What should have been done about WW?

IceForce

Is this memes?
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Apr 4, 2020
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TopazFusion said:
(As an aside, we saw a repeat of this when the GID subforum was created, because there were lots of complaints from people who were sick of seeing gamergate threads everywhere, and there were enough gamergate threads at the time to warrant their own subforum.)
Time to close GID now, then?
 

Armadox

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Aug 31, 2010
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Lil devils x said:
1) do not put words in my mouth. If we do not have R&P we still discuss these things, just it happened in other forums on this site, still does from time to time. Usually Mods move those threads to R&P eventually though. That is why R&P was created in the first place. R&P is not there "to find out who is racist". it is there to discuss policy implementation and current events that affect people's actual lives. You may think that is what it is for, but the people having actual discussions in there do not. I always start out from the position that people are not racist, sexist, or even an arse until they give me a good enough reason to believe otherwise.

Your entire view of "picking at people" rather than actually weighing pros and cons of different policies and expanding understating of the topics being discussed is probably why we do not see you participate more in the actual conversations as that is not what it is about at all. I generally do not treat people any different on here than I do in person. Some of those that actually do know me in person have told me that I am actually nicer online. Maybe that is because I have the delete button here and can remove what I wrote before posting it and IRL I do not.
*yawn* You're going to make me have to be serious about all this huh? Alright. The fact of the matter is that I think both of us are on the same side anyways, so the back and forth of any conversation is without any major conflict. We both would rather have R&P and WW open. For different reasons mind, but you're right, I shouldn't use you as a prop. Even if you're great for it.

The idea that R&P would just bleed into Off Topic suggests that R&P is outside the realm of governance. That you can't keep it in check via mod control. Banning it out right wouldn't stop anyone. And if there's no agency there then it's not really modded, but only has the theater of being controlled. I feel the same would be from banning WW like this. You stop the symptoms, but the infection is still there. Giving people their own space to do something minimizes the contact you have with those conversations elsewhere. Video games have started using tools to match trolls with trolls, so this isn't an isolated incident to just here. You'd think merely not going into WW and looking at their stuff would be enough to protect yourself from whatever stupid shit they have in there. Like not going to R&P means you don't have to deal with someone arguing politics in your "Best Kool-aid flavor" thread.

The mods treat R&P as some unyielding stone here. Some fixed point in the forum that is beyond their ability to end or reel in, and that's what irks me. So many people came to the defense of WW because they thought it deserved to be there. Just like you have given reasons R&P should exist. I think removing R&P outright would sure, lead to a few bans on the onset and a lot of warnings from a mod team that'd have to focus a bit on Off-topic, but it'd bleed out of conversation on here, just like you don't talk politics to people on the street. You'd adapt to it not being there.

So yes, I realize I'm using "ban R&P" in more a "Modest Proposal" sense, I don't think it SHOULD happen. What I think is that R&P is seen as inevitable so no one chooses to touch it even if it is the reason for the most bans in this forum, and creates lasting grudges that bled over into WW as call out threads. Most any pros and cons made to R&P's continued existence could be made for WW. Shitposting exists, it had a place for it that wasn't in Off-Topic. They're not going away.

As far as my participation in R&P, occasionally I'll find something that amuses me and for little else will I post. Mostly because my philosophy is that it's a crutch. It's a crutch used by those without the ability to change their situation to vent in a means that accomplishes nothing. It's popping bubble wrap rather then using that moment posting here to participate in the actual world at your local level. You might get a minor consideration on the rare occasion from a forum member, but so often it's become a miasma of tribalism and talking into your own asshole. So why take it seriously? Posting news as it shows up, and collectively bitching about it is cathartic.

IRL I take money from all political parties to make up the signs and banners and what not all the time, and have come to realize that the only real ideology I have is "don't hurt the most amount of people you can, while still making money." That's it. That's as deep as I get usually. I wouldn't have to pay it any more attention then that if it was functioning in any sort of capacity, so I tend to be a bit more broad stroked about things.

Shutting down WW like this wasn't fair play. It wasn't aligned with the communities response.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
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Armadox said:
Lil devils x said:
1) do not put words in my mouth. If we do not have R&P we still discuss these things, just it happened in other forums on this site, still does from time to time. Usually Mods move those threads to R&P eventually though. That is why R&P was created in the first place. R&P is not there "to find out who is racist". it is there to discuss policy implementation and current events that affect people's actual lives. You may think that is what it is for, but the people having actual discussions in there do not. I always start out from the position that people are not racist, sexist, or even an arse until they give me a good enough reason to believe otherwise.

Your entire view of "picking at people" rather than actually weighing pros and cons of different policies and expanding understating of the topics being discussed is probably why we do not see you participate more in the actual conversations as that is not what it is about at all. I generally do not treat people any different on here than I do in person. Some of those that actually do know me in person have told me that I am actually nicer online. Maybe that is because I have the delete button here and can remove what I wrote before posting it and IRL I do not.
*yawn* You're going to make me have to be serious about all this huh? Alright. The fact of the matter is that I think both of us are on the same side anyways, so the back and forth of any conversation is without any major conflict. We both would rather have R&P and WW open. For different reasons mind, but you're right, I shouldn't use you as a prop. Even if you're great for it.

