What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

dragonswarrior

Also a Social Justice Warrior
Feb 13, 2012
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thaluikhain said:
dragonswarrior said:
Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.
I'd argue that for most people, it actually doesn't. There's this terrible fear that treating others more equally is going to be awful (for some reason), but most people aren't actually affected at all when it happens.
Ya know, I hear ya. I more meant a sort of personal internal difficulty/pain. I know for me personally, getting to the point where I could recognize my privilege was really difficult and painful. Totes worth it of course, and I don't think anyone should get any special treatment for that difficulty. But I don't think it's a bad thing to acknowledge that difficulty is there.

DemomanHusband said:
Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!" It's only when that same complaint gets shoved down everyone's throat as the complainer in question tries their hardest to make their voices heard without adequately explaining what is sexist about what they saw/played in the first place that people start claiming feminazi/SJW status. The very fact that many SJW types refuse to admit they might be wrong while at the same time refusing to believe anyone who disagrees with them might be right just digs their own coffin deeper. And before anyone claims that I don't see the irony, yes I do see it. However, at least #GG types and neutrals tend to understand the points they may be incorrect on, and don't tend to respond to criticism with outright insults or masking their toxic ideas as "polite advice."
*laughs* Well at least you see the irony. I do feel that you could switch every term in your post (From SJW to GG or GG to SJW) and leave everything else exactly the same and it would be just as valid. (Am I calling in valid or invalid?? YOU'LL NEVER KNOW!! *mad cackles*)

I think for a lot of Social Justice types, they either have personally experienced oppression, or are very aware of oppression. I also hear ya that you rarely jump to "You're a feminazi!" but from your post it also sounds like you have a preconceived prejudice against Social Justice types. I hear ya. There's a lot of oppression in the world, and sometimes we lose our temper because of it. That doesn't change the fact that you should try to listen with an open mind, and think about what's being said instead of just responding to it, or shutting down when it disagrees with your worldview.

Popido said:
Okay, I bite for once.

Equality is about bringing people up to the same level, not down.

Also, the motto is "Listen & Believe", not "Listen & Think". Thats closer to Half-Life's motto "Run. Think. Shoot. Live.".

Good thread otherwise.
*gives a look* Nnnnooooooo equality is about everyone gets treated the same. And it should really be equity. Which is basically everyone gets what they need/deserve. Or something. It's not really a concept I'm properly equipped to explain at the moment. Thank the gods for Google eh?

Anyway, the current system of privilege to select groups would literally be impossible if everyone was brought to that level. And plus, would you really want to have (for example) a rape culture that applied to both men AND women? It's bad enough it applies to one of those groups. But right now that rape culture doesn't effect men nearly so much as women is a privilege that men get to enjoy. (And no, I'm not saying you personally enjoy it, but you get to enjoy it not affecting you every day in the same way it effects women.) And that's the kind of thing that needs to stop.

And whose motto is "Listen&Believe" now? Are you implying that's my motto? Because I can assure you friend, it is not.

Doclector said:
]For one, I've always been fucked with. Maybe people didn't shit on me for the same reasons, but they still shit on me. Don't assume that just because I was born with balls that I was born privileged. And I have listened. I've done nothing but listen. That's why I've been doing all this shit. Because I kept hearing that I wasn't wanted around, so I just stayed the fuck out of the way, but now you want me to just sit here while everyone accuses me of shit I've never fucking done just because I play videogames. No, sorry, I'm not prepared to just accept that like it's fine, like it's "balance" or some shit. Like I'm supposed to feel like justice is being done when I can see people looking at me like I'm shit and laughing and telling jokes about me, like I'm supposed to feel fucking happy that someone could ruin my fucking life just because I disagreed with something they said.

