What is a Mary Sue to you?

ObsidianJones

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She overpowered Kylo Ren for the same reason Luke overpowered his father; she was angry and Ren wasn't trying to kill her. Plus, you know, gut wound. That would kill anyone's fighting efficacy. Plus, Rey already knows how to fight: you don't grow up on a lawless pit like Jakku and not learn to defend yourself.
Oh, I'm talking about this scene.

It was too early in the series for this. Luke had training, instruction on how to use the force, and in the first movie all he did was deflect maybe three practice bolts from a remote and have Obi-Wan help him use the force to shoot torpedoes into the Death Star.

Rey straight up bullied Ren in mind control. Pushed him back. With all the training Ren had, it was just "Nope, Better. Sorry, not sorry. Kthx"
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I mean, Cad Bane held off two and a half Jedi masters for an impressively long time, and he didn't even have powers. All you need is willpower
Plus, dark side seems to be really bad at the mental side of things in general.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Can't tell if this is a serious defense of the character or an indictment of those movies.
Discussions like this have led me to believe my theater got an early version of the movie that diverged significantly from what everybody else watched.
I hear things like "she's suddenly an ace pilot out of nowhere" but saw a combat scene where she and Finn barely manage to defeat two mook ships that weren't trying to kill them while taking significant damage to the Falcon and the spaceport it was lifting off from
And it's like that for damn near every "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument I've come across.
It's a weird sort of cognitive dissonance.
 

Trunkage

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I think the turning point for most people is that Rey (within two seconds of feeling the force) was able to learn how to harness it, redirect it, and overpower an extremely powerful Force User that was trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke.
How much training did Luke get before a took on a whole Death Star? Inside and out? Maybe a day?

Sure, Rey does training less but that doesn’t make Luke’s training version good
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Why? This is an unsafe assumption that people don't change.

A huge amount of story time has passed since Han was first introduced. Han Solo enters ep.4 as cynical smuggler, and then he joins a rebellion where he saw heroism and himself acted heroically, saw amazing force users, won a huge victory against the odds. Why should that not temper his cynicism and teach him that people like Rey - as also himself and Luke before - have the capacity to achieve great and good things? Outside the films, he has had a child and decades have passed. Although his son turned bad why might that not still give him a "fatherly" perspective he might apply to Rey? Why might he not feel his life has gone astray after his son's fall and his return to smuggling, and sees in Rey an opportunity to bring back his best days? And so on.

Leia is either force sensitive or user, if the level of her training is unclear. She can surely sense Rey and her potential.



I'm not going to deny that ep7 hustles through giving Rey huge powers too quickly. But I think that's a convenience because JJ Abrams couldn't be bothered with development: he just wanted to hustle through to the big showdown, and didn't have an ageing Jedi master around to take on the duty of setpiece lightsaber duel as George Lucas did for Star Wars.

One can rationalise it to an extent - although I don't find the rationale entirely convincing. Rey may not be force trained, but she is in fighting. Kylo Ren has taken a serious abdominal wound, and (by my watching) appears to be more interested in converting her than killing her. He doesn't really seem to use his force powers much, if it all (perhaps he's using them to hold his intestines in). He's also much younger, inexperienced and temperamentally unstable compared to Darth Vader, so likely a lesser opponent.
To me this all sounds like rationalization. Everyone and everything has been conveniently written into such corners so as to awe at Rey, because she's so awesome at everything and better at whatever anybody else already specializes and is recognized for. Whether you can rationalize her skillset or not the fact remains that the character 1) must always be the center of the attention and 2) must always be constantly complimented and encouraged.

People either forget or choose to ignore that the concept of "Mary Sue" was created by a woman, Paula Smith, as a parody of low-hanging, thinly-veiled condescension and pandering to women in media. The concept also goes hand in hand with fanfiction: her Mary Sue was inserted into Star Trek as "the youngest lieutenant in Starfleet, 15 and a half years old", just as Rey was inserted into Star Wars, as far as I'm concerned.
 
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How much training did Luke get before a took on a whole Death Star? Inside and out? Maybe a day?
A big difference with Luke is that he didn't take on the Death Star alone. He wasn't even the first shot at the exhaust port, or the second. The rebels didn't bend over backwards and sing his praises as their heroic savior.

That's aside from line references that he had spent time at home as a recreational flyer, or cut scenes showing his aptitude test for the X-Wing.

