What defines Hardcore? -- Elitism among gamers

[windfish]

Essay: This is a bit of a long post, so don't read it if you don't want to, and don't comment if you didn't read it.

I play video games - that is the only statement here that cannot be argued. Whether I qualify as "hardcore" or even as a "gamer", depends not only on one's point of view, but also on what genre of games I play, and various levels of elitism inherent to the territory.

I'll have to use myself as an example, since I don't get out much. So bear with a little background.

Most of my game-playing friends would not define me as hardcore, or even a gamer. I never owned a non-handheld console, and still don't - I've always been a "come over and play some games" guy. When I was six, this meant being Tails on my friend's Sonic the Hedgehog 2. When I was 16, this meant Melee. I got pretty damn good at Melee too - about as good as I could be without "practicing" and learning to WaveDash and SHFFL, and I chivalrouly vowed never to edge-hog. My parents never let me play many games online on the family computer, and I didn't get my own until the summer before college. I generally don't play competitive FPS (I'm terrible at Halo, and get my ass handed to me on Counterstrike when I even bother to try). I consider myself a fan of the RTS - I love the Total War series, and I enjoy Age of Empires style things, but I haven't played any Warcraft or Starcraft. I have also only played one Final Fantasy game - FFIV.

My father and my girlfriend, however, would consider me a gamer. On my handhelds, I ran the gamut. Obviously, my first game and favorite of all time is Zelda: Link's Awakening. I got all the Mario remakes and caught up on some missed console-time, as well as the newer Metroids and the remake of Link to the Past. I caught them all on Pokemon, and didn't let them evolve until they learned all their best moves, and never used the Cinnabar cheat. I did it again on Silver, and again in Ruby. My first real RPG was Golden Sun. On the computer, I played the Total War games and loved them, and Jedi Knight II and III. However, I never had nearly the amount of time to game as many of my "gamer" friends did, since I have been always pursuing music. Nowadays, I read and watch reviews extensively, knowing that I can only really get one game a year, and spend a lot of my free time in my friend's dorm room, getting some Brawl on. After watching reviews, I played my first single-player FPS just last month - Half Life 2.

My friend (let's call him Jim), by contrast, definitely fits the bill of "hardcore". He owns an XBox360, refuses to touch a Wii (we can discuss this later), and plays all the big-hitters, and some of the obscure ones, too. He doesn't much like Halo either, but other than that, you name a big hitting game, and he's probably played it. And of course, we can assume that he owned an N64, PS2, SuperNES, and so on down the line.

Jim says that he "Hates the Wii. Nintendo sold out to the casual gamer, and I hate them for it." (I tend to disagree with him here - While I am frustrated by the lack of good games for the Wii, and the tendency that developers have to try to shoehorn the mo-sensing controls in, I don't think you can deny that LoZ:TP and SMG qualify as hardcore. or can you?). Here's a tricky thing, though.

There's a lot of elitism among gamers today, and it comes in different forms. First, there's the old-timer. Most gamers agree that you have to at some point play the old Nintendo stand-bys, like the original Zelda, Mario, Metroid, and their early sequels. (I have done all this on the GBA. Damn, but Metroid was harder than college). The old-timer will judge you if you haven't.

Made somewhat self-conscious by the fact that their parents and girlfriends consider video games childish, another elitism emerges, decrying simple games, and sticking stubbornly to their FPS and RPGs.

There are, of course, other types of elitists. Feel free to name some more, especially the ones that irk you. [EDIT: You can even include me, if you really want. You might hurt my feelings, though.]

With the onset of the Wii, people are beginning to notice an increasing dichotomy between "Casual" and "Hardcore" gamers. My first point of discussion: I submit that gaming started off casual. Given that, when did hardcore games/gamers emerge? Looking back, do we consider gamers that played certain games more hardcore now than they did themselves back then, or vice versa? Feel free to argue that the original gamers were hardcore by default, or what the distinction was back then. Subtopic - how did the early arcades factor in?

I would like the theorize that the appearance of memory in games started to lead to the dichotomy. While games like Mario and Sonic could demanded to be beaten in one sitting, Zelda and Metroid demanded and allowed for a longer commitment. The onset of long RPGs may have created the "novel" class of video games, which one must approach with the same varying level of commitment that one approaches a 700 page novel. Also, the rise of FPS's may have created a new class of hardcore - the folk that strive to excel at them by studying maps, perfecting their pop-tarting technique, sightless sniping, and tactics. Starcraft must have had its impact as well.