The idea that R&P would just bleed into Off Topic suggests that R&P is outside the realm of governance. That you can't keep it in check via mod control. Banning it out right wouldn't stop anyone. And if there's no agency there then it's not really modded, but only has the theater of being controlled. I feel the same would be from banning WW like this. You stop the symptoms, but the infection is still there. Giving people their own space to do something minimizes the contact you have with those conversations elsewhere. Video games have started using tools to match trolls with trolls, so this isn't an isolated incident to just here. You'd think merely not going into WW and looking at their stuff would be enough to protect yourself from whatever stupid shit they have in there. Like not going to R&P means you don't have to deal with someone arguing politics in your "Best Kool-aid flavor" thread.

The mods treat R&P as some unyielding stone here. Some fixed point in the forum that is beyond their ability to end or reel in, and that's what irks me. So many people came to the defense of WW because they thought it deserved to be there. Just like you have given reasons R&P should exist. I think removing R&P outright would sure, lead to a few bans on the onset and a lot of warnings from a mod team that'd have to focus a bit on Off-topic, but it'd bleed out of conversation on here, just like you don't talk politics to people on the street. You'd adapt to it not being there.

So yes, I realize I'm using "ban R&P" in more a "Modest Proposal" sense, I don't think it SHOULD happen. What I think is that R&P is seen as inevitable so no one chooses to touch it even if it is the reason for the most bans in this forum, and creates lasting grudges that bled over into WW as call out threads. Most any pros and cons made to R&P's continued existence could be made for WW. Shitposting exists, it had a place for it that wasn't in Off-Topic. They're not going away.

As far as my participation in R&P, occasionally I'll find something that amuses me and for little else will I post. Mostly because my philosophy is that it's a crutch. It's a crutch used by those without the ability to change their situation to vent in a means that accomplishes nothing. It's popping bubble wrap rather then using that moment posting here to participate in the actual world at your local level. You might get a minor consideration on the rare occasion from a forum member, but so often it's become a miasma of tribalism and talking into your own asshole. So why take it seriously? Posting news as it shows up, and collectively bitching about it is cathartic.

IRL I take money from all political parties to make up the signs and banners and what not all the time, and have come to realize that the only real ideology I have is "don't hurt the most amount of people you can, while still making money." That's it. That's as deep as I get usually. I wouldn't have to pay it any more attention then that if it was functioning in any sort of capacity, so I tend to be a bit more broad stroked about things.

Shutting down WW like this wasn't fair play. It wasn't aligned with the communities response.
R&P topics appearing outside of R&P does not suggest it is outside the realm of governance, but instead that topics that are considered to be R&P are intertwined in every facet of life, including gaming and numerous other subjects due to the real world impact of what our governments choose to do. There are crossovers all over he place thus why such topic appear in numerous forums as well. There is no issue " governing" R&P topics, instead the same rules apply to every other aspect of the forums.

I also think you have misjudged many of those discussing political or religious issues online, as many ALSO do participate in much on a local, state, federal or in my case, even a global level as well (thus why I disappear for long stretches because all I bring with me for communication is a satellite phone) but use this instead as a release valve to discuss the issues impacting our lives the most while it is not as convenient to do so elsewhere at the time, while at work, for example, or late at night and everyone is asleep. Most of the topics I post on are DUE to how it is affecting actual people I am trying to assist in person. I work in Medicine, I treat Patients every day who cannot afford basic necessities needed to survive. Far too often, those of us in healthcare are actually paying for the medications and treatments these people need to survive out of our own pockets due to the lack of coverage where I reside. What happens on the federal, state and local levels of government affect whether these same people I deal with daily live or die. People tend to overlook the fact that these policy discussions we have online have very real world consequences that those they are discussing these things with have to deal with very single day.

I disagree that open discussion, whether on this site or elsewhere is pointless, as discussing these things in all available mediums is how they get ideas spread. I do not "take money" from political parties, I have in the past served on my city council to have a Hospital built and I do however, volunteer my time and donate money to try and help the most amount of people I can in the hopes they can survive whichever party comes to office. That is far from an easy task given our current political climate where we have elected officials trying to enact policies that will literally kill the people I am trying to help.

I agree about WW, however, I think that what has been said about R&P is far from accurate.
 

Ugicywapih

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Souplex said:
No, if you take out the Waifus, fanservice, and bad writing, it'd be Fire Emblem again. Most people play it because they like the gameplay, and they merely tolerate the weebery.
I think you have a somewhat narrow view of anime. I consider myself a weeb, I love the stuff... even though the things you've mentioned tick me off (except for some waifus maybe). Those are also not the only issues with anime, sexism is rampant in general - the moe archetype in particular is both widespread and, if you think about it, pretty damn toxic, and the problems continue behind the screen, where female VAs are paid significantly less from what I hear, racist/jingoist stereotyping is much more common in anime as well, aside from writing which sometimes achieves downright mythical levels of shittery, some tropes are also stupid AF and important research is sometimes just not done (IE any time I've heard philosophy of law discussed in anime so far, it's crucial to the plot and I would've been better off... not hearing it, I guess?) and don't even get me started on some titles that serve as thinly veiled commercials for one particular branch of Japanese industry or another...