This is wholly in contrast to Rey. Rey makes it clear that she had never spent even a moment flying before the first movie. Yet she's able to pilot the Millenium Falcon into a situation analogous to when the gang was escaping the first Death Star and were pursued by Tie Fighters. She manages to attain the same results as Chewbacca, who'd been implied (along with Han) to be experienced in piloting, especially with the Millenium Falcon.

I dislike these kinds of discussions. It's the same tier as power level and "who would win" arguments. Just boring and pointless. But I dislike a bad argument when I see it.

The discussion which should happen is that the sequels were poorly written overall. Little snippets and clues in the dialogue were laid out in the classic movies to build up the world and justify character abilities at some level. The sequels do not adhere to this kind of basic adherence to structure in their scriptwriting. Literally one dialogue tweak could turn the above discussion on its head: instead of Rey saying "I've never flown before", she could have said "I'd only ever flown in [that slave master guy's] simulator that he has for the smugglers, when he wasn't looking. The real thing is awesome!" Or somesuch. I'm not a professional scriptwriter. Neither were the professional scriptwriters for that movie.
 

Trunkage

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A big difference with Luke is that he didn't take on the Death Star alone. He wasn't even the first shot at the exhaust port, or the second. The rebels didn't bend over backwards and sing his praises as their heroic savior.

That's aside from line references that he had spent time at home as a recreational flyer, or cut scenes showing his aptitude test for the X-Wing.

This is wholly in contrast to Rey. Rey makes it clear that she had never spent even a moment flying before the first movie. Yet she's able to pilot the Millenium Falcon into a situation analogous to when the gang was escaping the first Death Star and were pursued by Tie Fighters. She manages to attain the same results as Chewbacca, who'd been implied (along with Han) to be experienced in piloting, especially with the Millenium Falcon.

I dislike these kinds of discussions. It's the same tier as power level and "who would win" arguments. Just boring and pointless. But I dislike a bad argument when I see it.

The discussion which should happen is that the sequels were poorly written overall. Little snippets and clues in the dialogue were laid out in the classic movies to build up the world and justify character abilities at some level. The sequels do not adhere to this kind of basic adherence to structure in their scriptwriting. Literally one dialogue tweak could turn the above discussion on its head: instead of Rey saying "I've never flown before", she could have said "I'd only ever flown in [that slave master guy's] simulator that he has for the smugglers, when he wasn't looking. The real thing is awesome!" Or somesuch. I'm not a professional scriptwriter. Neither were the professional scriptwriters for that movie.
Wait... so since she didn’t specifically joke about Wamp rats, which is the only credible comment Luke says (not does) about flying, she clearly doesn’t have a flying pedigree. She’s a mechanic, isn’t she? And a scavenger? If she finds and repairs a ship, what do you think she’s going to do. Not mess around with the control to at least test

Yes, Luke says T-14 are similar to X-wings, right before hoping in one. I don’t believe a word of that, because that’s utter plot contrivance. It would be like comparing a crop duster to a 747. Boeing specifically did it’s disastrous Max line of airplanes because it would cost too much for airlines to retrain pilots to use a new console. And I can’t imagine Boeing was willing to change the console that much, but it was still too hard for pilots to transfer over. Pretending a skimmer is similar to a space craft is just ridiculous. How many times did he say he flew into space? Because the exact number is zero. So he had little to no experience. If you’re willing to believe the nonsense with Luke, it should be easy to believe Rey can do it. Or ratherL both are pretty unbelievable.

Sorry, what’s going on with the saviour thing? Are we talking about when Rey meets Leia?

My point is that all Star Wars is poorly written. We just accepted it probably because the effects looked cool or we were little. I could even say ANH was better written than AFA. It doesn’t not reach well written. You have a slap stick routine of characters running around a Death Star that is similar to a looney tunes cartoon, a Han who shoots first which is a character trait that never matters again, an apparently menacing bad guy who you realise was not menancing until you see Rogue One, a completely ineffectual interrogations scene (they sold this better in Empire. Or even in Force Awakens.) They blew up a planet and pretended I should care about it. And Luke’s mentor tries his hardest to get Luke captured. Also, wasn’t he meant to protect Luke but sends him running around a Death Star? He spent all of Luke’s life protecting him but immediately throws him to the wolves. Goddam Obi wan is an idiot. Or...as I’ve already pointed out, poorly written
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Wait... so since she didn’t specifically joke about Wamp rats, which is the only credible comment Luke says (not does) about flying, she clearly doesn’t have a flying pedigree. She’s a mechanic, isn’t she? And a scavenger? If she finds and repairs a ship, what do you think she’s going to do. Not mess around with the control to at least test
Not to mention she literally has a line afterward where she tells Finn that she's flown before, just not in space.