I spent my entire childhood being insulted, beat the fuck up, made to be afraid and ashamed of who I am, I'm not fucking going back to that because of this. No fucking way.
You know something? I once felt exactly the same way. And if you were born cis male, than you were born with cis male privilege. It doesn't mean your life has been all roses and glory. It just means you have gotten to enjoy benefits that other folks who are not cis male don't get to enjoy.

At the end of the day you want to know something else? There are a lot of women and POC and LGBTQ nerds out there who have gone through the exact same thing PLUS having to deal with all the issues of being women, or POC, or LGBTQ AND being one of those groups in the nerd community. It's like a horrible triple whammy type of thing.

I'm also not trying to excuse the actions of folks who have treated you unfairly. I think I'd like to know their side of the story before condemning them, but if they have treated you poorly than fuck them. However, personal experience has taught me that when a privileged group feels put upon, it's more often because they wish to ignore uncomfortable truths than because they are actually being oppressed. *helpless shrugs*

As for going back to that shit? My friend, no one wants to beat you up for being a guy. Well... Okay, some people do but they're crazy. Maybe crazy for justifiable reasons, but still crazy. And no one is trying to make fun of you for being a nerd or gamer or however you want to identify, folks really really do just want you to listen, acknowledge your privilege where you have it, and be a decent person.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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Doclector said:
Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.
Okay, and I'm sick of being assumed to be a shit gamer, `not a real gamer` or doing it for attention just because I'm a girl, it's not nice to be told to fuck off just for using your REAL VOICE.
I've tried to tell you this before, everyone gets shit talked about them. The grass is NOT greener elsewhere.
You can find someone who will moan about any portion of any demographic of the human race.

Doclector said:
It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.
Okay, you do realise this is extremely unlikely, right?

Hell, I'm an evil feminist, right?
I have nothing against fat male gamers, or male gamers of any colour shape or variety.
I do have something against ASSHOLES. So just try not to be one of them.
If you're not deliberately setting out to upset and hurt people, you're cool by me.

[insert Evil Feminist stamp of approval]


Doclector said:
Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.
Who are `they`?
If you're talking about this gamergate crap, the wisest advice I can give to anyone would be to stay away from it, it's gotten too messy for anyone but the dedicated to give a crap about it.

YES. Just try and be a decent person.

Doclector said:
I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant
Ok, don't harrass people that's literally it.
 

Netrigan

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Sep 29, 2010
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Doclector said:
Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.
Actually, the problem seems to be with that sub-set of male gamers who think they're justified in harassing people. Or the sub-set of gamers who go around trying to justify and defend the harassment of certain people.

If you don't go around harassing people, then everyone is super-cool with you. No one is calling you an asshole for enjoying Grand Theft Auto 5. We might be calling Rockstar assholes for not putting Heists into GTA On-Line already, but this is not directed at you for enjoying the game.

Mind you, there are people calling you an asshole for liking Call of Duty, but those are largely Halo fans and we already know they're a bunch of assholes. Likewise, calling you a noob because you use cheap tactics in multiplayer, even though they're totally effective and they're pwning your ass with them... especially that camping bastard who has demonstrated his ability to use a weapon designed for exactly that purpose and purposely put in the game for exactly this purpose. And that fucking guy who keeps tea-bagging you, what a fucking asshole.
 

dragonswarrior

Also a Social Justice Warrior
Feb 13, 2012
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Cadi said:
dragonswarrior said:
There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.
You kinda forget that "male gamers" as a group are actually very diverse. No wonder they get a bit peeved when people assume they're all supremely privileged.
Diverse or not, if you're born cis male, you have cis male privilege. There is actually (to my knowlege anyway) no way around that.

You can be oppressed in other ways, and you can have other types of privilege, but there are some benefits that no matter what walk of life you come from you can only enjoy as a cis male.

And I say this as a white cis male. Who was born poor and has been emotionally and physically harassed/hurt due to my interests in life, and identifies as queer (with the sundry harassment that's brought along as well.)
 

