When is a MacGuffin not a MacGuffin?

[IOwnTheSpire]

I've heard people calling the Orb from Guardians of the Galaxy a MacGuffin, but from the definitions I've read about the MacGuffin (something that drives the plot and nothing else), the orb would be a Plot Device (since it actually does something that's crucial in the narrative, I won't spoil it here).

I would recommend reading the TvTropes definition of MacGuffin before replying, but the question is in the title: When is a MacGuffin not a MacGuffin?

 

[tippy2k2]

To my knowledge from my film minor days, there is one easy way to tell the difference between a MacGuffin and what's not a MacGuffin:

If the object that you are chasing could be changed to anything else and it would not change the movie in any way, then you are chasing a MacGuffin.

The orb is not a MacGuffin because it becomes pretty damn important in the plot.

 

[Veylon]

The TVTropes definitions asks "Is is interchangeable?" and "Does it do anything in the story?" as the tests. Which are really the same question, when you get right down to it. So any non-MacGuffin must either be unique story-wise or functional.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The Orb is definitely a MacGuffin.

If you really want to define MacGuffin, go all the way back to the guy that coined the term. Alfred Hitchcock defined it as "the thing the characters are after" and " the thing the characters on the screen worry about but the audience don't care".

The microfilm in 39 Steps and North By Northwest, the letters of transit in Casablanca, the diamonds in Reservoir Dogs, the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, Rabbit's Foot in Mission Impossible III, whatever Indiana Jones is after (ark, stone, goblet, skull), etc. In Marvel's case, the Cube, the Orb, the Aether and whatever Thing they throw next are MacGuffins.

It's what characters are after or fight over. The point is you could replace it with pretty much anything and it wouldn't matter. The Orb could be The Rectangle and it could turn people inside out or create a black hole or reunite the cast of Friends, it doesn't matter. The important thing is both the good guys and the bad guys want it. End story.

To answer your ending question, a MacGuffin is NOT a MacGuffin when it doesn't guide the plot. Lightsabers in Star Wars? Not MacGuffins. The necklace in Titanic? Not really a MacGuffin as it doesn't guide the good guys' actions (their love does), just the bad guy's. The rug in Big Lebowski? Starts off as one but ends up as an excuse to kick the plot off rather than guide it.

 

[Alfador_VII]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot. It's not about what the object can or cannot do, it's about its function in the narrative structure of the story.

 

[Robot Number V]

It looks like this thread is developing two different definitions of "Macguffin".

It's either something that all the characters want because it has the power to effect the plot of the movie, or it's something that the characters want, but doesn't actually serve a specific purpose in the story (other than that people want it).

After a quick Wikipedia search, this appears to be (in a nutshell) the two definitions of the term used by Alfred Hitchcock and George Lucas respectively. Hitchcock created the term to describe an object effects the plot in only one way: The characters want it. Nothing else about it is important. Lucas, on the other hand, thought Macguffins should be really powerful objects that will effect the plot differently depending on whoever gets it.

Now, considering they made a joke in the movie comparing the orb to other famous Macguffins, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the guys who made the movie went with Lucas's definition.

PS: Isn't a Macguffin a type of plot device?

 

[Shadowstar38]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot.

You merely described a plot device. Sense the orb actually impacts the story, it falls outside of being a mcguffin.

PS: Isn't a Macguffin a type of plot device?

Yeah. It looks like it's one of those "not all rectangles are squares" type deals.

 

[Alfador_VII]

I went back to my usual source of information on this, TV Tropes, and it's page on Macguffins.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin

First part, Is it Interchangeable. Well for the first half of the movie, yes it is. None of the characters directly involved with it, know what it is, or why people want it so badly, so it could be literally anything. However this changes.

The second part of thier definition is more pertinent

"Does it do anything, and if it does, is it ever actually used in story?"

Well yes it quite definitely does a LOT of stuff, and yes it's used more than once in the story, but it does count as a Plot Device.

And yes a Macguffin is a type of plot device, but not all plot devices are Macguffins

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot.

You merely described a plot device.

A MacGuffin IS a plot device. A device that moves the plot forward by driving the characters' actions.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot.

You merely described a plot device.

A MacGuffin IS a plot device. A device that moves the plot forward by driving the characters' actions.

Yeah. I know that. But the orb counts as one but not the other. If it actually effects the story outside of "I want this", it's no longer a Mcguffin.

Likewise, just read post 9. He puts in clearer terms.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot.

You merely described a plot device.

A MacGuffin IS a plot device. A device that moves the plot forward by driving the characters' actions.

Yeah. I know that. But the orb counts as one but not the other. If it actually effects the story outside of "I want this", it's no longer a Mcguffin.

