When did reading become a thing to hate?

Feb 13, 2008
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Now I'm a big anti-fan of Frank Miller, even before his laudable new work.

Whilst The Watchmen attempts to show black and white, Miller makes all heroes invulnerable and all women into whores.
Similar reasoning behind not liking Marshall Law and those people who say Wrestling is fake.

Let's get one thing straight : Four Colour Heroes and Wrestlers are Showmen, Pantomime and Carnivale rolled into one. Whilst it's easy to make jokes about the Adolescent Peter Parker's "web-fluid" and Superman having sex with Lois Lane; it detracts from the basic idea.

These guys are Heroes. They don't have to be normal; and a lot of the stuff is choreographed. This doesn't mean that they're fake, just that they're roleplaying.

Sometime in the late 80's, we lost our faith in heroes; and we've been scrambling to get it back from people like Britney, J.F.K, Princess Di and even, perhaps, Yahtzee.
(Boy he's gonna hate me for that comment)

There seems to be a thread of hatred not towards books as much as trying to improve yourself. Being the best you can be.

Granted, none of us can benchpress a car (unless it's one of those Dinky ones), but in our own way, we're all heroes of a sort. The guy who packs your bags at the supermarket...He's gonna be getting paid a naff wage and is gonna be terminally bored, but he's providing a service that no-one ever thanks him for.

(Promise to get off the soapbox in a moment)

If Khell_Sennet can get someone to read Heinlen and improve themselves, is he held as a hero or passed off as a fanboy? If Yan-Yan can get someone to try poetry, isn't that a worthy cause to fight for? You're improving someone's life.
(Sorry for namedropping you two, but you were above me)

What, I think, we lost in the 80's was the ability to be proud of other's achievements. Look at David Beckham or Sylvester Stallone or that one teacher in school that really made you think. But if you go up to them and say "Thank you.", ----->FANBOI!!!!

Tomorrow, thank someone who helped you; and help someone, even if they don't. Let's start to retake Heroes, Literacy, Poetry, Games and all the other positive things back from the Grouches.

Otherwise, we'll have nothing but Government sanctioned plastic people to look up to the day after. And everything else will be airbrushed.

Perhaps next time you see Batman, you'll think "How cool!" rather than "But that was wrong, he did this in issue #314". Would be nice. :)

[I really don't know where that came from, but hey.]
 

Geoffrey42

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Sib said:
It's not just one retard though, because most of these people could back up their statements with umpteen other examples of peoples distate for reading. I know that guy wasn't the first.
I'll see your pile of anecdotal evidence: we have a room full of people here that love reading.

And I'll raise you:
[a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.58523]Pile of anecdotal reading lovers[/a]
[a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.48201]Second pile of anecdotal reading lovers[/a]

And, ya know, we have our own contingent of drooling idiots that probably don't like reading: check the ZP threads. They haven't come in here to belittle our pile of anecdotal bibliophiles (term used loosely, for effect). You'd think we'd be shunned left and right.

Please don't get me wrong: I think it's great that we all love books. I just think the victim angle is a little overplayed?

Easykill said:
Edit: Oh, I see. I used it as an Isn't when it's supposed to be used as an Am Not, but it's commonly used my way too, so I excuse myself.
*sarcasm*If it were commonly used to slaughter kittens, would you do that too? Kids...*/sarcasm* The usage you refer to is part of the reason using it immediately labels you a redneck-idiot. I'm bringing it back!
 

Easykill

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I think the greater part of that is that it's used in a double-negative half the time and still carries the negative effect. And if ain't was used to slaughter kittens, I wouldn't be able to help myself, I would need to understand WHY it happened. Maybe it's a remnant of an ancient language of magic, where ain't meant kitten killer.....

Oh, and porchmonkey.

Edit: chickening out here, the above was in reference to Clerks and I'm totally not a racist. Just so you know.
 

Geoffrey42

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Khell_Sennet said:
-Niel Gaiman... Next to Heinlein, Gaiman is the best author IMHO. His works mesh mythology and reality in ways never seen. The novels Anansi Boys and American Gods are not to be missed.
I love Neil Gaiman. I didn't enjoy Anansi Boys as much as some of this other stuff, but American Gods is a keeper, and the short stories/poems are amazing.

