What did you think of the explanation for Reavers in Serenity? *SPOILERS*

[Drathnoxis]

I thought it stunk! In Firefly, We barely knew anything about the. They lived on the edge of space and were a whispered myth among the rest of the galaxy. You also get the impression they don't lose many people, because if a Reaver corpse were documented they wouldn't be a myth for long. They seem to have supernatural combat ability and prowess, judging by the threat a single Reaver ship poses and the swath of destruction wrought by the one 'survivor' in Bushwhacked. Whether this was from their devotion to violence, or something more we don't know. The only thing we really knew is that they were utterly and completely depraved. Murder, rape, cannibalism, self mutilation, anything to do with pain and suffering seems to be their very nature. They are so corrupt that anybody who bears witness to their depravity becomes as they are. It's a mystery, are they simply madmen who take pleasure in pain, or something more?

Well, in Serenity we learn the answer. They're rage zombies. That's all. They breathed in the bad PAX air and became rage zombies. Boring! Their entire presentation in the movie was a let down. They just shamble along doing violence, as zombies are wont to do. They've completely lost the hint of having transcended humanity that was previously present. They don't even look intelligent enough to fly and maintain their ships. They were mindless enough to just keep piling into that well defended hallway at the end there, getting mowed down. I'm aware that no explanation could have lived up to the mystery that was built around them, so I'm curious as to why the filmmakers even gave us one? It's like they didn't even understand why the Reavers worked in the first place and were as frightening as they were. It certainly wasn't because they were some folks that breathed bad air one time that made them crazy forever.

So what did you think of Serenity's Reaver explanation?

 

[DefunctTheory]

A tad late to the party, aren't we?

I joke, of course. It's never too late for a bit of Firefly.

To answer your overall question though... it's rushed. Joss Wheden had probably 4 years of Firefly story stocked up (Not actually written scripts, of course, but I'm fairly certain he had a broad strokes version set out), but he only had 90 minutes to sort it all out. He needed to close the series out, while at the same time trying to deal with what he already had to lay out. This required that he rush through things, creating fairly rudimentary answers that could be given to the viewer in that short time frame, to questions that would have had dozens of hours over several years to flesh out if the plan had been followed.

If given time, I'm sure we would have gotten more 3 dimensional villains. I imagine the intention was that Reaver would be slightly less raving mad when out of range of victims, at least sane enough to keep their ramshackle fleet operational. Perhaps we would have found out that in the absence of continued PAX air, they got a smudge more sane. Perhaps they could have made it so the original Reavers were, in fact, all dead, and the Reavers we know now are the victims they left behind, driven insane and to Reaver behavior (As shown in the original series).

But alas, there wasn't time. So they were forced to give a shallow answer (And lets be honest, if they didn't explain it, someone, perhaps even you, may have made a thread much like this, asking why the Reavers were never given an explanation at all).

Myself... yes, the Reavers we were given were not great. The movie itself had a lot of flaws. But I'm willing to give Whedon a little bit of leeway. He didn't have to fight to make the movie, nor was he under any obligation to try and explain anything. I think he did a pretty good job under the restrictions he was under.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well I though it was better than "guys who just went batty on the edge of space" and I wouldn't have liked it if they had no explanation. It wasn't brilliant but it was serviceable.

Slightly off topic but the the protagonists deciding to lead a whole bunch of them into alliance ships was a WTH hero moment to me.

 

[Fox12]

I imagine the intention was that Reaver would be slightly less raving mad when out of range of victims, at least sane enough to keep their ramshackle fleet operational. Perhaps we would have found out that in the absence of continued PAX air, they got a smudge more sane. Perhaps they could have made it so the original Reavers were, in fact, all dead, and the Reavers we know now are the victims they left behind, driven insane and to Reaver behavior (As shown in the original series).

I always imagined that the Reavers were like those things from Event Horizon. Sadistic and evil, sure, but still pretty intelligent. They seem capable of guerrilla warfare, for instance. If they were just raving lunatics then the Alliance could wipe them out pretty easily. If they can fly and maintain ships, and raid colonies for supplies, then they must be pretty smart. That's probably why they're becoming more active in the series. They're running out of resources, and they're having to scavenge for them elsewhere. If Whedon had more time to explore the idea, it probably could have been pretty interesting.