Which brings me back to my "did my theater and BluRay copy have a manufacturing defect because we didn't watch the same movie" argument.
 

happyninja42

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Not to mention she literally has a line afterward where she tells Finn that she's flown before, just not in space.

Which brings me back to my "did my theater and BluRay copy have a manufacturing defect because we didn't watch the same movie" argument.
Not to mention the fact that from the very beginning of the franchise in a New Hope, they establish that part of being strong with the Force, is to let it flow through you. Ben flat out says this to Luke when he's doing the deflection training.

"Remember a Jedi can feel the Force, FLOWING through him!"
Luke: "You mean it CONTROLS YOUR ACTIONS?"
Ben: "PARTIALLY. But it also obeys your commands."

This very fact, is why Luke, without any actual melee training, or blind fighting training was able to, after just a handful of errors, perfectly predict and block a series of blaster shots on day 1 of training. The whole point of the Force philosophy is that if you let go of your conscious self, and act on instinct (the very words Ben uses to try and get Luke to start using the Force), you can accomplish amazing things. And we see this time and time again in the various iterations of the franchise. We see Ezra instinctively using Force Leap to escape the troopers in the first episode, which is what makes Kanen notice him to start training him. We see him instinctively use Mind Control in a later episode when he accidentally taps into the Dark side. Hell CHILD Anakin regularly takes part in insanely fast racing events, and the Jedi clearly indicate the reason he's so good, is he is unconsciously tapping into the Force to give him an edge. And tons of other examples from the franchise. I mean hell Baby Yoda is able to Force Heal someone and he's established to be a BABY! We see Luke send Leia a Force Tweet without any training, or indication that it was possible, we saw him use the Force to move an object to him to get his lightsaber, despite any indication up to that point he knew it was something he could do. So it's hardly without precedent for a fledgling Force user to excel at activities that they don't have practical experience in, or are good at something BECAUSE they are instinctively using the Force. Or pull new abilities out of their ass Because The Force.

So the idea that a woman who is established to have some melee skills due to living on the streets, being able to temporarily out perform a guy who isn't trying to kill her anyway, suffering from a critical gut wound from a boltcaster (a weapon that is established to normally FLING TARGETS BACK 40 FEET AND EXPLODE) and suffering emotional instability from patricide....yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable for her to be able, at the climax of a film, as the protagonist, to get the upper hand on the antagonist and win. It's hardly a unique situation to Rey, or even the Star Wars franchise itself.

They changed the phrasing in Force Awakens with Rey, but the "let the Force flow through you" is reinforced through Maz Kanada's line about "let it in." Stop resisting it's influence and harness it. The Force is a HUGE hand wavey magical plot wand that has been used, for DECADES to justify all kinds of things that in other settings would be problems, but "It's the Force, I don't have to explain shit." Is an entirely valid reason in Star Wars.

Now I do think it's a little fuzzy about her piloting skills, based on the lack of indication to it. The line you are referring to, about where she tells Finn that she's flown before, but not in space, was that during the part where they were both talking really fast to each other in an excited manner, right after escaping the tie fighters? If so, then I can forgive people missing it, because it is very hard to follow both dialogue lines when they are going at the same time. So that's not the best time to convey a bit of information. Though I personally don't care too much. But, if one line of dialogue is good enough to establish Luke as being Fighter Pilot Ready in New Hope, I don't see what the issue is with it being established with the same level of detail with Rey. It would be better to show not tell, but they didn't show with Luke either so...*shrugs*

My preferred way of dealing with this, would've been a single quick exchange of dialogue when she's going to get her first set of meal rations. Where that guy says something like "Hey I need you to fly that *Insert Ship Name* over to the scrapyard in *Insert Town Name*" Rey: *Looks annoyed and frustrated* "Again? I just flew one of your scrapheaps over there yesterday! You know it's a hard walk to get back here from there!" Dude: "I don't care, I mean if you don't want your rations" *pulls away the food* Rey: *slapping her hand down on the food* "No no, FINE. I'll fly that T-69 Floopstooper over to Yaboo Noknok after I eat, ok?" Dude: "Deal, now get out of here"