Thaluikhain

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dragonswarrior said:
thaluikhain said:
dragonswarrior said:
Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.
I'd argue that for most people, it actually doesn't. There's this terrible fear that treating others more equally is going to be awful (for some reason), but most people aren't actually affected at all when it happens.
Ya know, I hear ya. I more meant a sort of personal internal difficulty/pain. I know for me personally, getting to the point where I could recognize my privilege was really difficult and painful. Totes worth it of course, and I don't think anyone should get any special treatment for that difficulty. But I don't think it's a bad thing to acknowledge that difficulty is there.
Fair enough...though I'd personally add the caveat that one can never be sure one has recognised all the ways they have privilege, or how much they get from the ones they do know they have.

Ichiro Oogami said:
Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.
Why not?
 

dragoongfa

It's the Krossopolypse
Apr 21, 2009
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thaluikhain said:
Excepting, of course, that all male gamers have, by definition, male privilege. Any and all other privileges may or may not be held by any given male gamer, they very often will have lots of legitimate complaints about depictions in games based on other factors, but they will have that privilege.


Let me guess, American?

Probably so because no other nation in the world has any fringe group that considers male privilege a thing anymore.

Egalitarianism is a thing now, there is no more male privilege, the last traditional vestiges of the Patriarchy are dieing out in the western world and the things that are left to do is for women to pick up the slack and share the same freaking responsibilities.

You don't know what I am saying?

I am Greek, in Greece the last major vestige of the 'patriarchy' is this:

Only men are subjected to mandatory conscription in the military. I served an year, safeguarding this hole's borders, getting into a couple of hairy situations with drug traffickers at the process. I was a conscript yet it was my responsibility to serve the society I am part in.

I also had several women who were my superior officers, career military women who graduated from one of the best military academies of the world, I respected them and saluted them the same fraking way I did with the men who outnumbered them 5 to 1. You know something? They were ashamed, not because they were surrounded by men, but because women did not want to share the fucking responsibilities with the men.

These women were real feminists, serving the nation next to men who sacrificed an year of their lives in order to safeguard a nation. They wanted women to be the equals to men and the fucking acted like it.

You speak of male privilege, they spoke of female responsibilities.

Get on with the times and see how the world functions.

Signed:

A Greek who served his nation for an year, taking orders from career military women without question and objection.
 

Doclector

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Aug 22, 2009
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dragonswarrior said:
thaluikhain said:
dragonswarrior said:
Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.
I'd argue that for most people, it actually doesn't. There's this terrible fear that treating others more equally is going to be awful (for some reason), but most people aren't actually affected at all when it happens.
Ya know, I hear ya. I more meant a sort of personal internal difficulty/pain. I know for me personally, getting to the point where I could recognize my privilege was really difficult and painful. Totes worth it of course, and I don't think anyone should get any special treatment for that difficulty. But I don't think it's a bad thing to acknowledge that difficulty is there.

DemomanHusband said:
Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!" It's only when that same complaint gets shoved down everyone's throat as the complainer in question tries their hardest to make their voices heard without adequately explaining what is sexist about what they saw/played in the first place that people start claiming feminazi/SJW status. The very fact that many SJW types refuse to admit they might be wrong while at the same time refusing to believe anyone who disagrees with them might be right just digs their own coffin deeper. And before anyone claims that I don't see the irony, yes I do see it. However, at least #GG types and neutrals tend to understand the points they may be incorrect on, and don't tend to respond to criticism with outright insults or masking their toxic ideas as "polite advice."
*laughs* Well at least you see the irony. I do feel that you could switch every term in your post (From SJW to GG or GG to SJW) and leave everything else exactly the same and it would be just as valid. (Am I calling in valid or invalid?? YOU'LL NEVER KNOW!! *mad cackles*)

I think for a lot of Social Justice types, they either have personally experienced oppression, or are very aware of oppression. I also hear ya that you rarely jump to "You're a feminazi!" but from your post it also sounds like you have a preconceived prejudice against Social Justice types. I hear ya. There's a lot of oppression in the world, and sometimes we lose our temper because of it. That doesn't change the fact that you should try to listen with an open mind, and think about what's being said instead of just responding to it, or shutting down when it disagrees with your worldview.

