What?s up with Japanese Games and storytelling?

[Tarkand]

This might not be an appropriate title, because it really started as a bit of a gripe with JRPG, but this week Extra Punctuation made me realize it really applies to a lot of Japanese game out there, regardless of genre.

But to cut to the chase? is it me or Japanese game designers seems to all be incredibly bad at writing stories?

We get incredibly convoluted plots that quite frankly make no sense at face value and make even less sense when you try and dig deeper. The story are contrived and often only ?work? because some characters are blindingly stupid or because of the suspension of disbelief-breaking coincidence. Pacing is usually dreadfully awkward.

They also seem to be a big fan of not telling you everything and letting you make your own conclusion? see, when done properly (As you can see in the movie world in film such as Donny Darko) this is actually pretty clever and help to make the movie a lot more entertaining, as it stick with you after the viewing? however, in the convoluted mess that is your typical jrpg game, this only serves to try and create the impression there is more than meet the eye.
And then the voice acting comes in. Poorly dubbed and quite often with really subpar voice actors which only serve to enforce the flaw of the story?

Look at game like Soul Calibre, Street Fighters, Dead or Alive? the stories are dumb and make no sense. The cutscenes/ending scenes really just add more confusion.

?Who cares about a story in a fighting game??

Not many people? but is that an excuse to make them so incredibly bad?

And what about games where the story is actually important? How many people say they play jrpg for 'the story'? The Final Fantasy series? VII, VIII, X, XII and XIII were all pretty bad from a story point of view ( Spoony [http://spoonyexperiment.com/] has ton of stuff to say about those on his website?). The narrative is weak, most characters are one note and rarely grow, one of the key point of most character is how stupid they all are. Or all those jrpgs Unskippable makes fun of every week (seriously, making fun of jrpg cutscene/plot is like shooting fishes in a barrel with a shotgun?). Or Resident Evils? and tons of other I?m sure I don?t even know about. Heck, most of the time the sillyness starts with the game's title, so you're already smacked with nonsense before you even put the game in. And a lot of those are AAA titles.

Now I?m not saying that western storytelling is perfect? but usually when a western game has a bad story it?s because of lazy storytelling making the story uninspiring and/or predictable and/or anti-climatic? it isn?t because it?s batshit insane and doesn?t make any sense.

To give you an example... if they made a Dragon Age movie, it'd be a pretty formulaic fantasy movie and people would probably say it was ripping of LotR. If they made a Final Fantasy movie, it wouldn't make any sense and only a rabbid cult of followers would like it... oh wait, they did that [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/final_fantasy_7_advent_children/]...

I?m surprised so many people gobble those up? it seems FFXIII finally got some people to sit up and say ?Wait? this story sucks!? and well, it did? it?s just kinda weird that it took this long for the collective community to get there.

What really puzzles me is how this game are even this big in Japan in the first place? are they just used to crappy storytelling and simply don?t mind? Is so much lost in translation that what is a sweeping epic of majestic beauty comes off as a massive brainfart of nonsense and stupidity over here? Is it just a culture thing? Halp?

Edit: Typo

 

[LogicNProportion]

I honestly have no problem with Japanese story-telling. I often find Japanese-made stories, such as those from Metal Gear Solid are very much superior to any Modern Warfares, Mass Effects, or Dragon Ages.

Telling a story in a game is different than doing it up in a movie. While both should be trying to immerse you, a movie only gets you for a couple hours, usually at most. Within this short time-span, you need to start, progress, and finish a story. And while they often get very entertaining, characters skip around in settings because the show must go on as there's a time limit.

Games, even Western ones usually number around 5 times that much in terms of the amount of time they're throwing at you. That's 5 movies you're watching, and if they merely kept throwing the same stuff at you, it would get repetitive, and playing probably would get stale without impetus. This is where I see games like Metal Gear, and FFVII shine. They're filling out an entire world for you. One you might be familiar with, maybe one you could never imagine. Chances are, if you just saw all of the over-the-top stuff in those games without some filling in, you'd put down the controller, laugh uncontrollably, and walk away to go jerk off or something. Many Final Fantasies number the 50-mark hour for a first-time play-through, and that's without side-quests. They need to keep introducing new elements. Who would want to play Level 1-1 of Super Mario Bros. for 50 hours?

