What/Who is a Mary Sue to you?

[SNCommand]

I love how people instantly call Geralt a mary sue without considering his flaws. He isn't universally loved, he is despised in his world. Ciri is the actual mary sue here due to how everyone wants her because she a child of the elder blood with kick ass abilities.

Wouldn't Ciri be just as despised by the common people though because of her witcher like appearance?

Now I never got that into the Witcher games so I could possibly be wrong, but I still can't help but feel that Geralt is a Mary Sue in spite of people mistrusting him because he is a Witcher. Primary reason being the mistrust is usually presented as ignorant yokels being the ignorant common people that they are, and that it has no negative consequences for Geralt. The only people who seem to dislike Geralt for being a witcher is dumb ugly farmers, people Geralt could, and sometimes easily kill because of the pathetic peasants they are

Ciri isn't actually a witcher, she has never gone through the trials, so she is still humans. And if you played The Witcher 3, almost no one reacts negativity to her. Also you can't really kill farmers or any generic npc who isn't a bandit.

So no he's not a mary sue in my view.

But she looks like one no? She carries the two blades like one for example which is how everyone else spots them

Also I'm fairly sure I fought quite a few yokels in the witcher series, usually drunkards picking a fight

Point being though even if you fight them or not they're no threat to Geralt, neither physically nor mentally, it's not as if Geralt is being held back because the ugly peasants don't like him

 

[The Lunatic]

The rest series of Jessica Jones is pretty heavy on the Mary Sue-ness. As much as I enjoy the series, the woman has absolutely no flaws.

Her only "Weakness" is that "She cares too much". Which is a lot like saying your only weakness is "Perfectionism".

She can fly, heal very quickly, super strength and so on.

It's a shame really, there's a lot of weaknesses that could be worked into the character, you'd think her alcoholism would have some affect on her, but, if anything it's almost completely ignored.

 

[Cicada 5]

Mary sues does not always bring a story down, you could still have a workable story with good fights and other good characters despite of it, it just that a Mary sues existence usually shows that the writer is bad so it's no surprise the show overall is bad.

There's a lot of ways to define a mary sue, some of them overlap with how characters are supposed to be (a hero will usually win, regardless of being a Mary sue), so I'll put it in a global way:

A good character is depicted of how it changes the world and the world changes her, A mary sue is depicted as how the world changes for her.

Let's go with Batman, Batman in his normal settings is pretty good as he goes against relatively "low level" baddies, but when he goes with the JLA he becomes god mode sue as he is way more able (usually more) than everyone else despite merely going against the likes of Doomsday should kill him instantly.
Or let's go with Avatar, Aang was powerless and needed a lot of time to grow and realize his limits and strengths, the world changed him to be more adult. Korra on the other hand is able to learn 3 elements by the old age of 6 (despite canon) and become the "true avatar" in end of season 2 (killing all previous avatars in the progress), the world changes for her sake.

To give a good example of a powerful good female character, Matou Ryuko, she loses several times and pretty much has to level grind until she can tackle the school council, there's a linear progression which seems realistic to the setting, rather than her win just about everytime because of bullshit abilities (like 90% of anime protagonists do).

As for worst I say Korra, mainly because the original show was so good and she's so bad.

Did you watch seasons 3 and 4. If you do you'd realize Korra's decision to keep the portal to the Spirit World open was not well received and that the third season ended with her being paralyzed due to mercury poisoning.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

A character with no negative personality traits who flawlessly coasts through a plot that is constantly (and improbably) flattering him or her, because he/she is good at everything and better than everyone.

Rey from Ep. 7, for example.

 

[Cicada 5]

Well I'll start by saying that a Mary Sue is ALWAYS dependent on the writers. It's part of the very definition, whether you go with self-insert or just favourite character. That being said I think a lot of super heroes get this treatment at some point and I think DC is especially bad for it.

I mean Batman can have a lot of depth but in the hands of a horrible writer he can certainly be a huge Mary Sue. But I think there is a much worse one: Superman. He's just so perfect that it's sickening.

There have been SOOOOO many Superman comics that anything I say about him you could probably find something somewhere to refute it... but that's part of the problem. He can do anything, everything, and he's exceptional at all of it. He's as fast as the flash (depending on the writer), strong as... ummm... I don't know but I'm sure DC has someone who is suppose to be the living incarnation of strength and superman has probably been as strong as him at some point. When he was killed by Doomsday he... went into a healing coma? So besides being neigh invulnerable he can ALSO regenerate?!

