When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?

[9tailedflame]

When there's no english subtitles or dub.

 

[LK9988]

When it's good.

 

[Hades]

With what money? Good VAs are expensive. And the japanese games tend to not sell enough for the localization team to afford Nolan North or Troy Baker.

As for your last point, stop watching shit anime and playing shit JRPGs

Fun fact: Troy Baker break-through roles were in JRPG's. Before you heard him in games like the Last of Us, he was Yuri (Tales of Vesperia) and Kanji (Persona 4) to me. Heck, he's been in games much less mainstream than that, such as Mana Khemia 2! Same with Laura Bailey

Companies like Atlus, NISA and Bandai Namco are indeed working with much more limited budgets, but they do have an idea for voice talent. If something does go wrong, it usually has something to do with the material (some games just don't give voice actors all that much to work with), lack of proper direction (do not underestimate the role of the director) or time constraints (meaning lines can only be read a handful of times at most).

True but I also hear that Troy Baker flat out isn't allowed to do jrpg's anymore after he joined a union.

 

[Manawa]

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

This.
Also - Obnoxiously loud characters with ADHD, brooding badassess, lolis and MAMORU

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

All of this.

It's always felt as though Western games at least try to present some kind of versimilitude in terms of character design - psychologically, in this case, not physically. I don't mind the crazy and impractical Squaresoft designs, for instance, but I do mind the weird fixation on the "cocky ing?nue" type who saves the world despite not being out of puberty, or the way "Old Age" seems to start once you reach your thirties.

It's as if the teenage sense of invincibility were some sort of cornerstone for a lot of JRPG character designs, and any character who packs every other bit of expected JRPG Awesomesauce but somehow lacks that particular chutzpah has to fall into the "grizzled old veteran" category. There has to be a market outside of these overused Shonen tropes, right?

I mean, look at how popular Geralt of Rivia's ended up being in Europe and the US - it's clear there's some demand for settings involving mature adults.

 

[tzimize]

Depends.

If the game is supposed to be even half-way serious it gets too japanese to me when its blatantly obvious that PC costumes have been designed with cosplay, not practicality in mind. It just completely breaks my immersion and I cant take it seriously. And this is most japanese games nowadays :|

Also, their ridiculous hairstyles. The final fantasy demo where those douchebags were driving around in a convertible in the gameworld and there was some huge dinosaur/beast/something, and they fought it. It looked like they were on spring break ffs. Utterly retarded.

 

[NPC009]

True but I also hear that Troy Baker flat out isn't allowed to do jrpg's anymore after he joined a union.

It's not as if the union banned a genre, it's just that smaller companies tend to work with non-union voice actors, because they are cheaper and it's generally less of a hassle. It's the same with anime publishers.

This is one of the reasons you sometimes see a change in voice-actors between the first and second installment, or the original and the remake/upgraded port. For instance, back when Tales of Symphonia was localised, Namco used union voice actors. However, Bandai Namco uses non-union VA. Either they replace the actor entirely or find someone who sounds a lot like the first VA. In Troy Baker's case, that would be Matthew Mercer.

To make matters a little more complicated: some union voice talents do non-union work using a pseudonym. Baker probably isn't one of them. (Unless, plottwist!, he's actually Mercer.)

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

All of this.

It's always felt as though Western games at least try to present some kind of versimilitude in terms of character design - psychologically, in this case, not physically. I don't mind the crazy and impractical Squaresoft designs, for instance, but I do mind the weird fixation on the "cocky ing?nue" type who saves the world despite not being out of puberty, or the way "Old Age" seems to start once you reach your thirties.

It's as if the teenage sense of invincibility were some sort of cornerstone for a lot of JRPG character designs, and any character who packs every other bit of expected JRPG Awesomesauce but somehow lacks that particular chutzpah has to fall into the "grizzled old veteran" category. There has to be a market outside of these overused Shonen tropes, right?

I mean, look at how popular Geralt of Rivia's ended up being in Europe and the US - it's clear there's some demand for settings involving mature adults.

There is, it's called Seinen and you got stuff like Front Mission which had only one instance of a teenage protagonist in 3, but the thing is most JRPGs enjoys using teenagers because it is harder to make a teen stutter in disbelief since they are so immersed in fiction to sate their inner 10th grade imagination streak. The thing is most Otakus indulge in escapism when it comes to their hobbies, they simply don't want to be reminded how bad real life is unlike us.