I'm a writer, and an avid reader, so perhaps my brain just works in a way to analyze stories, and connect dots easily. I've never had problems understanding a story, good or bad. And if I miss something, I go research. In fact, I appreciate what I can learn from references in games that throw so much symbolism, etc at me. I always liked Sephiroth, I found him to be an engaging character, and convoluted motives just made him more fun to study. I ended up coming across what his name was supposed to mean, and saw how it fit. And with that reference, I could connect other things Square threw into FFVII and make a life-long love out of it.

So, yeah. I don't see any problem. I liked Advent Children, as well, and none of the ridiculous shite bothered me one bit. There were, however, two glaring inconsistencies that made my balls hurt when I thought about them. However, this post is long enough, so I'll wait for someone to ask before I get into that.

 

[migo]

I think the stories just don't translate very well. There are cultural assumptions in the original story that don't get translated - just the words and the context.

 

[Gigaguy64]

I think its just you.
While there are plenty of bad games, there are also plenty of Great games.

Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy Tactics, Golden Sun, Legend of Dragoon, Disgaea, Resident Evil, Guilty Gear, Metal Gear Solid, Star Ocean, Spectrobes, Lufia, Breath of Fire.

And sometimes, what comes off as a bad story to you might be a masterpiece to someone else.
And i couldn't honestly tell you why some games stories are so bad.
There is always chance of cultural references that are lost on us and and poor translations can effect that too.

 

[lostzombies.com]

I've tried numerous times but I just don't get the japanese gaming/cartoon culture what-so-ever. I just don't understand it, the appeal of it or anything to do with it; it's like how some people dedicate their lives to watching trains and making notes on waht type of engine pulls it etc.

 

[Dapper Ninja]

Yeah, most Japanese games have bad stories, but that's the case with most Western games as well. It has nothing to do with them coming from Japan; it's just Sturgeon's Law.

There are plenty of diamonds in the rough. The World Ends With You, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Kingdom Hearts, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Persona series, and the other MegaTen spin-offs, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, most early Final Fantasies, Shadow of the Colossus, BlazBlue, Paper Mario, and tons of others.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I?m surprised so many people gobble those up? it seems FFXIII finally got some people to sit up and say ?Wait? this story sucks!? and well, it did? it?s just kinda weird that it took this long for the collective community to get there.

...you think maybe, just maybe, it's because they don't agree with you on the other ones?

Seriously, my only answer can be "different folks, different tastes." I like most of the things you mentioned. I don't find most of those plots convoluted to the point of incomprehensibility, I don't find the characters weak, I don't find the pacing off, and I love the gameplay besides.

Look at game like Soul Calibre, Street Fighters, Dead or Alive... the stories are dumb and make no sense. The cutscenes/ending scenes really just add more confusion.

Why are you bringing up fighting games? And attributing all of their flaws to Japan?

"Who cares about a story in a fighting game?"

Not many people... but is that an excuse to make them so incredibly bad?

The reason they're bad is because you're trying to cram a story in for every character. Not everything's "canon," not everything is going to make sense. It's a natural result of having several completely incompatible things happening at once, and only knowing what's the real story after the fact.

That's why you don't find out what happened to Dizzy until Guilty Gear XX, who fought who and how Bison died in Street Fighter Alpha, just which Destined Fights actually happened until the subsequent Soul Calibur, etc.

You want a totally comprehensible fighting game story right off the bat, go with <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.230960-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Melty-Blood>Melty Blood.

 

[Winfrid]

Did you see the Dead or Alive movie? That's why, Fighting Game stories tend to be stupid, because there's a cast of characters who have their own narrative, you can't make a solid/consistant narrative for all the characters because then it's boring, but it's also difficult to give each character their own story because then you're probably contradicting another characters point of view
Like for example, the dragonball fighting games, you Beat someone, but you still lose, because it follows a consistant story..... in terms of the fighting game, that's stupid, why would you need to beat someone to progress the game when you just lose anyway?
This doesn't apply as much to RPGs, because the mechanics are different, the aim is different

Sometimes the story just doesn't translate that well, sometimes when it's localised for english language, the story is changed, or what characters say is changed

I disagree with your point of view that all/most jrpg stories are stupid, Final Fantasy has just gotten progressively worse since 10 when what'shisname left
There are plenty of jrpgs with fantastic stories, they just aren't as mainstream as your final fantasies

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I honestly have no problem with Japanese story-telling. I often find Japanese-made stories, such as those from Metal Gear Solid are very much superior to any Modern Warfares, Mass Effects, or Dragon Ages.