With all these complaints, what's good about anime? I'd say it's in a very peculiar space, industry-wise - as I understand it, we're generally talking about a (generally) low revenue environment, that largely relies on creators' own enthusiasm for this sort of work as an incentive for continuing employment. This means low production costs (especially with large parts of production being outsourced and animation being a well established technology that further hugely benefits from digitalization of modern life), which encourages risk-taking and experimentation, ultimately resulting in a rich and varied medium, that, while its comparatively low barrier of entry allows in all sorts of shite, is willing to explore unexpected and exciting prospects (and I'm not ONLY talking about orifices).

Granted, the issues with anime will often, one way or another, bleed even into the better titles, often marring them, but I find it doesn't necessarily detract from the positives.

Of course the factors I'm crediting with anime's success also can be attributed to western animation, but I think both cultural drive and possibly work outsourcing are probably more pronounced in Japan, due to both anime in its current shape having built a specific tradition and culture around itself and, I'm guessing corporate culture or laxer business laws (I'm more guessing here, but I really do recall reading far more news about anime animation being outsourced than about the same thing happening in western animation).

So yeah, complaining weebery is all plagued with waifus, fanservice and bad writing is like saying all videogames are hyper-violent gorefests. Some of my favourites I'd consider completely clear of these faults would be Natsume Yuujinchou and Mushishi, give them a try if you'd like. Or not, I'm not your mum (probably).

Goodness me, look at me derailing my own thread xD
 

Armadox

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Aug 31, 2010
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Lil devils x said:
R&P topics appearing outside of R&P does not suggest it is outside the realm of governance, but instead that topics that are considered to be R&P are intertwined in every facet of life
Well, I'll get to the rest of that later. My gut response would be "I don't have to talk about the justifications of the Banana Wars to enjoy my fucking banana", but beyond that. This is.. Are you doing a skit where you agree with me by disagreeing? Cause it sounds like your defense of me saying banning all R&P would work is "Everything's political, man." which means it's not possible for people to separate R&P from discussion. Meaning it's going to leak through other forums regardless of the rules.
 

dscross

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You know, before all this came up I never even went on the Wild West forum. I just checked it out because everyone keeps going on about it now it has been disabled. To be honest, it seems like a pointless outlet to me. What do you guys see in it? I'd argue that people being able to say what they want in those forums and talk shit about other users leads their behaviour to spill over in the moderated ones - which explains a lot actually. It will probably be a good thing if it goes.
 

Souplex

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LostGryphon said:
Souplex said:
American Tanker said:
Souplex said:
Two of those things are what enabled the series to become as popular as it is today. You really want to take those out? Just because you don't like them?

The bad writing, that's mostly because "localizers" don't understand their place and are trying to push agenda bullshit instead of translating accurately. That needs to be dealt with. But outside of that one issue that's not really the fault of the developers, you're really saying that you want the series to go back to being ultra-niche?
Weebery is ultra-niche too. Let's get it out of that niche so it's more accessible to the public.
And no, translating shit badly is not what makes it shit. FE 7-10 had stories and writing that ranged from solid to amazing
The weeb shit is literally what saved the series.

I don't mean in terms of quality. I mean in terms of sales.
No, being the first game to actually be advertised, and coming out when there wasn't really anything else for the 3DS is what saved the series. Awakening would've sold just as well if not better without the Weeb taint.
 

American Tanker

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Souplex said:
No, being the first game to actually be advertised, and coming out when there wasn't really anything else for the 3DS is what saved the series. Awakening would've sold just as well if not better without the Weeb taint.
Good grief, Soup, really? You think the advertising would have been remotely as effective WITHOUT the waifus?

That just doesn't compute.
 

Elijin

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I've never fully understood how some of the most dedicated anti-WW posters really behave like they fitted right in at the WW.
 

Souplex

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American Tanker said:
Souplex said:
No, being the first game to actually be advertised, and coming out when there wasn't really anything else for the 3DS is what saved the series. Awakening would've sold just as well if not better without the Weeb taint.
Good grief, Soup, really? You think the advertising would have been remotely as effective WITHOUT the waifus?

That just doesn't compute.
Yes. Advertising wouldn't make Conception II not a niche weeb waifu-fest.
My roommate bought Conception II as a laugh, and forced me to play it. If the Weebs have their way, that's what Fire Emblem will become. I've seen the dark future, and I have to stop it.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Souplex said:
At the bottom we have Weebs, Furries, Militant PC gamers, Larpers, and any other group that could be classified as "Chan Scum".
Really. Huh. Well, about that [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1055208-Hey-guys-Im-a-furry?page=3#24239736]....
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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May 15, 2010
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Keep it gone. It honestly gives more credibility to my concept that a lawless area and humans are actually incompatible, which will inevitably lead to one of two things: Either it implodes under the weight of terrible behavior, or the terrible behavior requires some form of law to be instituted to ensure terrible behavior is somewhat curbed.