entirely

All that said I dont think its a nail in the coffin. I think that comes from the way early access is being run right now. Valve needs to tighten the reigns for early access programs. They can do the following to fix the issues with the program. 1. The games forums need to not be moderated by the developer because many have outright deleted threads that criticize the game. If necessary valve can appoint a small team of moderators that can be contacted when abusive or untrue threads come up. 2. Early access needs to require some kind of road map to explain to customers whats in the game, whats yet to come to the game, when those features are being worked on, as well as an estimation of when they will be added in. This should be updated monthly. 3. Early access needs to be cheaper then the full price game. Early access is essentially the minecraft model where you bought a cheaper alpha/beta. The early access route needs to get back to its roots. Point at PA all you like but at least it had a reason for its much higher price. A lot of early access games dont. 4. Early access needs to have a time limit. You can not keep your game in early access/alpha/beta forever. A three year time limit seems like enough and if a game is not fully released at that point the developers need to be hit in the pocketbook. 5. Full refunds at any time for for any reason for early access games. Many of us have put money into kickstarters or even early access games and seen the game change into ways that we did not agree with or the developers promised us would never happen (see mechwarrior). Refunds would ensure that consumers are better protected and developers are held to the standards of their backers. It would also curtail developers making false promises
 

Zontar

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Windcaler said:
I understand your perspective, however I do not agree with your opinion on the matter as I feel that Steam should remain a store and not a source of crowd funding.

Your 5 points on how to improve the system are ones I do agree with though, and once Valve is done shutting Greenlight down (though why it's taking so long between the announcement and to implementation I have no idea), I would very much like to see these changes done.
 

Windcaler

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Zontar said:
Windcaler said:
I understand your perspective, however I do not agree with your opinion on the matter as I feel that Steam should remain a store and not a source of crowd funding.
Thats a fair point of view. Im not really sure where I stand on "should steam have crowd funding/early access programs or not" but no matter where anyone stands on the issue theyre there right now. So it seems to me that constructive criticism to improve these programs is more productive then simply removing them
 

DoPo

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Amir Kondori said:
Does that "Advanced" link show up in the actual Steam client?
Can't confirm or deny definitely at this very moment, as I'm on a PC without Steam. Will check when I go back home. Still - this is functionality on the search page. Given that the Steam client (at least when it comes to the store front) is just a browser that fetches and displays pages it would be fair to assume that the functionality is also present there. Again, though, I can't confirm or deny that for definite right now. Still, it's easy to check - go to Store then click the magnifying glass search button on the top right, next to the search box. That would take you to the search results page, with the basic filters (type, OS) and advanced filters (publisher, metascore, etc.).
 

Shpongled

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DoPo said:
Amir Kondori said:
Does that "Advanced" link show up in the actual Steam client?
Can't confirm or deny definitely at this very moment, as I'm on a PC without Steam. Will check when I go back home. Still - this is functionality on the search page. Given that the Steam client (at least when it comes to the store front) is just a browser that fetches and displays pages it would be fair to assume that the functionality is also present there. Again, though, I can't confirm or deny that for definite right now. Still, it's easy to check - go to Store then click the magnifying glass search button on the top right, next to the search box. That would take you to the search results page, with the basic filters (type, OS) and advanced filters (publisher, metascore, etc.).
Can confirm advanced search function exists in the client as well as website. Has done for years as far as i know.
 

DoPo

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Shpongled said:
DoPo said:
Amir Kondori said:
Does that "Advanced" link show up in the actual Steam client?
Can't confirm or deny definitely at this very moment, as I'm on a PC without Steam. Will check when I go back home. Still - this is functionality on the search page. Given that the Steam client (at least when it comes to the store front) is just a browser that fetches and displays pages it would be fair to assume that the functionality is also present there. Again, though, I can't confirm or deny that for definite right now. Still, it's easy to check - go to Store then click the magnifying glass search button on the top right, next to the search box. That would take you to the search results page, with the basic filters (type, OS) and advanced filters (publisher, metascore, etc.).
Can confirm advanced search function exists in the client as well as website. Has done for years as far as i know.
As I said - it should do. The Steam client is a browser. Still, I could not in good consciousness be completely sure without double checking.
 

Amir Kondori

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DoPo said:
Amir Kondori said:
Does that "Advanced" link show up in the actual Steam client?
Can't confirm or deny definitely at this very moment, as I'm on a PC without Steam. Will check when I go back home. Still - this is functionality on the search page. Given that the Steam client (at least when it comes to the store front) is just a browser that fetches and displays pages it would be fair to assume that the functionality is also present there. Again, though, I can't confirm or deny that for definite right now. Still, it's easy to check - go to Store then click the magnifying glass search button on the top right, next to the search box. That would take you to the search results page, with the basic filters (type, OS) and advanced filters (publisher, metascore, etc.).
I checked it out once I signed into Steam (I'm on vacation and on my grandparent's older computer) and yes, it is there as well. I don't know how I missed that, I work IT and am super computer literate. They could make it stand a little more, but it is there if you look.
Thanks for pointing it out.