Telling a story in a game is different than doing it up in a movie. While both should be trying to immerse you, a movie only gets you for a couple hours, usually at most. Within this short time-span, you need to start, progress, and finish a story. And while they often get very entertaining, characters skip around in settings because the show must go on as there's a time limit.

Games, even Western ones usually number around 5 times that much in terms of the amount of time they're throwing at you. That's 5 movies you're watching, and if they merely kept throwing the same stuff at you, it would get repetitive, and playing probably would get stale without impetus. This is where I see games like Metal Gear, and FFVII shine. They're filling out an entire world for you. One you might be familiar with, maybe one you could never imagine. Chances are, if you just saw all of the over-the-top stuff in those games without some filling in, you'd put down the controller, laugh uncontrollably, and walk away to go jerk off or something. Many Final Fantasies number the 50-mark hour for a first-time play-through, and that's without side-quests. They need to keep introducing new elements. Who would want to play Level 1-1 of Super Mario Bros. for 50 hours?

I'm a writer, and an avid reader, so perhaps my brain just works in a way to analyze stories, and connect dots easily. I've never had problems understanding a story, good or bad. And if I miss something, I go research. In fact, I appreciate what I can learn from references in games that throw so much symbolism, etc at me. I always liked Sephiroth, I found him to be an engaging character, and convoluted motives just made him more fun to study. I ended up coming across what his name was supposed to mean, and saw how it fit. And with that reference, I could connect other things Square threw into FFVII and make a life-long love out of it.

So, yeah. I don't see any problem. I liked Advent Children, as well, and none of the ridiculous shite bothered me one bit. There were, however, two glaring inconsistencies that made my balls hurt when I thought about them. However, this post is long enough, so I'll wait for someone to ask before I get into that.

this.

i think its just one of those things you just get or dont get.

i dont get why people love half life so much, but its one of those truths you just kinda accept, honestly i prefer a jrpg story any day of the week over 90% of western ones.

 

[NotSoNimble]

I have yet to shed a tear for any Western video games story. So I have no clue what you are talking about. I don't know what else to say without sounding like I'm trying to flame or bait someone here, I just wanted to type what I thought when I read your post.

And for the record... the story for FFXII didn't suck, the voice overs did!

But that is just my lowly not so nimble opinion.

 

[Thunderhorse31]

I think there's a difference between writing a good story and being a shitty editor. The Metal Gear Solid games are great examples. Gripping tales, soulful and emotional characters, and depth that may be unparalleled in the mainstream.

And then there's the dialog.

Campbell: We need you to take down Metal Gear.
Snake: Metal Gear?
Campbell: The bipedal tank taken by FOXHOUND.
Snake: FOXHOUND?
Campbell: Your former unit, headed now by Liquid Snake.
Snake: Liquid?
Campbell: The man who took over Shadow Moses Island.
Snake: Shadow Moses Island?
Campbell: YOU SHOULD KNOW WHERE THAT IS! YOU F*CKING LIVED IN ALASKA!!!!
Snake: ...

To be clear, I love the stories in the MGS universe, but the writing IS terrible. So I can agree with your sentiments to an extent.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

They also seem to be a big fan of not telling you everything and letting you make your own conclusion... see, when done properly (As you can see in the movie world in film such as Donny Darko) this is actually pretty clever and help to make the movie a lot more entertaining, as it stick with you after the viewing?

First off, Donnie Darko sucks ass; Richard Kelly is perhaps the most pretentious director working. Have you seen his other movies? Southland Tales and The Box are some of the worst movies ever made. Southland Tales is actually kind of entertaining though, "pimps don't commit suicide."

Anyways, on to video game stories. Japanese stories by nature are not as literal as Western stories are, they like to leave much more open for interpretation. At least that's my experience from watching a lot of Asian movies and anime. And, they also like to hide some things from the viewer and make even simple and straightforward stories have some mystery to them. For example, even in Bayonetta, a lot of stuff isn't revealed until late in the game and that's just a straight-up cheesy action story. I prefer the Asian way of storytelling when it works because it keeps me more interested. And, it doesn't work as much as they (Asians) think it does as there are probably as many bad Asian movies as American movies, and most anime is pretty bad as well. Resonance of Fate had a good story if they would've told you everything in the game, you literally have to read the wiki to know a lot of what happens in the game. Shadow of Destiny (on the PS2, PSP, and PC) has one of the best game stories ever.