That doesn't make them less terrifying, though. I seem to remember a scene where the main crew flies by one of their fleets, and you can hear the screams of their victims. The implication is that they'll take prisoners back to their hell ships for rape, torture, and consumption.

Spoiler

Well, in Serenity we learn the answer. They're rage zombies. That's all. They breathed in the bad PAX air and became rage zombies. Boring! Their entire presentation in the movie was a let down. They just shamble along doing violence, as zombies are wont to do. They've completely lost the hint of having transcended humanity that was previously present. They don't even look intelligent enough to fly and maintain their ships. They were mindless enough to just keep piling into that well defended hallway at the end there, getting mowed down. I'm aware that no explanation could have lived up to the mystery that was built around them, so I'm curious as to why the filmmakers even gave us one? It's like they didn't even understand why the Reavers worked in the first place and were as frightening as they were. It certainly wasn't because they were some folks that breathed bad air one time that made them crazy forever.

I liked it, but like everything in Serenity, it could have been done much, much better. It felt like a cliffnotes version of what Whedon actually wanted. The reason it works is because it fits into the anti-government message that pervades the story. It's part of a larger whole. The Alliance tried to take away free will, and control its people. It had the opposite impact. Mal says that they failed once, but that they'd try again. The thing is, the Alliance did try again. The experiments they performed on River had the same goal as the experiments they performed on the Reavers. If left to their own devices, the Alliance would do all sorts of horrifying things in the name of peace.

 

[TakerFoxx]

I actually saw Serenity first (and loved it), so I never had a problem with them. Hell, I was actually disappointed that they didn't show up in more episodes when I finally got around to watching Firefly.

 

[Zhukov]

Meh, I thought it was a decent enough explanation.

Although, like you, I did wonder how people who act like that are supposed to operate and maintain a fleet of ships. Wouldn't they just murder and rape each other into extinction? How do they manage to sustain a population? Assuming one survives through pregnancy how does the kid live past infancy?

Then again, I didn't find them remotely mysterious in the show. Once they were introduced I was just like, "Righto then, so they're basically extra rapey spice vikings. Gotcha."

Besides, that episode with the reaver survivor was dumb. Dude sees a bunch of rape, torture and murder and promptly, after a conveniently timed delay, decides he's going to start doing the same. Except he skips straight to the murder. Also he spontaneously becomes a ninja who can overpower an entire operating theater of people, sneak undetected around a military vessel that he's never seen before and take out at least one armed sentry.

Because he saw some shit.

Phht.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I blame Fox. Forcing Whedon to consolidate the series into a movie wrap-up/finale... I get the feeling the character deaths that hurt so much were a catharsis for Joss and a message that Firefly is done...
The Reavers? Well it wasn't a bad choice. Just would have explained better in a longer TV series arc. But wegot what wegot.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The film was just kind of bad..

And yes, I always thought the "bushwhacked" concept was better. Granted, spaaaaace madness is a bit of a sci-fi trope, but the idea that the edge of the solar system (yeah, anyone who still thinks anything in Firefly was remotely "realistic" or should be held to any standard of realism, the entire thing was supposed to take place within a single solar system - if your suspension of disbelief is intact then I'm afraid you know nothing, John Snow), the idea that the sheer vastness of interstellar space was so incomprehensible that it would literally drive people insane just by being there was kind of neat, in a way.

It also fitted in thematically with the whole centre/periphery theme. The inner planets are safe but authoritarian and boring, the outer planets are freer but also lawless and prone to violence, the further out you go, the more chaotic, violent and free everything got until you got to the point "beyond the frontier" where there are no rules and nothing to keep people from devolving into savage monsters. There's an interesting pessimism about human nature there, as well.. without laws and rules, people are just monsters.

 

[Buckets]

Well a lot better than Midichlorians making 'force' in the blood that's for sure. Agree that another series might have come up with a much better and more interesting definition.