Yan-Yan said:
... it may not have been the author's first (or truest) choice.
This may just be a philosophical difference in how we read, but I've never really been on board with trying to determine the author's "true" or "original" meaning. The poem means what it means to me, and that's all. If the author's goal was to convey a specific message, then I would hope that they chose the medium and the words which best conveyed said message. If they want to write something in a more vague format, which allows for greater individual interpretation, then perchance, isn't that the point?
 

Akatsuki_slave

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I think reading has been something to hate in the US for a long time. It's all part of the American movement against intellectualism. It really makes me angry, being a full time nerd and all. I love to read and I'm never without a book. Plus, I write books so I damn well better read them too. So, I'm not sure if the question should be why do people hate reading or why do people hate intellectualism? I think they go hand in hand.


The_root_of_all_evil said:
cleverlymadeup said:
my objection to english class is that they tear apart a book for some of the most trivial thing that may or may not be true. like "what is the symbolism in this chapter?"
Totally agree. Shakespear was ruined for me by having to overanalyse all his work.

On a related note, given we have some readers here:

What five books would you have on the UK/US curriculum as 'Must Reads'?
(Don't want to divert the topic that much, but it doesn't really deserve a topic of it's own)

For me...
Watchmen - Alan Moore.
Maus - Art Spiegelman
Day of the Triffids - John Wyndham
Watership Down - Richard Adams
& NightWatch - Terry Pratchett.
In HS we had to read:

The Outsiders
1984
Of Mice and Men
Huckleberry Finn (unedited, thanks)
The Picture of Dorian Grey
The Heart of Darkness
A Separate Peace (the only book we read that I hated)
and a bunch of Shakespeare.

And I still love Shakespeare, but I had some awesome S. teachers.

In college I had to read:

The Sound and the Fury (fucking amazing, if you can get through it)
All the King's Men (ditto)
LOTR (which I'd already read, of course)
The King of Elfland's Daughter (If you like fantasy, read it. Love it. Learn from it).
Plus more I don't feel like typing. You have to read a lot in college, for those of you who haven't gone yet ^_^
 

mshcherbatskaya

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EDIT: Never mind, Cheeze_Pavillion said it all, pretty much.

I will say, though, that I do think that poetry lost a lot of it's power when it because something experienced in isolation. Unlike the novel or short story, which is designed to be experienced by a lone individual, poetry was originally a spoken form where the musicality of the language, it's raw appeal to the ear, was an overt, key element in its success. I don't think it's a coincidence that we see poetry moving away from rhyme and toward a more layout-driven format shortly after the novel becomes the dominant literary form. The auditory aspect of poetry becomes less overt when it is experienced in solitary silence, and a lot of its force is lost. To get the most out of poetry, you can't just plow through it the same way you would get through a 250-page novel in a day.

Plays are at the same disadvantage. They were never designed to be experienced by a single person sitting in silence, any more than you'd get a satisfying experience from reading a screenplay.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to like poetry, I'm just noting that poetry and plays cannot be read in the same spirit and with the same approach as prose. They weren't designed to work like prose, so if you hold them up to a prose standard, of course they will fail.
 

Razzle Bathbone

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Khell_Sennet said:
BLASPHEMER! HERETIC! How dare you mock the writings of the holy Heinlein?!
/sarcasm
(grins) I was hoping I'd get one of those. Thanks, Khell. :)

And just in case anyone still thinks my opinions count for something, Asimov was a hack, too. A hack who advanced the genre considerably (as did Heinlein), but a hack nonetheless.
 

Saskwach

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Razzle Bathbone said:
Khell_Sennet said:
BLASPHEMER! HERETIC! How dare you mock the writings of the holy Heinlein?!
/sarcasm
(grins) I was hoping I'd get one of those. Thanks, Khell. :)

And just in case anyone still thinks my opinions count for something, Asimov was a hack, too. A hack who advanced the genre considerably (as did Heinlein), but a hack nonetheless.
He was a journalist? :p
 

mshcherbatskaya

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Razzle Bathbone said:
Khell_Sennet said:
BLASPHEMER! HERETIC! How dare you mock the writings of the holy Heinlein?!
/sarcasm
(grins) I was hoping I'd get one of those. Thanks, Khell. :)