 

[NPC009]

All of this.

It's always felt as though Western games at least try to present some kind of versimilitude in terms of character design - psychologically, in this case, not physically. I don't mind the crazy and impractical Squaresoft designs, for instance, but I do mind the weird fixation on the "cocky ing?nue" type who saves the world despite not being out of puberty, or the way "Old Age" seems to start once you reach your thirties.

It's as if the teenage sense of invincibility were some sort of cornerstone for a lot of JRPG character designs, and any character who packs every other bit of expected JRPG Awesomesauce but somehow lacks that particular chutzpah has to fall into the "grizzled old veteran" category. There has to be a market outside of these overused Shonen tropes, right?

I mean, look at how popular Geralt of Rivia's ended up being in Europe and the US - it's clear there's some demand for settings involving mature adults.

There is, it's called Seinen and you got stuff like Front Mission which had only one instance of a teenage protagonist in 3, but the thing is most JRPGs enjoys using teenagers because it is harder to make a teen stutter in disbelief since they are so immersed in fiction to sate their inner 10th grade imagination streak. The thing is most Otakus indulge in escapism when it comes to their hobbies, they simply don't want to be reminded how bad real life is unlike us.

Do they use that word for games? I only ever hear it used for manga.

Anyway, there's a reason most protagonists in Japanese are so young: their target audience is also young. 13-20 for many RPG series, and some skew lower. They're basically aiming for teenagers and young adults who have the time and money to indulge in these long games, and age the characters accordingly. Throw in Japan's fascination/obsession with youth, and well, you get what you get.

Did you know Star Ocean 5's protagonist is in his early twenties? That's the developers way of acknowledging that the people who played Star Ocean 3, which is seen as a highlight of the series, have grown up and may want to see older characters. Star Ocean 3 was released over a decade ago. Unless players played the game when they were in their tweens, they're probably already older than the new hero.

Japan is weird like that.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

The thing is most Otakus indulge in escapism when it comes to their hobbies, they simply don't want to be reminded how bad real life is unlike us.

I don't know - I wouldn't say I have some kind of sick fetish for horrible news or political disasters, but I'd say the Western market acknowledges that "Protagonist Saves the World" or "Protagonist Joins a Noble Cause" would involve politicking, backroom deals, stealth, treachery and, well, plenty of interactions with these unsavory corners of Society you seem to suggest Otakus neglect.

Take the typical JRPG frame, for instance. "Lonely Hero Joins Motley Crew and Fights the Power Because Mystical Crap, all the while discovering the Power of Friendship".

Compare that to, say, the Mass Effect series: "Lone Soldier who was handpicked thanks to his or her specific background has to wade through clashing cultures and political agendas to Assemble a Team. Said team has to ascertain the nature of and later fight a series-spanning Big Bad that's given ample time to be properly characterized."

The Western approach has a lot more meat on its bones. Even simpler affairs like Fallout 4 are basically begging for you to take the time to take the Commonwealth's pulse, to figure out what makes the locals tick. You're not being absorbed into a group of capable individuals; you're allowed to put one foot in while keeping the other one out, so that your relative outsider's perspective gives you insight on the game's proceedings. I wouldn't say both games glorify their own problems or their characters' unenviable existences, but they do use the icky parts of life in the galaxy or the wasteland for greater effect.

I'm not saying WRPGs are better, but I will say that they offer an easier barrier of entry if you happen to no longer be in the age range JRPGs tend to shoot for. As much as I mechanically enjoy the Shin Megami Tensei series, for instance, I can't get invested in any specific title. They're fun as a set of mechanics, but I can't get invested in them. I'm a 32 year-old Canadian, so Japanese High School Hijinks couched in mysticism feel rather alien to me.

There's always the whole "window into another culture" argument, true, but the glimpse I'm offered is enough for me after an hour or two of gameplay. I'd compare that to Anime along the lines of Kill La Kill, seeing as the Japanese concept of High School clubs is alien to me. The way I went through secondary school, the journos and tabletop gaming fanatics tended to mesh and meld together with pretty much every other crowd imaginable. Antagonism was practically nonexistent.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

When is a game too "Japanese" for me?

Simple.

When it's being published by Nippon Ichi Software/NIS America and/or developed by Gust/Idea Factory/Compile Heart (with maybe a 5% exception rule).

