What would you like to see less or more of around here?

[ThatOtherGirl]

This kind of mentality is that of individuals demanding those in control start warping society around them to be more in their own image rather than understanding that being a part of society means give and take and not always only dealing with your best buddies.

I'm not sure how you jumped from "the rules in place can make it somewhat problematic and difficult to express disapproval of bad behavior, thus discouraging participation of those at who that bad behavior is directed" to "murder anyone who is annoying".

You complained that people were allowed to say ignorant things without swift retribution.

Nope, I definitely did not say that. Not even close. What I did say was that there is often no appropriate way to express disapproval of ignorant ideas.

Stop trying to read between the lines, you are making up boogeymen to freak out at.

I was explaining that this is a foundation of a free and open society where the offensive have a place at the table too, same as the weak or few.

Ok, whatever? I agree?

So you're just disappointed that you can't call offensive people shit heads?

No? Lightknight, seriously, can you stop jumping to the absolute most extreme situation possible instantly? "expressing disapproval" =/= "You are a shit head".

Why do you think that gives anyone and advantage or disadvantage?

The ignorant often out number the people who are willing to correct them, and a well thought out counter post is far more difficult to write than an ignorant or blatantly bigoted comment.

People only have so much time and energy. Believe it or not, I come here to learn about and talk about video games. I have to deal with the fact that people are being ignorant in my direction. I only have so much time and energy I am willing to spend on here. A bunch of that time and energy is spent countering ignorant or blatantly bigoted comments. If it gets bad enough at some point I am just going to leave.

This gives a distinct advantage to the ignorant - it is easy to overwhelm people with ignorant comments and drive them away from the site. This is happening and it is something worth considering.

They are presenting an idea, you have the same means to turn to them and say, "Your idea is shit because...". Hell, you can even say, "You're being racist because...". Providing context brings it away from name calling and puts it into defining.

I mean, you couldn't say "You're a shit head because..." unless the person made a comment which implied that their head is somehow made from or covered in dung but you can absolutely call people out on what they're being and why their comments are wrong/offensive.

If you would like to rebuild this section taking into account that I never said I wanted to call anyone shit head I will respond to it then. Until you can stop shoving words into my mouth I am not going to bother.

What would you like to be able to do that you cannot currently do? Just click a button that looks like a down thumb? Why do you feel like that is particularly powerful? Why is it more powerful than explaining why the person is wrong and hopefully enlightening someone through the magic that is social discourse?

It is powerful because it means that the means to express disapproval of bigotry is no more difficult that expressing ignorance and bigotry.

And again, since you just can't seem to actually read my post, I never said the escapist should definitely implement such a system - just that it is worth considering the effect the current system is having and consider if another system might be better.

However, on a message board you have a distinct advantage of being able to block confirmed jerk-faces and thereby being entirely able to avoid them if you so desire. How does that not meet your qualifications of being able to avoid some such asshat?

First off, because 95% of the time that person might be a perfectly cool person I like to talk about video games with. I don't automatically assume that ignorance or even blatant bigotry confirms a person as someone completely not worth interacting with. Most people who are ignorant or even bigoted are good people at heart just with some shitty views.

Second, because my ignoring the user is not a challenge to it - the community at large does not see the comment being called out as bad and so the community might think that it is an ok thing to say. "Person X said a thing and no one seemed to mind, so it must be ok, right?" This is where community give and take actually is - we all contribute to the culture of the community, we all learn from each other.

The whole point I was trying to make was that in the current setup and rules there is no ability to make an appropriate level of response. I can't just say "Not cool" or downvote and drop it. I have to make a discussion out of it when there really is no discussion to be had or I have to shut up about it and say nothing. I don't want to make a big deal about some stupid thing someone said because it almost never is a big deal. I want to make a very small deal about it. But I can't, and that can make it exhausting being on these forums and it can make them seem more hostile than they actually are. I think that is something to consider.

But you can literally say "not cool" as long as you explain what they're saying is ignorant. That's just due to there being a low content post rule (that is rarely enforced). The rules do not prohibit you from criticizing what is said. You just can't call someone a fucktard and not get dinged. Neither can they.

Perhaps you're just not familiar with the rules? They basically just don't want you to levy direct insults at the other users. You can disagree, strongly and with attitude. No one is stopping that. Like you and I are doing right now. I'm just not going to call you a cotton-headed ninny muggins and you're not going to call me dummy dumb-drops and we'll be fine.[/quote]

Again, if you would care to rewrite this actually responding to what I said instead of what you imagined I said, I will respond then.