Second topic: Are there different types of hardcore? Is a WoW player Hardcore? What about your average Halo fan? Starcraft junkie? Counter-striker? Are Nintendo folk hardcore? What about Final Fantasy enthusiasts? Does hardcore require a broad range of genres, or can you specialize?

For instance, After reading reviews and being convinced that Nintendo's really trying to make a good game and not just cashing in, I play any Zelda game I can, which is limiting, since I don't own a console - I'll have to wait till the summer to play TP. I also will play any Metroid, or Mario game, too. As far as PC games go, I'll play anything that catches my eye with a good review, but that said, I generally purchase only one game a year, and it usually takes me a few weeks, or in the case of Total War, upwards of months to beat. Third topic: Is someone like me hardcore? Or even a "gamer?"

Feel free to extend these observations and questions with more observations and questions. Most of all, what is your definition of "gamer", and past that, "hardcore"?

EDIT: [Also, this is my first general post to the board - up till now I've been just commenting. If you feel like it, tell me what you think of it.]

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Elitist: Someone in a group that excludes you. Usually by your own standards.(Subcategory : An insult used to anyone who is agreed with)

Hardcore : Games are THE most important thing to you.

Given that Japan ran out of quarters during the Space Invader years; I think that was the birth of the phenomenon, but there have been other activities before that. Beatlemania etc.

Differing types of Hardcore: Only as many different flavours of icecream.

Gamer: Someone who plays games.

 

[windfish]

Elitist: Someone in a group that excludes you. Usually by your own standards.(Subcategory : An insult used to anyone who is agreed with)

Haha - nice. I think that just about defines it. I was more looking for specific examples from lots of point of views - and since the Escapist has a pretty broad readership as far as different types of gamers to, we'd certainly get a pretty encompassing set of prejudices all around.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

"Casual player" - person who plays games mainly as a pass-time or adjunct to a social event.

"Gamer" - person who plays games as a hobby. Often this means more frequent play than casual players, and usually for longer sessions than casual players.

"Hardcore" - person who plays games as a vocation. Often plays even longer and more often than a gamer, and has specialised knowledge of in-game mechanics or story canon not commonly known by gamers and casual players of the title(s) played.

All of the above have subcategories based on platform and genre, and a person can qualify under multiple classifications. For instance, I'd call myself a casual puzzle player, an RTS and FPS gamer, and a hardcore Halo fan.

Is that of any use?

-- Steve

 

[Warrenplat]

I think that anyone who plays videogames on a semi-regular basis (at least) can be considered a gamer. Also the distinction between hardcore and casual has always been a bit fuzzy for me as well. Some of my friends insist that hardcore gamers are the kind of people who shut themselves in all weekend mashing out dungeon after dungeon in WoW. Then again some people insist that FPS or RTS or RPGs are the only games that can be considered hardcore. So, in short, I think that hardcoreness can transfer between genres. But, I've always played videogames because I think they're fun. And when you take the fun out of it by saying that someone has to play such and such a game or that the Wii is dumb simply because it has casual games, it ruins the spirit of gaming. I agree that gaming started off as a casual thing. There may have been highly skilled competitive Pac-Man players that I've never heard of, but most people never wanted to spend endless hours playing. As for a question of my own: How many of you guys consider yourself hardcore gamers?

 

[windfish]

"Casual player" - person who plays games mainly as a pass-time or adjunct to a social event.

"Gamer" - person who plays games as a hobby. Often this means more frequent play than casual players, and usually for longer sessions than casual players.

"Hardcore" - person who plays games as a vocation. Often plays even longer and more often than a gamer, and has specialised knowledge of in-game mechanics or story canon not commonly known by gamers and casual players of the title(s) played.

All of the above have subcategories based on platform and genre, and a person can qualify under multiple classifications. For instance, I'd call myself a casual puzzle player, an RTS and FPS gamer, and a hardcore Halo fan.

Is that of any use?

-- Steve

Certainly is - thanks for replying! I consider myself a serious adventure gamer, semi-hardcore RTS player, RPG gamer, and casual FPSer as yet.