That would, at the very least establish it as much as they did in New Hope. They did SAY he was at least passably skilled at piloting on 3 occasions that I can think of in New Hope. Ben comments about "And I hear your something of a pilot yourself." When talking about Anakin's piloting skills. Han mocks Luke in the cantina scene when they are discussing prices "10,000?! We can almost buy our own ship for that!" Han: "And who's gonna fly it kid? You?!" Luke:"You bet I could I'm not such a bad pilot myself!" And then the "I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home" All 3 lines TELL us, but don't SHOW us that Luke is a good pilot, and then the first time we see him actually fly, is in a combat situation in the middle of a military assault on a fortified base.

Whereas Rey, is SHOWN to have skills at flying. But, I mean do you all literally need to have it spelled out to you? You are joining her story 19ish years into her life, where she has clearly had to learn a large set of skills to survive in a hostile environment, to make herself useful. They show that she is good at flying, with just as much lead up as they had for Anakin and his pod racing. I've just, I've never understood this problem, the film provides, at the earliest opportunity, visual proof of her abilities, and people act like they need to see her fucking pilot's certification papers and license before they will accept that she is capable of doing ANYTHING!

Also, I've never really seen a problem with the idea of people just being knowledgeable in how to fly starships. They are portrayed as being as ubiquitous as cars, so the idea that random people just know how to fly them isn't weird. I mean hell, 2 of my friends growing up were huge car junkies, and they had tricked out cars, and were quite good at racing and speed driving. But you wouldn't know it from looking at them, because it's not like they came with a sign over their head that said "COMPETENT AT COMPETITIVE DRIVING"

When I first saw Rey mucking about in a crashed ship, and then showing up at a salvage/scrap yard, and showing clear knowledge about machine and vehicles, my brain just said "Oh, ok, she's a gearhead." Which pretty much just assumes you are above average skilled in vehicle operation and maintenance, because that's what that Trope almost always conveys. It's very strange for people who are that knowledgeable about the workings of a vehicle, to be clueless about the operation of it. They are, in my personal experience, almost one in the same.

So yeah, I don't see any real issue with Rey's implied skills in Force Awakens. Could it have been better established with a few more lines of dialogue? Maybe, but it's not like they put a lot of work into establishing Luke's credentials either, and everyone was fine with it.
 

Thaluikhain

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They did SAY he was at least passably skilled at piloting on 3 occasions that I can think of in New Hope.
Before the Death Star attack he meets another pilot he knows and the other guy says he's a good pilot, IIRC.

Though, Luke was explicitly using the Force in the end of a New Hope, and it was a big deal, whereas Rey is flying a roughed up ship and aiming guns backward (or something, been a bit since I saw it) and stuff just happens. But, I think that that's The Force Awakens being not as good as A New Hope, rather than her being a Mary Sue and him not. There's bad bits in that film that don't involve her, after all.
 

happyninja42

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Before the Death Star attack he meets another pilot he knows and the other guy says he's a good pilot, IIRC.
So? That's still not SHOWING us that Luke has piloting skills. That just means he knows a pilot. See, this is the problem I have with this Luke/Rey comparison. Very often people are more than happy to let indications of Luke's abilities, simply be inferred by the subtext, but when the same things are done with Rey, they lose their shit and decry Mary Sue, because we weren't shown her degree in *whatever they are whining about*. *disclaimer* I am not referring to you specifically, but the fandom as a whole.

At NO point prior to Death Star, are we SHOWN that Luke is a good pilot, or a good gunner. We are only ever TOLD he is. It's only at the climax of the film, that we see him suddenly start performing well, and doing things that nobody should do (huh, a protagonist pulling a magic macguffin out of their ass at the climax of a film, to defeat a superior foe...where have I heard that before...hmm).

And again, I'm FINE with this fact, I don't have a problem with just accepting a film telling me "this person has these skills that they learned off screen", either by lines of dialogue (like with Luke), or with them just doing something. I mean, they never SHOWED us that Luke is good with droid repair and mechanics, but does anyone call bullshit when Luke is working on R2 and 3PO when he first bought them? No, because it's just assumed to be something he knows, and nobody had an issue with that.