And just in case anyone still thinks my opinions count for something, Asimov was a hack, too. A hack who advanced the genre considerably (as did Heinlein), but a hack nonetheless.
You just keep giving me more reasons to love you!! If I weren't under the impression that you are already spoken for, I'd invite you to join my harem.
 

stompy

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Saskwach said:
Razzle Bathbone said:
Khell_Sennet said:
BLASPHEMER! HERETIC! How dare you mock the writings of the holy Heinlein?!
/sarcasm
(grins) I was hoping I'd get one of those. Thanks, Khell. :)

And just in case anyone still thinks my opinions count for something, Asimov was a hack, too. A hack who advanced the genre considerably (as did Heinlein), but a hack nonetheless.
He was a journalist? :p
HOWS DARES YOUS?!?!?!?!? ASSIMOV KICKES UR ASSES NOOBS!!!111eleven /Fanboy-ness

No, but seriously, how does this work?

- A procrastinator
 

Pseudonym2

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If you guys really want to read a good book try the Filth By Grant Morrison. It's like taking drugs only slightly safer.
 

ayoama

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Sib said:
Thats sort of my point, because I'm only 16, the majority of people I interact with ARE the so-called young people who shun literature. These are the people who will be leading the world in a decade or so, I don't suppose you read my other thread which got locked because this is sort of linking in with it.
Alas, no, I didn't read the other thread. Anyway, I was exactly trying to determine if you were talking about people in their teens or about everyone. So, if we're talking about teenagers, my guess would be that reading became a shunnable offence pretty much when school as we know it was established. Putting anything into a competitive and overanalysing context is the last thing you need to make people love it.
 

Sib

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Geoffrey42 said:
I'll see your pile of anecdotal evidence: we have a room full of people here that love reading.
And I'll raise you:
[a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.58523]Pile of anecdotal reading lovers[/a]
[a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.48201]Second pile of anecdotal reading lovers[/a]
And, ya know, we have our own contingent of drooling idiots that probably don't like reading: check the ZP threads. They haven't come in here to belittle our pile of anecdotal bibliophiles (term used loosely, for effect). You'd think we'd be shunned left and right.
Please don't get me wrong: I think it's great that we all love books. I just think the victim angle is a little overplayed?
I do think its worth noting that the 2 piles of evidence for your point of view are from this website, and more than likely share more than a few members from this thread too ;)
But I suppose I have been playing up the victimisation side of it, although I can see reading becoming more shunned in the future. Really this thread was just a little rant of mine thats turned into a few different things:
1. Pondering on when the world stopped reading (in general
2. Guessing how long it will be before the literate are shunned
3. Quite fittingly I guess its turned into a book discussion area too.
 

Geoffrey42

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Khell_Sennet said:
Not a fan of Asimov or Herbert... Both had some original ideas and were pioneers of science fiction, but couldn't write their way out of a used condom. Still leagues ahead of Hubbard and his religious cult fanatics mind you...
I've bashed Asimov more times than I can remember... the man had great ideas, but is absolutely an atrocious author. Gah! It burns just to think about Foundation. I didn't mind 'I, Robot' as much.

Herbert, on the other hand, I really kind of enjoyed (idea-wise, and writing-style). The White Plague in particular, as I picked it up on a whim, and absolutely loved it. Returned later out of obligation to actually read Dune, and once you get past the first 3, everything starts to be kind of awesome. Just be smart: stop where the father stopped. The son is a hack.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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1. Pondering on when the world stopped reading (in general
Reading takes a lot of 'me' time. We seem to have less and less what with work, children, dependants etc.

2. Guessing how long it will be before the literate are shunned
We always have been. The trick is not to shun the illiterate but to try and let them learn the joy of reading. As has been said, English classes can quite easily be the death of a good book.
 

Sib

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
We always have been. The trick is not to shun the illiterate but to try and let them learn the joy of reading. As has been said, English classes can quite easily be the death of a good book.
Not always...and not always from everyone.
But in my english class we have been reading Of Mice and Men first, then A View from a Bridge.
God i hate them both now, Of Mice and Men is a decent book in itself but if i have to explain Georges relationship to Lennie one more time im gonna kill someone, then wear their bones as a hat!
Mind you the tearing apart of a View from a Bridge hasnt made it much worse, I hated that little play with a passion even before I had to explain some convoluted ideas about the play, can't we just accept theres no extra meaning behind EVERYTHING??