No one is making you do followup posts after one explaining your thoughts. And here's an idea, if it's such a damn crucifixion to explain your thoughts in a sentence or to then just don't respond. You have the same power anyone else does whenever you make a comment.

I shouldn't have to explain why claiming trans people are so mentally incompetent they should not be trusted with a pair of scissors is "not cool". What am I going to say to that? "I am trans, and I have managed to never stab out my eyes with scissors!" It is ridiculous.

And as I explained several times, which you would know if you actually read my posts, the problem is not responding normalizes that behavior. I have been on forums where people just don't bother responding. They go to hell quick, and I am not interested in being on a forum like that.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

But this site's community is infamous for arguing with itself about how some person's comment is sexist/bigoted/naive/etc. You are talking like people are able to just say what they want and :
1. Have zero feedback from the community, telling them that it is wrong/unacceptable. Which is demonstrably wrong with this site. The regulars here thrive on that kind of shit.

Sometimes on some issues. Other times blatantly bigoted comments never get called out. I provided a clear example of one such comment that happened not two weeks ago.

2. Have zero repurcussions. Again, demonstrably wrong in a lot of cases.

Blatantly bigoted behavior, even behavior against the rules such as directly insulting an entire group of people, often goes unchallenged and without moderation. I am not sure what else to say here, I even provided a direct example. Maybe you don't notice it happening, but I certainly do.

As most of the obvious, intentional asshats that have posted on this forum in the past, have been banned. Hell some of them don't even make it one day before they get banned, their content is so toxic. Why? Because people reported their unacceptable comments to the moderators, who investigated, and took action. So I don't really see where you're getting this "the little guy has no voice here, and can't challenge when people are being mean to them". Because that's just not the case.

Can you go back and reread my initial post lightknight responded to? I wrote my second post in the context of my first.

See, the problem is not that the little guy has no voice at all, it is that the little guy has to shoulder a significant burden correcting this behavior, let the community go to hell in relation to that group, or just leave. The current system discourages "the little guy" from bothering with the escapist.

The whole point I was trying to make was that in the current setup and rules there is no ability to make an appropriate level of response. I can't just say "Not cool" or down vote and drop it. I have to make a discussion out of it when there really is no discussion to be had or I have to shut up about it and say nothing. I don't want to make a big deal about some stupid thing someone said because it almost never is a big deal. I want to make a very small deal about it. But I can't, and that can make it exhausting being on these forums and it can make them seem more hostile than they actually are. I think that is something to consider.

What would down voting accomplish? Seriously, all that says is "I don't like this comment." It has no context about why you don't like it. If it's hostile, or abusive, or bigoted. People can dislike a comment for something as simple as "I don't like Force Awakens, and this guy is gushing about how awesome it is." there is zero context to a like/dislike system, making it effectively pointless. Also, if you don't want to make a big deal out of it, what does making a little deal out of it accomplish? Again, it isn't really stating anything about why it's "not cool." Why should they investigate something that is "eh, not a big deal", if that's all you indicate? That seems contrary to the very thing you want to accomplish.

Because I shouldn't have to explain why claiming trans people as a group are so mentally incompetent they should not be allowed to hold a pair of scissors is not cool. Because people can be asses and not realize how much of an ass they are being. And if this asshole behavior is not commented on it is normalized as acceptable.

This is why every group on this forum is convinced every other group on the forum is so damned oversensitive, the system in place often requires an over reaction or no reaction, and often, as you have noted, people are unwilling to let a bad comment go by unchallenged. This causes escalation, which causes flame threads, which contributes to the somewhat deserved reputation that the escapist forums are overtly hostile.

And actually you can just say "Not cool", and then drop it. That at least expresses your dislike, and why. I've had people dislike things I've said on youtube, and it hasn't effected me in the slightest.

That is what we call a low content post, which we are not allowed to do and for which I have received warnings in the past.

So again, I'm confused how you will accomplish the goal you want, with the actions you want implemented. It doesn't seem like they would actually accomplish anything significant, which would basically mean that everything would stay the same. I mean you directly said " I want to be able to not make a big deal about it." Well ok, if it's not a big deal, why should it be looked into?

Because many cases of "not a big deal" can make up together a very big deal. 1 transphobic comment is easily ignored. 100 are not.

And finally, can you actually read my post? I didn't say we should actually implement a downvote system. I said that the current in place system is flawed and it is worth considering if some other system or some tweaks might be an improvement. I didn't even say it should be changed, only that it should be considered.

 

[Barbas]

I didn't really think of that perspective, suddenly having people wheedle and whine at you. Sorry to hear that it fundamentally changed your experience of the site.