But when Rey is SHOWN to have skills, by her, you know, doing them, people call bullshit, because they didn't have some setup for it. Maybe it's because I've played the various Star Wars roleplaying games, and am so familiar with the archetype that Farmboy Luke established, that I just don't see the problem. Luke, and Rey after him, and Kid Anakin too now that I think of it, are what are commonly called a Fringer in Star Wars gaming. It's basically a Frontier Colonist trope, the rugged expansionist, like the old wagon train settlers from Old West fame. People who are expected to be skilled at a wide range of talents, because they have only themselves to rely on. So they know how to hunt, to cook, to sew damaged clothes, to track, to repair their wagons, to drive their wagons, animal husbandry, and a laundry list of other skills. Fringers are Star Wars equivalent of that. And the literal poster boy that they use for that in the books, the character image on the page of the character writeup for Fringer, is almost always Farmboy Luke. She lives in a harsh environment, has to learn to adapt to survive, and she works in a shipyard/salvage location. Why is it such a huge logical hurdle for people to think she knows how to use the things she spends every waking moment of her life working with?
 
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So? That's still not SHOWING us that Luke has piloting skills. That just means he knows a pilot. See, this is the problem I have with this Luke/Rey comparison. Very often people are more than happy to let indications of Luke's abilities, simply be inferred by the subtext, but when the same things are done with Rey, they lose their shit and decry Mary Sue, because we weren't shown her degree in *whatever they are whining about*. At NO point prior to Death Star, are we SHOWN that Luke is a good pilot, or a good gunner. We are only ever TOLD he is. It's only at the climax of the film, that we see him suddenly start performing well, and doing things that nobody should do (huh, a protagonist pulling a magic macguffin out of their ass at the climax of a film, to defeat a superior foe...where have I heard that before...hmm).

And again, I'm FINE with this fact, I don't have a problem with just accepting a film telling me "this person has these skills that they learned off screen", either by lines of dialogue (like with Luke), or with them just doing something. I mean, they never SHOWED us that Luke is good with droid repair and mechanics, but does anyone call bullshit when Luke is working on R2 and 3PO when he first bought them? No, because it's just assumed to be something he knows, and nobody had an issue with that.

But when Rey is SHOWN to have skills, by her, you know, doing them, people call bullshit, because they didn't have some setup for it. Maybe it's because I've played the various Star Wars roleplaying games, and am so familiar with the archetype that Farmboy Luke established, that I just don't see the problem. Luke, and Rey after him, and Kid Anakin too now that I think of it, are what are commonly called a Fringer in Star Wars gaming. It's basically a Frontier Colonist trope, the rugged expansionist, like the old wagon train settlers from Old West fame. People who are expected to be skilled at a wide range of talents, because they have only themselves to rely on. So they know how to hunt, to cook, to sew damaged clothes, to track, to repair their wagons, to drive their wagons, animal husbandry, and a laundry list of other skills. Fringers are Star Wars equivalent of that. And the literal poster boy that they use for that in the books, the character image on the page of the character writeup for Fringer, is almost always Farmboy Luke. She lives in a harsh environment, has to learn to adapt to survive, and she works in a shipyard/salvage location. Why is it such a huge logical hurdle for people to think she knows how to use the things she spends every waking moment of her life working with?
All of this is why I tend to avoid the Star Wars fandom. Thank you for pointing out this bullshit. Once I see the the final season of Clone Wars, I am 1000% done.
 

SilentPony

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The image is fine with one exception. A Mary Sue has no meaningful flaws for no good reason. A female character can be well written, good at everything she tries her hand at and flawless, provided the writing justifies it. Whether or not it succeeds in this is another matter.

That said, the TVTropes page probably does a better job of explaining this rather nebulous topic than any of us can in a single post.
I would add the flaws have to be actually, well, flaws. Too often writers give their characters "flaws" like too big of boobs, or they're too popular, or they're kinda forgetful when it comes to pasta names.
Like oh no I'm totally blind to that fact my super hot, hung, rich and charismatic best friend totally has a thing for me, guess Im flawed.
 
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I would add the flaws have to be actually, well, flaws. Too often writers give their characters "flaws" like too big of boobs, or they're too popular, or they're kinda forgetful when it comes to pasta names.
Like oh no I'm totally blind to that fact my super hot, hung, rich and charismatic best friend totally has a thing for me, guess Im flawed.
You just described 98% of anime in the shounen/shojo genre. Seinen (a sub-genre meant for adults ages 18-35) surprisingly have a lot less of this by comparison.
 

happyninja42

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All of this is why I tend to avoid the Star Wars fandom. Thank you for pointing out this bullshit. Once I see the the final season of Clone Wars, I am 1000% done.
Done with the franchise or the fandom? Because those are different things. I'd hate to make you stop watching the franchise just because some fans act a little weird about stuff. I mean if you just genuinely don't like the franchise, that's fine, I'm certainly not a fan of all of it's content.
 