I just think you find Asian storytelling more annoying when it ends up sucking more so than bad Western storytelling.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Japan is a very scary place for many, and a haven for many others. You just have to decide which it is for you.

And if that doesn't explain why it's so strange, see: this
[image/]http://xspblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/japan1140e039cb9.jpg[/IMG]

 

[Zhukov]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Japanese game writing in particular.

It's just that writing/story/narrative/characterization is games generally sucks. And some of those games are Japanese.

Sure, the incredibly shitty FFXIII was from Japan, but so was Shadow of the Colossus.

Just like here in the west we are capable of producing both crap like Crysis and awesome stuff like Bioshock.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Japan is a very scary place for many, and a haven for many others. You just have to decide which it is for you.

And if that doesn't explain why it's so strange, see: this
[image/]http://xspblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/japan1140e039cb9.jpg[/IMG]

OMG, I know what movie that is from; Funky Forest and the movie just plain sucks. It was trying to be like Survive Style 5+ but every one of the stories in Funky Forest was the complete opposite of entertaining.

 

[Rodin_d'Arc]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Japanese game writing in particular.

It's just that writing/story/narrative/characterization is games generally sucks. And some of those games are Japanese.

Sure, the incredibly shitty FFXIII was from Japan, but so was Shadow of the Colossus.

Just like here in the west we are capable of producing both crap like Crysis and awesome stuff like Bioshock.

Crysis is far from crap; the only gripe I have with it is my 6-month-old laptop can't run it.

 

[Zhukov]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Japanese game writing in particular.

It's just that writing/story/narrative/characterization is games generally sucks. And some of those games are Japanese.

Sure, the incredibly shitty FFXIII was from Japan, but so was Shadow of the Colossus.

Just like here in the west we are capable of producing both crap like Crysis and awesome stuff like Bioshock.

Crysis is far from crap; the only gripe I have with it is my 6-month-old laptop can't run it.

Oh sure, Cyrsis is very pretty. And the gameplay is alright.

But the writing is shit on a stick.

A very pretty stick.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I've found that most of the problem lies in the characters. They usually have these dumb quirks that causes them to exhibit behavior that no human being ever would. Also, the japanese tend to think that giving a character a deep backstory makes them a better character. It really doesn't. People are shallow. Life is shallow. Most of the time giving a character an exceptionally depressing or complex backstory just makes it too melodramatic. Especially if this is applied to multiple characters, which it often is. Having characters people can relate to or at very least BELIEVE helps the story a lot.

 

[harvz]

ok, there is the 'common' JRPG that where it is generally about x wanting to kill/kiss y but im ignoring those for this argument (mostly)
i often find the exact opposite from what your saying, i find western style's often have a poor story and thats why i will avoid them (crysis, fable 2, gears of war, ect).
just because a game is pretty doesn't make it a good story, its still fun but has no depth and the same goes for "cinematic games" such as the final fantasy series.
as in the extra credits video i will state that god of war 1 has a bit of characterization, but development of characters is what drives a story and god of war has little progression.

now a game/anime i believe has a great story is dot hack GU (i am playing the first of the trilogy and have watched the entire anime including the movie), in GU the main character is Haseo, a boy who begins as an arrogant ass, becomes one of the strongest characters in 'the world', looses the character and starts again.
it is through this loss that Haseo begins to develop as a character and begins to form bonds with others who's characters also are 'three dimensional', all of which is done to save his friend (love) and discover the secrets of 'the world'.

this game shows us a steady progression of character and in doing this provides us a great story of development of character, love and insanity (sound jumpy on paper but is much better in reality).

 

[Tarkand]

There?s the bad writing, as mentioned by Thunderhorse31, the incomplete stories that need outside source to be fully understoond, as mentioned by Phoenixmgs, the unrealistic and unreliable characters as mentioned by Guitarmasterx7 and the well known crappy voice over. Yet somehow, apparently a lot of people can find the diamond in the rough in there. I personally don?t see how when every single element that makes a story is poorly done, the sum of the part can be good, but heh?

Mind you, it?s not like I played every single Japanese game out there, but those elements pretty much seem to always be there whenever I do pick one up.

I just think you find Asian storytelling more annoying when it ends up sucking more so than bad Western storytelling.

That's quite likely true. Darksiders had a very poor story, yet it didn't make me nerd rage.