Eh, it's not so bad. Like I said, you gotta know your limits. On the plus side, I've met some nice people, and it's broadened my understanding and perspective.

 

[Barbas]

All of that sounds uncomfortably like growing up...

I think it's part of it, like a lot of things are, but you can't really count on people having gone through them.

 

[Lightknight]

Why do you think that gives anyone and advantage or disadvantage?

The ignorant often out number the people who are willing to correct them, and a well thought out counter post is far more difficult to write than an ignorant or blatantly bigoted comment.

People only have so much time and energy. Believe it or not, I come here to learn about and talk about video games. I have to deal with the fact that people are being ignorant in my direction. I only have so much time and energy I am willing to spend on here. A bunch of that time and energy is spent countering ignorant or blatantly bigoted comments. If it gets bad enough at some point I am just going to leave.

This gives a distinct advantage to the ignorant - it is easy to overwhelm people with ignorant comments and drive them away from the site. This is happening and it is something worth considering.

I understand what you are saying, I don't understand how you think it is an advantage. Did the ignorant person not have to sit down and type out their idiocy the same as a person would have to type out a response?

I mean, am I the only person that pictures some sad hillbilly peck and pawing at a keyboard laboriously for an hour just to express their insane belief that the "darkies ain't people" or some such nonsense? Countering a comment like that doesn't take more work than making it. They've already provided the constraints of the discussion and now all you have to do is respond. I mean, someone saying something that incredibly racist wouldn't warrant much of a response but I think saying, "That's horribly racist and you should be ashamed of saying it" would be perfectly justified in the forum.

If you would like to rebuild this section taking into account that I never said I wanted to call anyone shit head I will respond to it then. Until you can stop shoving words into my mouth I am not going to bother.

I will admit to misunderstanding part of your original intention. I thought the original complaint was that the people can say something offensive about a group but you cannot say something offensive back. It thought you were just taking up where Lil Devil's left off in a previous discussion in the thread. I did not realize the complaint was that making a cogent counter-point takes effort. I'm not sure laziness (if that's what it is, your specification of your own issue at hand sheds light that the effort may be more so enduring having to defend who you are than the time taken to type a response) is an adequate reason to want a way to respond to someone without explaining yourself. That's more of a reason to just ignore that person (the one you said is cool 95% of the time) 5% of the time.

Do you think a vote up or vote down button would actually achieve any of your goals? The ignorant can still vote too and like you said, they outnumber you.

It is powerful because it means that the means to express disapproval of bigotry is no more difficult that expressing ignorance and bigotry.

I'm unsure how you feel that responding to someone's comment is more tedious than them creating the original comment from scratch? Do you believe that people you disagree with are better typists or more coherent thinkers than you? Because that would be an awfully bad assumption to make. I would posit that it is more difficult to fill up a blank sheet of paper than it is to respond to what is already there.

I shouldn't have to explain why claiming trans people are so mentally incompetent they should not be trusted with a pair of scissors is "not cool". What am I going to say to that? "I am trans, and I have managed to never stab out my eyes with scissors!" It is ridiculous.

Ok, and I'm a man married to a trans-man if that helps put you at ease with our common background and I'm still telling you that clicking an "up vote" or a "down vote" doesn't mean shit against that kind of ignorance nor is it any form of special empowerment.

Should you "have to explain" something? No. But it is an honor to be able to speak truth where there are lies. Explaining that transgenderism is not schizophrenia or any condition that makes a person dangerous is not some great hurdle.

However, on the trans topic my bigger concern for you is with trans people having to defend themselves constantly when the group already suffers from depression. So I can kinda understand why you'd feel both the need to respond and also feel a greater burden than normal in doing so, but I'd still present this as an opportunity to have even more dialogue with the ignorant on the topic of transgenderism which is badly needed. It is a rare condition or at least one that is rarely talked about (1 in 100 or so isn't really that rare) due to the sexual nature of it and how uncomfortable American society in particular is around sex organs and sexuality. But the more it is talked about, the more it is normalized. If you cannot personally respond to someone on such a topic then I encourage you to PM me and ask me to weigh in if my line of thought is in agreement with you.

I am not strictly opposed to an up and down vote. I just happen to know that the internet is full of mob mentality rules and that frequently it does not matter what was actually said but instead who reacts to it first and if they are capable of rallying a bunch of people to punish whom they may. Imagine a situation in which an ignorant person posts ignorance and then you or someone like you responds informatively only to find themselves massively down voted. That sword cuts both ways and is still a tool for the ignorant the same as it is for the informed.