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Done with the franchise or the fandom?
Both. I was never that huge in to Star War. I rarely ever bothered with the EU before and Disney made all of it non-canon. I dibbled and dabbled with some of the games, but that is it. The franchise is more so my case, because there is nothing left for me there. The fandom seems to care more about tearing each other apart, than celebrating things Star Wars. I know some stuff has calmed down, but the hatred or over defense of the new trilogy has gotten way out of hand. Disney holds, the most responsibilities of course, but the fandom have no one to blame but themselves too. For years you had people complaining about the prequel trilogy being too different. You get TFA which is a remake of New Hope (people were lapping it up only to make that remake complaint later), Last Jedi is Empire Strikes Back (though it does enough different which is why I enjoy it. Casino scene aside.), and Rise of Skywalker (which is a remake/retcon heavy Return of the Jedi) pleased almost no one. All of a sudden these fans want Lucas back, after mocking him and deriding. That is what you fucking get and deserve. I am not a big defender of Lucas, even as teenager when the prequel trilogy was finishing up, the fandom went way too far in harassing the staff and directors. A lesson, a good amount (though not all), still has not learned.

I am a man who prefers an all variety of different tastes. If watch the same type of crap over and over, I get bored quickly. It's why avoid most shounen anime like the plague once Naruto and Bleach first got big.
 
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happyninja42

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Both. I was never that huge in to Star War. I rarely ever bothered with the EU before and Disney made all of it non-canon. I dibbled and dabbled with some of the games, but that is it. The franchise is more so my case, because there is nothing left for me there. The fandom seems to care more about tearing each other apart, than celebrating things Star Wars. I know some stuff has calmed down, but the hatred or over defense of the new trilogy has gotten way out of the fan. Disney holds, the most responsibilities of course, but the fandom have no one to blame but themselves too. For years you had people complaining about the prequel trilogy being too different. You get TFA which is a remake of New Hope (people were lapping it up only to make that remake complaint later), Last Jedi is Empire Strikes Back (though it does enough different which is why I enjoy it. Casino scene aside.), and Rise of Skywalker (which is a remake/retcon heavy Return of the Jedi) pleased almost no one. All of a sudden these fans want Lucas back, after mocking him and deriding. That is what you fucking get and deserve. I am not a big defender of Lucas, even as teenager when the prequel trilogy was finishing up, the fandom went way too far in harassing the staff and directors. A lesson, a good amount (though not all), still has not learned.
Yeah I can't really fault you there. I've become disenfranchised with nerdom over the years, as I've watched people become WAY too invested in this stuff. I do consider myself a Star Wars fan, as I grew up watching the films and playing with the toys, and one of my earliest childhood memories is seeing Return of the Jedi in theaters, and the fan reaction when Luke first ignited his lightsaber, and the music swelled. I can usually quote the original trilogy verbatim if I'm watching it for scene and tone cues (though it's been a few decades so I might be rusty), and I've played a lot of the games, both video and table top. But I've never been the kind of fan to memorize ship schematics and planet biomes, and Imperial military heirarchy. Because that stuff is just not important to me. But I am still open to the franchise in general, on a case by case basis of product.

I am a man who prefers an all vairety of different tastes. If watch the same type of crap over and over, I get bored quickly. It's why avoid most shounen anime like plauge once Naruto and Bleach first got big.
Yeah, I never got into Naruto, but I REALLY enjoyed Bleach when it first came out, until the arc about...whatever her name was (the woman who lost her death powers when they transferred to Ichigo), being captured by the Soul Society. Prior to that, when the focus of the show was on actually being these guardians against the restless dead, and you had episodes that were some really cool, and disturbing, and hauntingly sad ghost stories, overlaid with their real life problems, i LOVED that shit. Then...it became a fighting tournament thing, and I just stopped caring.
 