He's the ULTIMATE "I wrote myself into a corner and now I need a way out" Mary Sue.

Superman has never been depicted as being as fast as the Flash. At best, the Flash simply holds back.

My argument is the same as it?s always been: You?re not a Mary Sue if there?s an in-story reason why you?re powerful/good at everything/inherently noble/whatever. Superman in story reasons for why he can do the things he does. Batman doesn't. And at least with Superman the writers are aware what he can do is impossible, whereas Bat writers pretty much insult the readers intelligence by acting like the things he accomplishes are possible.

 

[Synigma]

He's the ULTIMATE "I wrote myself into a corner and now I need a way out" Mary Sue.

Superman has never been depicted as being as fast as the Flash. At best, the Flash simply holds back.

My argument is the same as it?s always been: You?re not a Mary Sue if there?s an in-story reason why you?re powerful/good at everything/inherently noble/whatever. Superman in story reasons for why he can do the things he does. Batman doesn't. And at least with Superman the writers are aware what he can do is impossible, whereas Bat writers pretty much insult the readers intelligence by acting like the things he accomplishes are possible.

Ya after reading more posts I've changed my stance. I think Superman still fits as a Mary Sue in most qualities (again, dependent on the writer); power fantasy, lack of personal flaws and a general lack of character growth. And yes his powers, as ridiculous as they are, are explained in universe. That's not what saves him from being a Mary Sue though. He's not a Mary Sue because he's not the writer's projection; he's a projection for the readers. I mean who hasn't imagined what it would be like to have Superman's powers?

Batman has the same defense but instead of the super powers it's his intelligence, skills and money/toys we wish we had.

Movies do this all the time too; making a character intentionally bland so that the audience can see themselves as that character when they become powerful by the end. Neo I think is the best example but more recently Rey fits the bill too.

 

[Dan Steele]

A Mary Sue in my opinion is an overpowered character that is unrelatable to the common reader/player/moviegoer. As a character artist: characters need flaws, or they are unrelatable and boring.

 

[Ryallen]

I've always used it to describe a character that seems to be perfect in any and every relevant way to the story.

Spoiler: Spoilers ahead concerning The KingKiller Chronicles and the Something Red series

Qvothe is a great example, and Name of The Wind, though beautifully written, makes it hard to care for his 'plights' (secretly I was hoping, as alot of folks might have been, that the retelling of these tales of his past were going to be exposed as rosy-tinted memories or even lies by others he had traveled with in the next couple of books, and although A Wise Man's Fear is not quite as consistently in Qvothe's service, he's still pretty unstoppable/awesome) Greatest bard, great looking, master martial artist, charmed the faerie queen, etc.

I was talking about Kvothe, actually. Funny how that works out.

 

[the December King]

I was talking about Kvothe, actually. Funny how that works out.

Crap! Sorry Ryallen, meant to start by quoting you for a shared perception of the character when I began ranting. My bad.

Another couple that I felt could be called Mary Sues, as in after a while I ceased to worry about their dilemmas because they always seemed to be perfect, were Battle Angel Alita (sooo very tiring after only several novels, but maybe that is to be expected from the genre?) and Conan. I love the Conan stories, but I can freely admit that I have never really worried about him not saving the day, or overcoming all obstacles. It might not be exactly a Mary Sue issue, as what happens is is that Conan is not great at everything, he's just amazing at extreme survival skills, battle tactics, is super strong and is an adept with most weapons. I figured it was more that he exhibits a lot of the potential traits of the Mary Sue classification.

 

[jklinders]

Simply put a Mary Sue to me is any character that has the internal logic of a story or setting turned on it's head to always favor the character. The more contortions the author has to go through to allow for the character's infallibility the worse the character is.

Whether a character is a Mary Sue or not is very much in tune with their place in the setting. It has little to do with how "perfect" the character is and everything to do with how much the universe bends to cater to them. Obviously for this reason I find very few comic book heroes interesting as there are constant examples of excuses given to allow them their leeway.