 

[Lightknight]

I didn't really think of that perspective, suddenly having people wheedle and whine at you. Sorry to hear that it fundamentally changed your experience of the site.

Eh, it's not so bad. Like I said, you gotta know your limits. On the plus side, I've met some nice people, and it's broadened my understanding and perspective.

People just PMing you out of the blue? Right now it's difficult to find who mods what and who you might want contact for particular issues. It'd be nice if that was easier to find rather than just what feels like a random list of mods. I've more frequently just gone without PMing anyone rather than bother the wrong mod for problems encountered.

Unless all you guys are jacks of all trades and it's the same to contact a mod as it is a supermod or admin... which I doubt.

 

[IceForce]

People just PMing you out of the blue?

Back when the Gamergate megathread was going at full tilt and the forum was being flooded with people joining it, I remember one of the mods at the time saying that he was receiving 'hate mail' in his inbox (from the people in that thread).

Granted, that was a unique circumstance, and (I hope) something that's relatively uncommon. (Many of the people joining for the GG megathread were from 4chan and other lass-than-savory places of the internet, so 'hate mail' doesn't really surprise me.)

Unless all you guys are jacks of all trades and it's the same to contact a mod as it is a supermod or admin... which I doubt.

"Supermod" isn't a thing, as far as I'm aware (the mods are all the same 'rank'). And admins have yellow usernames rather than blue, so they're relatively easy to spot.

 

[Barbas]

Enough. Stop derailing the thread with your arguments.

 

[Remus]

Less "Disney Princesses, REIMAGINED!" and more quizzes. I haven't gotten a new badge in an epoch or 3.

 

[sky14kemea]

People just PMing you out of the blue? Right now it's difficult to find who mods what and who you might want contact for particular issues. It'd be nice if that was easier to find rather than just what feels like a random list of mods. I've more frequently just gone without PMing anyone rather than bother the wrong mod for problems encountered.

Unless all you guys are jacks of all trades and it's the same to contact a mod as it is a supermod or admin... which I doubt.

All mods are general mods. We do have a few Mods who tend to lean more into certain sub-forums but we're all usually able to deal with any general issue.

 

[Roboshi]

I think the big one will be Original content. So far the Escapist has been on life support with videos that have been on youtube for something like 3 or 4 months (game theory is a prime example) this means either someone will have already seen it or see it and then track down the rest of their stuff on youtube rendering future updates pointless.

At it's peak the escapist had at least 3 video content creators of note and now with Jim Sterling going solo and Bob Chipman going mental, you're down to Ben Croshaw making one weekly series and this spinoff which is probably one of the laziest ideas for a show I've ever seen.

Not to mention that a decent chunk of your other content updates pretty sporadically, with the update schedule rendered mostly irrelevant. As an example you've got this superhero thing on there which hasn't updated in nearly half a YEAR (15th of september), Not that I'm complaining though as it doesn't really look that high a quality product.

 

[SilverUchiha]

A probably unreasonable demand... but...

Maybe bring back Extra Credits, Sterling, MovieBob, and LLR and pay them all what they're worth. Ever since they all left the site (I know it wasn't all at once) things just felt rather... empty here. No other personalities have really stood out or done anything to their level, making me have significantly less reasons to come to this site. Articles aren't bad, but there's no personality behind them and they're style is rather mundane. Escapist used to be fun, unique, and interesting. But now there's just nothing but list articles, reiterating news days after it happened, and less video reviews to focus on written reviews only. I imagine this is all to cut costs. But perhaps that could be fixed with better use of ads (less invasive and annoying, and more subdued) as well as more interesting figures for us to come back and watch, follow, and read about. How long til Yahtzee is gone? Because that will likely be the final nail in the coffin for Escapist and I think most of us are well aware of that.

 

[flying_whimsy]

Forgive me for not reading the other comments, but I'm just going to treat this as a suggestion box:

More than anything, I would like video reviews of games rather than the written ones. I'd also like some let's plays or something, but to maybe make it stand out try to put a bit of an escapist spin on it so it wouldn't just feel like it was ripped from youtube.

One thing I did see mentioned in the thread prior to this was more quizzes. Yes, more quizzes.

Oh, and I'd like the opinion and the news separated out a little bit more: it used to be that any editorial statements would show up at the end of the article while the main body was generally unbiased. Newer stuff feels more like I'm reading someone's opinion about a news story than the news story itself. It feels a little sloppy and runs a little counter to what the escapist was trying to stand for during gamergate.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

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