Hyperdimension Neptunia
the Atelier games
Mugen Souls
Trinity Universe
Disgaea
Ar Tonelico
Time and Eternity
Akiba's Trip
Lost Dimension
Tears to Tiara
Arcana Heart
Fairy Fencer
Agarest

Maybe those Way of the Samurai games and Persona spin-offs are passable, I don't know, I haven't played them yet. I suppose Dragon's Crown was fairly fun. At least Vanillaware's art direction is distinguishable from all the other stuff.

I don't know, it just seems that, like, a decade and a half ago we had a lot more RPGs that weren't made up of pointless stories with bland stereotype characters and blatant fan-service to replace... well, everything. From interesting plot points and actual character development to intricate loadout/combat mechanics and original art design (instead of the n-th chibi inspired noseless conveyorbelt crap).

Sorry for the rant, I just really want another good Final Fantasy or Shadow Hearts. Maybe an actual continuation of the original Legend of Legaia, or the Chrono Cross/Trigger franchise. Still hoping for that second Lost Odyssey game as well... Hell, at this point, just give me another Legend of Dragoon, Valkyrie Profile or Mana game. I mean, what's your competition? The Tales series? They've always been ranging from 'just okay' to 'decent/good'. The only reason later installments have been praised for being 'great' is because nowadays, they pretty much have a monopoly on the genre of 'Japanese RPGs that aren't made solely to titillate pubescent kids while throwing in some screwball comedy'.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Take the typical JRPG frame, for instance. "Lonely Hero Joins Motley Crew and Fights the Power Because Mystical Crap, all the while discovering the Power of Friendship".

Recent JRPGs I've played haven't had this kind of setting. Which games have this? I'm curious.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Take the typical JRPG frame, for instance. "Lonely Hero Joins Motley Crew and Fights the Power Because Mystical Crap, all the while discovering the Power of Friendship".

Recent JRPGs I've played haven't had this kind of setting. Which games have this? I'm curious.

Things got better as time went on, but a lot of the classic Final Fantasy iterations have a setting that more or less glorifies lone-wolf protagonists while still plopping them in groups that grow more proficient the more their interpersonal relationships unfold.

 

[Frission]

とき私は、彼らが何を言っている理解できません。

(When I can't understand a single thing they're saying! I google translated so it might be saying nonsense).

I guess it also depends on how corny and/or creepy it is. I haven't played any Japanese games lately, although I'll see about some of those listed here, now that I have some more free time.

 

[NPC009]

Take the typical JRPG frame, for instance. "Lonely Hero Joins Motley Crew and Fights the Power Because Mystical Crap, all the while discovering the Power of Friendship".

Recent JRPGs I've played haven't had this kind of setting. Which games have this? I'm curious.

Things got better as time went on, but a lot of the classic Final Fantasy iterations have a setting that more or less glorifies lone-wolf protagonists while still plopping them in groups that grow more proficient the more their interpersonal relationships unfold.

This seems like a weird complaint to me, because characters interacting and forming bonds is a big part of character development. The lone wolf characters are actually kind of rare, and most of them are very well-liked among players (Yuri from Tales of Vesperia, Yuri from Shadow Hearts, Ryudo from Grandia II...). If you are going to complain about an over-used archtype, make it the 'dumb young country bumpkin bumps into maiden who holds the fate of the world in her hands, and proceeds to become the chosen one who saves the world with sword strikes and inspirational speeches'.

... Even the recent Tales games aren't doing that anymore. Well, Sorey (Zestiria) gets close, but he spends a lot of time failing because the world isn't so simple it can be fixed with some nice words and strong punches.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

Anything too overtly "anime-esque" in its visual design will tend to put me off, which is weird because I was a big anime fan in the mid 90's. These days, the only Japanese games I tend to play are fighting games (Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur; mainly because I've been playing them for 20+ years) and Soulsborne. I would, however, put aside my aversion to Japanese style games for another Tenchu.

 

[Callate]

There's a point where everyone seems to be doing the same things, and that gets tiresome. Partly it's personal, like when a song seems to be following you, but there are trends in character, background, genre etc. that seem to come in waves. That's true for western games as well, though- we've certainly had to go through our share of virtually indistinguishable titles. ("Is this Battlefield, or Call of Duty? Grand Theft Auto, True Crime, or Saint's Row? Guitar Hero, or Rock Band...?")

Beyond that, I try to keep an open mind as long as I find the underlying game play rewarding. There's a certain whiff of cultural imperialism in assuming that another nation's media is inferior simply in the way that they're not your nation's media, or at least from the nations that share your nation's "handbook", so to speak.