Popido said:
Okay, I bite for once.

Equality is about bringing people up to the same level, not down.

Also, the motto is "Listen & Believe", not "Listen & Think". Thats closer to Half-Life's motto "Run. Think. Shoot. Live.".

Good thread otherwise.
*gives a look* Nnnnooooooo equality is about everyone gets treated the same. And it should really be equity. Which is basically everyone gets what they need/deserve. Or something. It's not really a concept I'm properly equipped to explain at the moment. Thank the gods for Google eh?

Anyway, the current system of privilege to select groups would literally be impossible if everyone was brought to that level. And plus, would you really want to have (for example) a rape culture that applied to both men AND women? It's bad enough it applies to one of those groups. But right now that rape culture doesn't effect men nearly so much as women is a privilege that men get to enjoy. (And no, I'm not saying you personally enjoy it, but you get to enjoy it not affecting you every day in the same way it effects women.) And that's the kind of thing that needs to stop.

And whose motto is "Listen&Believe" now? Are you implying that's my motto? Because I can assure you friend, it is not.

Doclector said:
]For one, I've always been fucked with. Maybe people didn't shit on me for the same reasons, but they still shit on me. Don't assume that just because I was born with balls that I was born privileged. And I have listened. I've done nothing but listen. That's why I've been doing all this shit. Because I kept hearing that I wasn't wanted around, so I just stayed the fuck out of the way, but now you want me to just sit here while everyone accuses me of shit I've never fucking done just because I play videogames. No, sorry, I'm not prepared to just accept that like it's fine, like it's "balance" or some shit. Like I'm supposed to feel like justice is being done when I can see people looking at me like I'm shit and laughing and telling jokes about me, like I'm supposed to feel fucking happy that someone could ruin my fucking life just because I disagreed with something they said.

I spent my entire childhood being insulted, beat the fuck up, made to be afraid and ashamed of who I am, I'm not fucking going back to that because of this. No fucking way.
You know something? I once felt exactly the same way. And if you were born cis male, than you were born with cis male privilege. It doesn't mean your life has been all roses and glory. It just means you have gotten to enjoy benefits that other folks who are not cis male don't get to enjoy.

At the end of the day you want to know something else? There are a lot of women and POC and LGBTQ nerds out there who have gone through the exact same thing PLUS having to deal with all the issues of being women, or POC, or LGBTQ AND being one of those groups in the nerd community. It's like a horrible triple whammy type of thing.

I'm also not trying to excuse the actions of folks who have treated you unfairly. I think I'd like to know their side of the story before condemning them, but if they have treated you poorly than fuck them. However, personal experience has taught me that when a privileged group feels put upon, it's more often because they wish to ignore uncomfortable truths than because they are actually being oppressed. *helpless shrugs*

As for going back to that shit? My friend, no one wants to beat you up for being a guy. Well... Okay, some people do but they're crazy. Maybe crazy for justifiable reasons, but still crazy. And no one is trying to make fun of you for being a nerd or gamer or however you want to identify, folks really really do just want you to listen, acknowledge your privilege where you have it, and be a decent person.
I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.
 

Ichiro Oogami

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The problem with sniffing out who is "privileged" is that it sniffs out who it is okay to deride and belittle and silence because "They've had it so good, amirite? It should be okay to treat them like crap due to their demographic characteristics. For equality."

Justice and right simply becomes a matter of who you are, not what you do.

Likewise, conservative Christians were offended by the content of a lot of games, yet the gaming press didn't indulge them when the conservatives sought to regulate it. But when self-appointed fighters for equality do the same thing? All of a sudden, it is imperative that game content be regulated. The gaming press now believes that games with white male protagonists or attractive, agreeable women are ruining the moral fabric of society.