 

[cattypat]

When I was a kid, I used to think everyone who played games was like me. Myself I always kept my games safe and tidy, the cardboard boxes safely stacked away and never took my anger out on my console (its like self harm, dont do it!). I also experimented with different game types and bought what interested me personally (invested in 5 player multi-port bomberman on the snes, worth every penny!).

When I started going round my friends houses, I was horrified to find how badly they treated their games. Games strewn all over their room with boxes discarded, manuals torn or made into dodgeballs. Cartridges being thrown at siblings for laughs. Disks used as drink coasters and piles of smashed controlers. I once lent a friend Perfect Dark and it came back with a ripped box, wrinkled like it had been in a bath, and without its box insides and manual.

I also found these fellow "gamers", owned tons of racing and sports games but only 1 or 2 good original games. When I asked why they don't buy other games, they said they are not interested if their friends dont play them, they only play the same games.

So since my childhood i've been pretty elitist myself when it comes to games, as I have always treated them with great respect. I have come to learn that the example given above is "The Common Gamer" and that I feel both honoured of my experiance yet saddened that these people will never experiance original games and have the respect you used to need for gaming(no shop guides/internet/unlimited tries, just a few magazines and your home made maps!).

Now that I have over 20 years of games, I feel myself twitch when my potential future games are being sabotaged to be "more like COD" "more like Warcraft" "more like GTA", and I wonder why this is happening. It seems games are moving from experimental technology, interactive art and stress relief into mass commercialism, ready to forget what it learned to make formulaic megabucks.

For me it is hard not to be bitter and talk down against anyone who I think might be causing this. Despite the internet giveing access to some of the most amazing original games, finding these amonst all the noise from the popular games is almost an impossibility. My favourite MMO games (neocron, darkspace) were only ever played by a few thousand people, yet might as well have millions for how much I enjoyed it. I have never had my heart pound hard with worry or sweat run down my forehead whilst playing WoW, Guild wars, city of heros or tabula rasa, and they all play like maths homework - slow, dull and predictable.

Thats just some of the reasons I am a twisted elitist

 

[Remag]

I submit that gaming started off casual. Given that, when did hardcore games/gamers emerge? Looking back, do we consider gamers that played certain games more hardcore now than they did themselves back then, or vice versa? Feel free to argue that the original gamers were hardcore by default, or what the distinction was back then.

While its murky when the concept of hardcore gaming originated within the gaming community, I would speculate that the concept really took wing when gaming became less a fringe, subculture hobby and more mainstream, pop culture hobby. Naturally, exactly when this phenomenon began is highly debatable (some may say it began with the release of Final Fantasy 7. Others speculate that Halo was the game that bridged the gap between these two cultures. Still others theorize that Pop Cap gaming and similar simple flash games gave a taste of gaming (and the gaming community, to a lessor extent, as seen in the development of online, competitive flash gaming) to the non-gamer), yet I believe that whenever this event occurred, "old school" gamers (read, gamers who were playing games before they were popular) sought to differentiate themselves from those they may have perceived as jumping on the gaming band wagon, hence the division between "hardcore" and "casual" gaming (a categorization that, as the TC has pointed out, seems to have divided even further thanks to the advent of the Wii).

In this manner, an older gamer is hardcore by default due to their presence in the gaming community before such an activity could be considered popular (or for that matter, socially acceptable, as evident by the American perspective on gamers over the age of 14). Naturally, this assumes you subscribe to his particular theory.

Others may suggest, however, that the original titles back in what many consider the Golden Age of gaming (typically attributed either to the Atari generation or the NES/SNES generation) were, shall we say, more demanding of their players in regards to skill level. Quality titles of the day (the Original Super Mario brothers, Metroid, Zelda, Pac Man, Megaman, Ghouls and Ghosts, etc) were games that many gamers would call, at the very least, challenging, and the simple mechanics of control back then didn't allow for many of the conveinances that gamers of such games take for granted today (say, for example, the ability to modify the tradjectory of your jump in mid-air in a platform game, or the ability to set waylay points in Real Time Strategy Games). Arguably, skill based games (as opposed to stat based games such as traditional RPGs) have gotten easier as time has progressed, perhaps as a means of catering to this new "casual" gaming audience, and as a result, those gamers who grew up on more challenging stock mark themselves as somehow superior to newcomers into the industry.