Japanese media can be weird to me, sometimes, sure. Sometimes very weird. (I quickly came to the conclusion that watching more than about 15 minutes of something like "FLCL" was likely to give me a screaming migraine.) But there's something to be said for trying out something different, and not merely different in a tiresome art-student "look at me, I'm breaking all the rules" way.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

I'm afraid that eastern games in a relatively western style like Resident Evil or Guild Wars are about as "Japanese" as I get. I have an incredibly strong aversion to animu bullshit. Although as the guy a few posts up said, I'd make an exception for a new Tenchu game.

My allergy is already so strongly developed that I even couldn't force myself to pay Guild Wars 2 (quite mild resemblance) for more than a week, due to "that" vibe it was constantly giving me.

Good Lord...someone even more allergic than me.

 

[hentropy]

I play some Japanese games in Japanese, but even then I don't like certain kinds of Japanese games. It's important to note that Japan is not a monolithic people with monolithic taste even in the "Otaku" arena, there are plenty of games that may seem to check all the boxes that Japanese people themselves see as boring/lackluster. When most people report on these things it's usually in the veins of "I read a comment on a message board and fed it through Google Translate and here's what they thought." Many of the games we see as shit, they may think are dumb as well. Sometimes not.

But that's where I usually draw the line, very generic and paint-by-number stories/games with generic unlikable protagonists in some kind of generic harem setup. That's not really too "Japanese", though, it's just crap, just like uncreative paint-by-numbers western crap is not the only thing the west offers.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Snip

You bring up a good point but one problem I tend to have with fanservice is that it often doesn't fit. The souls in Sunless Sea fit the tone of the game. In quite a bit of my experience, there's a fair chunk of fanservice that just doesn't fit. For example, any major time there's supposed to be a serious battle and they give me gianaxing, it takes me out of the story. For example, when I was watching Gundam SEED and that happened with the main captain all of the freaking time, even in the battle where the "good guys" decide to use a kill sat to wipe out the enemy army and don't care that it causes a massive friendly fire incident in a show that almost always takes itself super seriously. The fanservice that they give to us there REALLY doesn't fit, clashes with the tone. There were a couple of instances in the show where there was fanservice that actually fit the tone of the story (like when one character sleeps with another to manipulate him) but aside from that, a rather grim series that presents itself as rather hard and depressing doesn't feel like the place for fanservice

Kill la Kill on the other hand, that's a show where the fanservice actually makes sense. It fits the tone of the show goofy as hell, off the rails and in a world of absolute insanity. It has its serious moments too, but unlike SEED its positioned itself to be in a place where the serious moments and the fanservice can actually blend together well. Ironically in my experience with fanservice is that it's rather...soulless. They try and tell a regular story and they just cram it in without any rhyme or reason. It almost feels like a tacked on multiplayer mode. Nothing is really DONE with it. Fanservice can actually ADD to the story if it just does one of the following

-Fit a character's personality

-Fit a world's tone

-Be used to set a mood

And probably other ways I can't think of at the moment. Just throwing it in there where it doesn't fit just clashes with the tone. To go back to Sunless Sea, it'd be like if you had to sell souls in a game that isn't as delightfully bleak as Sunless Sea, like Kirby. (What do we do with those souls again? I know the Devils like them but that's the only reason hinted at)

Oh, nobody is saying that it can't be poorly used. ANYTHING can be poorly used.

Look at Hatred. It made itself grim, gritty and dark and marketed itself on that image to the point of inadvertent parody. Horror films also have something of a reputation for having a problem with this because if they don't build the setting right and end up putting the wrong things in for the tone of it and taking certain things too far they just become utterly hilarious and anachronistic. I don't like horror much but I seem to remember finding the awful Silent Hill movie incredibly funny because of how ridiculously over the top it was in trying to scare people with something of a gore-fest towards the end.

But its important to highlight that blanket accusations of "durr fanservice bad and immature" are absolutely absurd and frankly a little hypocritical if people otherwise are equally happy to ignore (or even enjoy) over-the-top violence in virtually all of their games.

Hell, you bring up a great example yourself. Kill La Kill actually CALLS OUT critics of fanservice and makes that calling out a plot point in episode 3. Challenging the viewers critical of it about their prudishness and encouraging people to simply accept it and enjoy the characters and story. The point is there is nothing inherently wrong with it.