Some folks are hellbent on calling Rey from The Force Awakens a Sue. There can be a valid argument or two for that. But my problem with jumping to that conclusion is that her story is not even really partially told yet. Maybe we should try to get more of it before we make that leap. In the meantime while I celebrate Harrison Ford's performance as Han, I wish he had a little less screen time so that the new characters had more time to actually develop.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

I've never actually seen a character I would call a Mary Sue, outside of the cartoon episodes where so-and-so's cousin comes to town and everyone loves them while the normal character can't stand them because the cousin is better in every way. Episode usually ends with the perfect cousin admitting that the normal character is better at at least one thing, usually making friends.
But those episodes are poking fun, so I don't count them.

I define a Mary Sue by a character who is so clearly better than EVERYONE else at EVERYTHING, even if they've never tried it before. The Jedi who can out fence Luke on his first day of lightsaber practice, has a deeper understanding of the Force than Yoda, has Tenel Ka, Tahiri, and Jaina all tripping over themselves to spend time with him, Mara Jade goes to for advice on combat, and every Dark Side user fears him. He can fly the Falcon better than Han and Chewie combined, can bullseye womp rats that are only a meter long, is a crack shot with a blaster no matter how far away or how fast the target is moving, has never been tempted by the Dark Side, settles more political disputes than Princess Leia, and has a perfectly tone stomach and flawless hair.

It is the girl who Harry and Ron fight over, and even Draco looks at from time to time. SHe gets better grades than Hermione, doesn't even consider for half a second to join the Death Eaters, is feared by The Dark Lord more than he fears Harry, is not only Captain of her House's quiditch team, she has also broken every record ever set and has professional teams looking at her. She is the girl that Dumbledore has tea with and asks for advice, she takes better care of Fang than his own owner, and the sorting hat let her straight pick her house because, "I've never met a wizard with so much raw potential in all my years." And her chest is the perfect size, her curves are a goddess', and her hair flows in the wind but never tangles.


That's what Mary Sue is to me. I can easily write one, as they are not hard to write at all, but I've never actually seen one in movies or books outside of the parodies I mentioned.

 

[Fairly Chaotic]

...snip...

Thank you very much for that! Sometimes it seems as if everyone complaining about batman has never actually taken the time to read a few comics besides the mainstream JLs for themselves. I wish I could throw copies of "Batman: Venom" or "Bruce Wayne, Murderer?" at them. Disdain for the dark knight is the same reason why people hate the New England Patriots; they are popular because they are genuinely good.

On Topic: I have always considered Superman and Stark/Iron Man (especially after the Extremis run) to be Mary Sues. I also agree with everyone calling Rey a Mary Sue. Superman is always the strongest and smartest hero in the DC multiverse unless someone finds his off switch(kryptonite).

Stark post Extremis was very annoying. I liked the idea of his brain being the actual cpu for his suit and not needing Jarvis or any OS. I did not like how suddenly he could counter every move and power he encountered and began creating new powers every time he farted. I stopped reading about Iron Man after the first Civil War so I don't know how ridiculous he became during his superior run.

If Luke and Han had a baby, it would be Rey. At whatever point Skywalker and Solo were at the height of their abilities, Rei is already there with their abilities combined. I dislike her for the same reason I dislike Uchiha Sasuke: she didn't earn her abilities, she was just born that good.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I've always seen Mary Sue characters as being the type of character clearly there for insertion purposes. It's a character clearly designed first and foremost for fans of that universe to self-insert themselves into, likely because that's how they insert themselves into that universe already. An example would be:

Spoiler: Saints Row 4 details

Matt Miller's Loyalty mission. Miller wrote an entire story where he got a chance to hang out with Nyte Blayde, fight alongside Nyte Blayde, and eventually take over for Nyte Blayde. Furthermore, Nyte Blayde spent the entire time praising Miller. Even in the end, when Zinyak causes Nyte Blayde to turn on Boss and Miller, Miller still gets everything he wanted, minus the details of how they get there.

Now, that may not be a Mary Sue for the player, but it is an example of such a character. The Mary Sue becomes a part of the universe, is loved by everyone in that universe, gets to hang out with all the fans' favorite characters, gets to fight at least one villain, and ultimately succeeds at everything he or she does.

So a character like Batman or Geralt is not a Mary Sue. Yes, they are unnaturally successful within their own universes. Yes, they (or at least Batman) has a large following of fans. Many people may even claim to relate to them and/or want to do what they do. But Batman wasn't designed for fans to live out their fantasy of fighting alongside Catwoman, nor was Geralt designed around fans having a chance to live out their fantasy of having sex with Triss. Both of those characters exist in their universes for their own sake. The Mary Sue exists purely for the fan's sake.