Are there different types of hardcore? Is a WoW player Hardcore? What about your average Halo-playing fratboy? Starcraft junkie? Counter-striker? Are Nintendo folk hardcore? What about Final Fantasy enthusiasts? Does hardcore require a broad range of genres, or can you specialize?

Certainly there are different types of hardcore. The title seems to be based on a variety (or at times, a combination) of factors.

Some gamers use chronology to determine their level of hardcore, justifying their title of such by making a claim that they've been gaming since the NES generation (to which other bearers of the title typically counter by citing a predating console for their originals into the subculture, sometimes going as far back as the Odeyessy.) Personally, I label these hardcore gamers "Old School Gamers."

Other gamers use obscure achievements as a means of proving their hardcore-osity (typically, these gamers engage in activities such as speed runs, 100% completion runs in large, complex games, or play typical games with a self imposed handicapp like using no materia in Final Fantasy 7). I label these hardcore gamers "Achievement Gamers."

Still other gamers use statistics in tournament recognized video games as a means of justifying their title, and are quick to point out their Steam profile in Team Fortress 2, or list their kill/death rations in Counterstrike, or their ladder place in Starcraft, or how much money they've won in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Tournaments, etc. I label these hardcore gamers "Tournament Gamers."

Some gamers define themselves as hardcore based on how important video gaming is to their daily routine, often telling stories of how they've skipped out on school, work, sleep, meals, dates, etc in order to fulfill the requirements of some accomplishment or another, or list the incredible amount of investment they've made into expensive gaming rigs or priceless gaming collectibles/trinkets/tattoos/etc. I label these hardcore gamers "Lifetime Gamers."

Other gamers use the platform one games on as the means of defining their hardcore status. Typically, gamers view PC gamers as greater than console gamers (where justly or unjustly is a matter for a different discussion). Of the console gamers, various arguments seek to define which console gamers are more or less hardcore than the others (a point which one couldn't help but notice in almost any debate comparing the Xbox360 to the Wii). I label these hardcore gamers "Dedicated Gamers," (and tend to avoid the less flattering term "Fanboy").

Indoubtably, there are other definitions of "hardcore" admist the gaming community, and quite frankly, that all serves to illustrate my understanding of the concept in that there is no uniform defintion upon which all of the gaming community has come to embrace. That the term, while not meaningless, is highly subjective, and it has been my opinion that typically is only so meaningful as the bearer is willing to accept. Curiously enough, the qualifications that define a gamer as hardcore (as listed above, and perhaps as exist admist the community) can be achieved by almost any gamer, including those gamers who are almost universally defined as "casual" by the gaming community (Indeed, a Pop Cap gamer can become extrodinarily good at a particular Pop Cap flash game, acquring obscure achievements in it as the Achievement Gamer, scoring ridiculously high scores in it as the Tournament Gamer, or play it at the expense of other activities as per the Lifetime Gamer, nevermind the fact that their very limitations mark them as a Dedicated Gamer, ironcially to a "platform" that many other hardcore gamers consider casual.)

In short, it is of my opinion that a gamer is hardcore if he or she believes himself to be.

As to what defines a gamer, to be mercifully brief, a gamer is, indeed, one who plays games.

After all, I think the length of this post is offensive enough as it is.

 

[qbert4ever]

To me, there is no such thing as a "hardcore" gamer. I only recognize four types of people:

Average Joes - Just your regular guy. Has a maximum of one console and one handheld. Does not play many games, if at all, and only really plays when friends are with him.

Gamers - A gamer is somebody who can have many consoles or very few. Has at least two games, and has either invited, or been invited to somebody's home to play games. Namely, a gamer is somebody who enjoys playing games on at least a semi-regular basis. Can do anything from playing games for four hours a week to writing game reviews as a job.

Pricks - The title a gamer receives if said gamer looks down on other people for liking a certain type of game, or not liking another. Will go to any length to prove that you are stupid unless you agree with everything he or she says. Pricks should be avoided at all costs.

Freaks - Like a Prick, only times 1000. These are the people that you hear about in the news that kill themselves playing games non-stop. Remember that kid that died in the internet cafe playing games for three days with no breaks? Freak. It is the only word that describes them. Your best bet after hearing about a Freak is to pretend you did not hear anything and just move on.