So it's not because either the conservatives or the equality activists tried to censor games, but because the conservatives were "privileged," therefore they were the bad guys, and the equality activists were "not privileged," therefore they are the good guys.
 

Nimcha

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dragoongfa said:
If ranting on the Internet is a mark of an undecent person then the entirety of the Internet are aholes.
I think you may be on to something here...

:D
 

DemomanHusband

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thaluikhain said:
DemomanHusband said:
Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!"
No, it's more often rape and death threats.

Less flippantly, what's the instinctive response to being called out on bad behaviour? That something they've long seen as perfectly fine is actually a problem?

Nobody enjoys having that pointed out.
Of course no one enjoys it, but the only people I've seen who instinctively react badly are the SJW types. Average feminists and equality minded folks are fine, however. I've met plenty of people like that who are more than willing to critically examine their own ideals and draw their own conclusions from their research. Social Justice Warriors, however, do not. They insult anyone who does not fully agree with them, feel the need to come up with (rather funny, actually) insults such as "shitlord" in a feeble attempt to hurt feelings, and generally do nothing more than, well, Listen and Believe. They also resort to the very doxxing tactics that they supposedly rally against time and again.

Captcha: Wash whites separately
Okay now I'm laughing, good lord.
 

Ichiro Oogami

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thaluikhain said:
Ichiro Oogami said:
Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.
Why not?
Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.

Like I said before, sniffing out who is "privileged" is just another way to rationalize bashing a demographic group while cloaking it in public morals.

That's why not.
 

Thaluikhain

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Doclector said:
I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.
Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege. This, of course, overlooks the existence of black women.

Or, to look at it another way, why are games under threat by treating women more equally? Why should men like yourself be catered to, largely to the exclusion of women? That is privilege.

Ichiro Oogami said:
Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.
Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.
 

Doclector

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thaluikhain said:
Doclector said:
I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.
Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege. This, of course, overlooks the existence of black women.

Or, to look at it another way, why are games under threat by treating women more equally? Why should men like yourself be catered to, largely to the exclusion of women? That is privilege.
It's not. It isn't under threat because of that. It's under threat because people keep pushing the angle that it's okay to treat male gamers like shit because some of them are assholes.
 

kyp275

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dragoongfa said:
/salute

Yea, I'd like to see some of these people actually put in some time in the service. They want to talk about privilege? how about the privilege where they're the fucking 99% who's never had to spent a single day in a uniform in service of something else other than their armchair philosophy pursuit.

Times like this is when I wish we still have the draft, I'd like to see these people spend a year in the shitholes of Afghanistan and then try to talk about the fucking male privilege.
 

CriminalScum

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I honestly don't see why you'd give the smallest fuck what some cunts who have absolutely no significance in your life think about you. Why do any of us even pay attention to this type of shit? Hell, I don't even know what the hell happened at Gamersgate, or with Zoe what's her fuck, or with any of this shit that's apparently hit the fan, and you know what? I'm no worse for it, I can tell you that much. Just don't pay any attention to it, because it really doesn't matter what some self-important **** thinks about you, or anyone else that they don't even know.
 

Erttheking

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Ichiro Oogami said:
thaluikhain said:
Ichiro Oogami said:
Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.
Why not?
Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.

Like I said before, sniffing out who is "privileged" is just another way to rationalize bashing a demographic group while cloaking it in public morals.

That's why not.
Ok look. I don't think people understand what people say when they mean privileged. I myself had to go through the phase where I got offended at the phrase because I thought it was undermining the struggle I had to go through with depression. But that's not what it means. If you're privileged, that just means that there are certain problems you'll never have to deal with.

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed, have a next to none chance of being raped, have more job opportunities, have more representation in media, won't be shamed for having sex, are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do, will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body, won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you, etc etc etc.

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!