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So? That's still not SHOWING us that Luke has piloting skills. That just means he knows a pilot. See, this is the problem I have with this Luke/Rey comparison. Very often people are more than happy to let indications of Luke's abilities, simply be inferred by the subtext, but when the same things are done with Rey, they lose their shit and decry Mary Sue, because we weren't shown her degree in *whatever they are whining about*. *disclaimer* I am not referring to you specifically, but the fandom as a whole.

At NO point prior to Death Star, are we SHOWN that Luke is a good pilot, or a good gunner. We are only ever TOLD he is. It's only at the climax of the film, that we see him suddenly start performing well, and doing things that nobody should do (huh, a protagonist pulling a magic macguffin out of their ass at the climax of a film, to defeat a superior foe...where have I heard that before...hmm).

And again, I'm FINE with this fact, I don't have a problem with just accepting a film telling me "this person has these skills that they learned off screen", either by lines of dialogue (like with Luke), or with them just doing something. I mean, they never SHOWED us that Luke is good with droid repair and mechanics, but does anyone call bullshit when Luke is working on R2 and 3PO when he first bought them? No, because it's just assumed to be something he knows, and nobody had an issue with that.

But when Rey is SHOWN to have skills, by her, you know, doing them, people call bullshit, because they didn't have some setup for it. Maybe it's because I've played the various Star Wars roleplaying games, and am so familiar with the archetype that Farmboy Luke established, that I just don't see the problem. Luke, and Rey after him, and Kid Anakin too now that I think of it, are what are commonly called a Fringer in Star Wars gaming. It's basically a Frontier Colonist trope, the rugged expansionist, like the old wagon train settlers from Old West fame. People who are expected to be skilled at a wide range of talents, because they have only themselves to rely on. So they know how to hunt, to cook, to sew damaged clothes, to track, to repair their wagons, to drive their wagons, animal husbandry, and a laundry list of other skills. Fringers are Star Wars equivalent of that. And the literal poster boy that they use for that in the books, the character image on the page of the character writeup for Fringer, is almost always Farmboy Luke. She lives in a harsh environment, has to learn to adapt to survive, and she works in a shipyard/salvage location. Why is it such a huge logical hurdle for people to think she knows how to use the things she spends every waking moment of her life working with?
The thing is, it doesn't really matter if Rey's skills are justified by a line of dialogue or not. The point is that it's difficult for the audience to warm to a character who breezes through the movie being good at everything. Compare her with Luke again -

Luke is brash, outgoing and reckless. He's good at flying but not much else. He goes off on his own to get R2D2 and gets clobbered by the Sand People. He was going to get clobbered again in the cantina if Kenobi hadn't intervened. He blunders his way through the rescue on the Death Star. He doesn't actually use the light sabre in combat. He's involved as a pilot in the final battle, where he would have been killed by Darth Vader if Han Solo hadn't intervened. He eventually uses the force, blows up the the Death Star and saves the day in the climax, but he goes through a lot to get there and has plenty of help along the way.

Rey is great at scavenging and fixing stuff. She is great at fighting. She's great at flying, able to execute complex manoeuvres in an atmosphere in a ship that's supposed to need two pilots. She learns how to use the Force incredibly quickly, and then escapes from the cell on her own. She's then shown to be really skilled with a light sabre, despite never having used one before. She's Little Miss Perfect compared with Luke.

Rey doesn't ruin the Force Awakens in the way that Anakin ruins the Phantom Menace, but as a protagonist she's just not relatable or likeable.
 
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BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
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Im not sure I know that genre? Which is?
Shounen usually involves action and most catered to boys between the ages of 7-17, while shoujo is mainly romance (but there are some that have action), and is mostly geared toward girls the ages of 7-17. There are many genres and sub-genres within those sub-genres of anime. Honestly, it would take a whole day to explain all of this shit. A good amount I barely remember.

I REALLY enjoyed Bleach when it first came out, until the arc about...whatever her name was (the woman who lost her death powers when they transferred to Ichigo), being captured by the Soul Society.
Rukia. She is the best girl in Bleach.

Then...it became a fighting tournament thing, and I just stopped caring.
Oohhh..., the dreaded Tournament Arc. The bane of most shounens shows....and Battle Angel Alita: Last Order. Though with Bleach, it was less tournament, and more convoluted plots, retcons, and a million back up plans, Xanatos Gambit, "I wanted you or planned on you doing this", fucking Captain Aizen. One of the most boring, overpowered villains in anime right next to Hao Asakura and all of the Uchia bloodline. Glad I stopped after the rescue Rukia arc.