 

[Wazzelbe]

Q: There are, of course, other types of elitists. Feel free to name some more, especially the ones that irk you.
A: The fact that there are other types of elitists convinces me that "hardcore gamer" is a title given to the most obsessive of up-to-date gamers, leaving varying degrees of obsession (you can use a softer term, if you want, but I've lost chunks of my weeks to games. I'm looking at YOU, Orange Box.) to be identified and labeled in each area of gaming. Naming them all would be like trying to name every offshoot of Roman Catholicism since Martin Luther came around and shattered it like a porcelain dish (no offense, Roman Catholics; just stating history).

Q: I submit that gaming started off casual. Given that, when did hardcore games/gamers emerge? Looking back, do we consider gamers that played certain games more hardcore now than they did themselves back then, or vice versa? Feel free to argue that the original gamers were hardcore by default, or what the distinction was back then.
A: I'd say hardcore games (and gamers) have been around since video games have existed. Maybe the concept of the world the game is set in caught their attention, or simply a competitive impulse, but I can imagine the lines between "casual", "hobbyist" and "hardcore" gamer being drawn when the guys working on the first Pong game were playing it themselves. Who had the most fun with it? Who wanted to take the game to "the next level" and win? Who just wanted to sell the damn thing? These interactions probably blah blah blah see "Roman Catholicism" reference.

Q: Are there different types of hardcore? Is a WoW player Hardcore? What about your average Halo fan? Starcraft junkie? Counter-striker? Are Nintendo folk hardcore? What about Final Fantasy enthusiasts? Does hardcore require a broad range of genres, or can you specialize?
A: I can see a 1950's-looking video describing aspects of one who plays "hardcore" in scratchy audio and fuzzy video, with bullet points next to each question like, "Does the player in question spend large amounts of time playing games?". I think, offline, most people can tell who is a hardcore gamer and who isn't through simple conversation, and the hardcore will most often agree with the ... "lesser-core"?

Q: Is someone like me hardcore? Or even a "gamer?"
A: Meh. You play games. On a TV/monitor. Heck, if you played the original Metroid then you're above me in the devotion/interest department. So yeah, I'd say you could call yourself a gamer. Of course, doing so (or NOT doing so) could further define what kind of gamer you are. Maybe elitist casual gamers are defined by looking down on any who call themselves "gamers" while still playing games. I dunno.

Q: What is your definition of "gamer", and past that, "hardcore"?
A: If you ask someone if they play video games and they say "Yes." without stating that they HAVE played video games or they OCCASIONALLY play, then there's a gamer. There are certain parameters I don't have to illustrate that separate a gamer from someone who has played/ occasionally plays. Just because your grandma plays solitaire during afternoons doesn't mean she's a gamer. It means she prefers it to using cards. Now, if she plays it competitively online, with a group of like-minded individuals... well, now your grandma's a gamer. Granted, I've never heard of "competitive solitaire". It's probably somewhere on the web, with its own group of enthusiasts...
...
The further down this rabbit hole I look the more afraid I become.
Ooh! Should I make that last bit my quote or something? Someone's probably already said it. Think I'll google it.

 

[propertyofcobra]

Gamer: Someone who plays games regularly, as a hobby. *AND* owns them. If you get games regularly despite that you've got plenty of books and movies to keep yourself entertained already, you're a gamer.
Hardcore gamer: If going to church on sundays and owning a bible is being a gamer, Ned Flanders is a hardcore gamer. Videogames is SERIOUS BUSINESS. You can get pissed off about someone having the wrong opinion/facts on games (but you don't have to). You play them daily, for over an hour a day.
That's how I define hardcore, at least.

 

[Mr Scott]

A hardcore gamer would know what game windfish's name came from

 

[Anton P. Nym]

And brings up another wrinkle maybe: why is there such a total disconnect between modern (electronic) gaming and old-school hardcore (board) gaming? We've had 'hardcore' gamers in the past: people who spent their lives painting miniatures, people who played _Diplomacy_ like it was their job, people who would write strategy articles about using game mechanics for publications like _The General_ as if it were a technical journal. Do we recognize those people as part of our 'tribe' or are they aliens to us?

Not that I'm typical or anything, but I do have Rise and Decline of the Third Reich on my bookshelf, alongside Third World War, Assault, Panzer, Star Fleet Battles, Harpoon... all gathering dust, alas. Who has the time to even set up the boards anymore?