 

[Erttheking]

Bleh.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that some mysteries are just better left unsolved. The Reapers in Mass Effect were something similar. Don't tell me WHY they're doing what they're doing or where they came from, just have them do it. There's nothing that you can come up with that is more terrifying than what our sick twisted imaginations can produce.

Then again I'm not fond of Serenity. It's what turned Renyolds from a jerk with a heart of gold to a complete and utter **** for me.

 

[Erttheking]

Then again, I didn't find them remotely mysterious in the show. Once they were introduced I was just like, "Righto then, so they're basically extra rapey spice vikings. Gotcha."

Yeah that's kind of a problem. You can't make someone mysterious and then give their actions clearly defined patterns. As nauseating as comments about being raped to death are, it does kind of turn them into a one trick pony.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't mind them to be perfectly honest. First this was what? 2004? 2005? Rage zombies were not exactly all the rage just yet but more importantly sometimes there is something to be said for delivering well on an old trope instead of coming up with something new.

My real problems with Serenity have a lot more to do with River frankly. We're never REALLY shown what the conflict was between the rebels and Fedaration but it seems in general that Fedaration controlled planets are better off economically, presumably just safer in general. Now I don't know how much the rebels were actually hurting anything out on the frontier or if the frontier really exists the way it's depicted. I mean they appear capable of traveling from the inner planets to the outer planets (including Miranda which as I understand it is outside the outside) in reasonable stretches of time. So it should be closer to modern America socially than 1800's America. By which I mean today we basically have big cities where ever this cool shit. It's not the farther you get from New York and the East Coast the steadily more rural things become. So the "frontier" planets in a system like that should logically just be the ones with crap resources (Which I suppose COULD include sufficiently mild climate via being the right distance from the sun. But that is NEVER discussed.

Onto River not only did she not know what was inside her head but Simon likely gave zero shits. Mal and the rest of the crew cared less. Putting River on a "snipe this ***** if you see her" list is one thing but everything that goes wrong for the fedaration does so because they didn't leave well enough alone. Who's gonna believe the escaped mental patient? Or risk a run through Reaver space? Mal only did it because his ass was up against a wall and he didn't see any other options.

Finally back to the reavers it seems obvious once you see the movie that Reavers were allowed to stick around because they served a political purpose. I wouldn't go quite so far as to call them a happy accident but you know what probably helps encourage guys like Mal to play nicer than they otherwise might? A roving army of space raping cannibals that presumably would be easily enough driven off by the primary fleet if it ever came to that. They certainly don't attack core worlds and it's probably because it's physically impossible to reach.

 

[the December King]

I actually saw Serenity first (and loved it), so I never had a problem with them. Hell, I was actually disappointed that they didn't show up in more episodes when I finally got around to watching Firefly.

You know what's funny? My better half and I saw the series first, and we felt the movie was awful, and we actually liked the fact that in the series the Reavers were a fringe element, only touched on on occasion, instead of just angry zombie men for the ninja pixie to beat up (I was kinda disappointed when River became a summation of Joss Whedon's super ninja girl characters- during the show, she had some freaky cool moments, but she wasn't an unstoppable ballet valkyrie, and I found her more interesting for it).

In fact, when it comes to Firefly/Serenity, this isn't the first time I've heard of folks really digging whatever they saw first, movie or series, and being disappointed with what they watch next.

Not that I believe this to be a rule, mind you- just an observation.

 

[Battenberg]

I liked it. I certainly can't think of a better explanation that could have fitted into a single film and it made for a pretty good final outing for the Firefly crew.

Yeah it would have been nice for the show to have had more time to develop a better story for them or introduce the audience to some other comparable threat to base a film round; sadly we never got the chance.

 

[TakerFoxx]

I actually saw Serenity first (and loved it), so I never had a problem with them. Hell, I was actually disappointed that they didn't show up in more episodes when I finally got around to watching Firefly.

You know what's funny? My better half and I saw the series first, and we felt the movie was awful, and we actually liked the fact that in the series the Reavers were a fringe element, only touched on on occasion, instead of just angry zombie men for the ninja pixie to beat up (I was kinda disappointed when River became a summation of Joss Whedon's super ninja girl characters- during the show, she had some freaky cool moments, but she wasn't an unstoppable ballet valkyrie, and I found her more interesting for it).