I think that's one reason all but the grogn-iest of the grognards migrated to PC and console gaming... the set-up and tear-down is so much simpler when it's all bytes instead of cardboard bits. (Hmmm... Panzer General as a gateway drug for the kreigspeileren? Come to think of it, wouldn't it be a good title for the Xbox Live Arcade/PS Store?)

To come back from the tangent, I guess there are many old-school tabletop and miniatures gamers in the current video game player population, but that those of the newer generation (that hasn't slapped brush to lead or hunted between cushions for that stray infantry counter) outnumbers it.

-- Steve

 

[Wazzelbe]

A hardcore gamer would know what game windfish's name came from

Link's Awakening, right?
This just popped in to my head: What if there are larger, more static terms for varying degrees of devotion to video games and such, only they overlap, and we slip from one to the other, sometimes?
Maybe you're officially "hardcore" in the 14 hours you spend playing a game you like, where your mind enters that dreamlike, almost ZOMBIFIED state, and the passing of day and night outside your window is noted with little more than mild surprise. The sensations- mostly negative at this point- and needs of your body, likewise, are only vaguely acknowledged and filed into the back of your consciousness, which feels tired and scrambled except for the part that is focused entirely on the game. When you finally fall asleep (either in bed or at the desk) you DREAM you're playing the game.
If you believe this experience has happened to you, then you've entered the realm that "Hardcore" gamers regularly visit.

 

[innocent42]

Hardcore gamers are the evolution of the arcade junkies of the past. They play for the most kills, the highest scores, the most obscure achievements. They don't play games to enjoy the game, they play to win. The fun they get from games doesn't come from enjoying the pretty graphics, the interactive worlds, or the stories (most hardcore gamers play primarily online.) They have fun because they are really good at the games they play and like topping the leaderboards. I suppose someone who obsessively plays every single FF game, shunning online play, could be hardcore, but they don't fit the "im pwnin n00bs *****" stereotype.

Casual gamers play just for a few minutes amusement. They like getting points, or just beating levels, but they aren't interested in topping the leaderboards, spending time on an intricate story, or developing twitch reflexes fast enough to win serious Counter-Strike matches.

Gamers are people who like playing games and do so regularly. I think I fall into that category. I prefer single player games, and if I'm elitist,it's because I look down on people who are either hardcore or casual because I feel that they don't appreciate the full range of what games have to offer, and the fact that games can be art too.

The Orange Box actually came with six games. Discounting Portal, which kind of breaks my little hypothesis, the hardcore gamer's favorite is TF2, the everyman gamer's is HL2, and the casual gamer's is of course Peggle Extreme.

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

Elite: Someone who plays a game a lot and is quite good at it.

Hardcore: Someone who eats, breathes and lives Video Games. Someone who could play said Game backwards without their arms.

Gamer: Someone who plays Video Games every once and a while.

The most annoying kind of Elitist are people who play MMOs roughly 98% of their time. People who yell at you when you don't have the correct skills or weapon. Makes me want to strangle them. I find the squeakers on Halo 3 annoying but I normally mute everyone whenever I play.

 

[windfish]

Maybe that's how we should define a 'gamer': someone who simply *must* get some games in no matter how much entertainment they may be getting from other sources.

I think that's a pretty good definition, and I think it at least describes me pretty well.

Hey, thanks for all your replies, folks! Oh, and welcome to Remag and Wazzelbe, who both used their first comments here - and both with rather in-depth responses. Thanks!

And brings up another wrinkle maybe: why is there such a total disconnect between modern (electronic) gaming and old-school hardcore (board) gaming? We've had 'hardcore' gamers in the past: people who spent their lives painting miniatures, people who played _Diplomacy_ like it was their job, people who would write strategy articles about using game mechanics for publications like _The General_ as if it were a technical journal. Do we recognize those people as part of our 'tribe' or are they aliens to us?

Yeah, I kind of missed that boat - I guess I was too young. Penny Arcade (and its shameless rip-off, Ctrl-Alt-Del) both highlight this fact hilariously. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10
(Well, Ctrl-Alt-Del is less funny about it.) I guess I agree with Anton P. Nym that video games offer a similar experience with a little less hassle - if I read him correctly. (?) There's definitely still an underground out there. It must be rule 36 - if you can it, there's an underground community still devoted to it.