In fact, when it comes to Firefly/Serenity, this isn't the first time I've heard of folks really digging whatever they saw first, movie or series, and being disappointed with what they watch next.

Not that I believe this to be a rule, mind you- just an observation.

Oh, I wasn't disappointed in the show itself. Quite the contrary, it was and still is my favorite show of all time. But learning that Reavers only get involved in two episodes, both of them very early, was kind of a bummer.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I just thought of another reason it didn't work for me. The Reavers in Serenity were forced to become Reavers, they had no choice in the matter, they were victimized. It's a lot more disturbing to me that somebody would just decide one day that they really want nothing more than to rape people until their skin falls off and then fashion that skin into a fancy new bikini or something, than it is that the big bad government just accidentally made people into rage zombies.

 

[Something Amyss]

I thought it beat the alternative.

Well I though it was better than "guys who just went batty on the edge of space" and I wouldn't have liked it if they had no explanation.

Agreed on the first part, but I think I would have preferred if they had stayed an enigma, a dangerous threat we simply didn't understand. Maybe a hint or two down the line, but nothing concrete.

Slightly off topic but the the protagonists deciding to lead a whole bunch of them into alliance ships was a WTH hero moment to me.

In a "we want to stop the bad guys from doing bad things so let's create some war atrocities" sense?

Besides, that episode with the reaver survivor was dumb. Dude sees a bunch of rape, torture and murder and promptly, after a conveniently timed delay, decides he's going to start doing the same. Except he skips straight to the murder. Also he spontaneously becomes a ninja who can overpower an entire operating theater of people, sneak undetected around a military vessel that he's never seen before and take out at least one armed sentry.

Because he saw some shit.

Phht.

Dude, are you trying to tell me PTSD doesn't give you super powers? Jesus, is there any upside to this?

It's not the farther you get from New York and the East Coast the steadily more rural things become. So the "frontier" planets in a system like that should logically just be the ones with crap resources (Which I suppose COULD include sufficiently mild climate via being the right distance from the sun. But that is NEVER discussed.

In fairness, there are dozens of "planets" in Serenity, and it looks like the system of development doesn't go in a linear fashion, so you may have just that.

Who's gonna believe the escaped mental patient?

Have you looked at the Presidential race lately?

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

More seriously, it depends. Is Miranda the only secret she had? We don't know, neither did they. Did she have data that could be validated if she was allowed to go free? We don't know. As you note, the chain of events relies on them crew being backed against the wall with no other choice. If they hadn't, could River have provided enough data to bring them down? It's possible they could have even gone to Mr Universe with what she knew, but the Serenity crew is often none too bright. With time, could River's head be pieced together? She seems to recover some over the series. Quite a bit, really. What else could trigger some sort of secret buried in her headmeat? We don't know, the Alliance didn't know. It's possible they had other secrets as well.

But this is all speculation. Still, it's not automatically dumb.

 

[WolfThomas]

but the idea that the edge of the solar system (yeah, anyone who still thinks anything in Firefly was remotely "realistic" or should be held to any standard of realism, the entire thing was supposed to take place within a single solar system

I agree it's not very realistic. Though there is meant to be a number of ignited Gas Giants being used as stars.

Edit: Of course that isn't really realistic either. Uh. I just squint my brain at moments like that.

 

[Zetatrain]

I think the explanation was fine. While rage zombies are rather generic nowadays the movie came out 2005 and the only other movie or series I saw use rage zombies before Serenity was 28 days later. So while not exactly original the concept at that point wasn't done to death. I will agree that leaving them a mystery would have probably been the better option, but what we got in the movie was serviceable.

 

[Nazulu]

Huh... didn't expect that part to cop it. I really liked it myself. It had it's message and performed it well, though I agree the Reavers really didn't look like they had the intelligence to run a ship, but it didn't stand out that much.

I can see how some would want something more intricate, but I didn't expect it, and sometimes something simple is easier to build up.