There's a difference between "affecting" a story and guiding it. For the intents of defining "MacGuffin", it doesn't matter if you use it to kill the bad guy at the end or not. Take every MacGuffin Indiana Jones ever goes after: they invariably end up killing the bad guys and wrapping up the movies. But they fit the definition because they guide the plot and the characters' actions.

Again, I'm just going by Hitchcock's definition. TvTropes is a fun joke dictionary and I will quote it occasionally for the lolz but I would never use it as hardcore bibliography.

 

[Something Amyss]

Again, I'm just going by Hitchcock's definition.

Are you?

It might be a Scottish name, taken from a story about two men on a train. One man says, "What's that package up there in the baggage rack?" And the other answers, "Oh, that's a MacGuffin". The first one asks, "What's a MacGuffin?" "Well," the other man says, "it's an apparatus for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands." The first man says, "But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands," and the other one answers, "Well then, that's no MacGuffin!" So you see that a MacGuffin is actually nothing at all.

I'm not so sure you are.

You appear to be using George Lucas' definition, which fits, because you're using George Lucas' examples.

 

[Fox12]

Well no that orb is definitely not just a Macguffin, it has actual function in the story of the movie, several major scenes were caused directly by it.

It does more than guide the plot, it actually does stuff.. quite definitely.

Take it out and replace it with a solid gold ball, or a crystal skull or something, movie doesn't play out as it did any more.

It is the very definition of MacGuffin. It's an object that serves as an excuse for the good guys and the bad guys to do everything they do and motivates every action that advances the plot. It's not about what the object can or cannot do, it's about its function in the narrative structure of the story.

Pretty much this. The orb is absolutely a macguffin. The Macguffin drives the plot, and it may or may not be important other than that. Maybe the characters want something because its worth money. Maybe the object gives unlimited power, or is a type of weapon. I would argue that macguffin can even be a person if the person has no personality. Little kids in action movies, for instance, fall into this quite often. It could be the ring of power, the all spark, the necklace from Castle in the Sky, the stone from Guardians, or some secret documents holding information. It doesnt matter why the characters want it. All the matters is that they want it. most of the definitions given are far too narrow. To say that a Macguffin isn' plot relevant is a little bit silly. OF COURSE it'll be plot relevant, since the plot pretty much revolves around it. This can be done poorly, or it can be done well, but it's still macguffin. I would look at it this way. If you took the object out, would there still be a plot? If not, it's probably a macguffin.

 

[Vivi22]

The Orb is definitely a MacGuffin.

If you really want to define MacGuffin, go all the way back to the guy that coined the term. Alfred Hitchcock defined it as "the thing the characters are after" and " the thing the characters on the screen worry about but the audience don't care".

Sorry, but by your own quoted definition you are wrong. Because while the audience may not initially care about the orb, it's importance and power is later made apparent and what it is able to do is very important to the audience understanding the story. Since it isn't something the audience won't care about, it's not a MacGuffin.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

When its a MacGruffin.

Because lets face it, only a crime fighting, duster wearing hound dog can replace a MacGuffin.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Again, I'm just going by Hitchcock's definition.

Are you?

Yes I am.

http://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/alfred-hitchcock-defines-a-macguffin

You can also check out the book The Cinema According to Hitchcock.

Sorry, but by your own quoted definition you are wrong. Because while the audience may not initially care about the orb, it's importance and power is later made apparent and what it is able to do is very important to the audience understanding the story.

No it's not. What it can or cannot do is irrelevant. If the good guys get it, they win. If the bad guys get it, they win. It doesn't matter what it is.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yes I am.

And at the point of "the audience don't care," your own source would further seem to prove you wrong.

And then he goes on to use the same quote I offered.

Not exactly helping your case.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I've heard people calling the Orb from Guardians of the Galaxy a MacGuffin, but from the definitions I've read about the MacGuffin (something that drives the plot and nothing else), the orb would be a Plot Device (since it actually does something that's crucial in the narrative, I won't spoil it here).

I would recommend reading the TvTropes definition of MacGuffin before replying, but the question is in the title: When is a MacGuffin not a MacGuffin?

A MacGuffin is not a MacGuffin when it is introduced as a result of the plot.

A MacGuffin is a MacGuffin when it is there at the beginning of the story. to drive the plot.



Think of a MacGuffin as a "reverse Dues Ex Machina"
A Dues Ex Machina shows up at the end (Often times for no reason) to resolve the plot
A MacGuffin shows up at the beginning (Often times for no reason) to kick off the plot

What it does or doesn't do during the course of the plot doesn't effect whether or not it is a MacGuffin or not
I haven't seen Guardians of the Galaxy yet so I don't know about the orb, but if it's just, like sitting there at the beginning of the movie it's a MacGuffin.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

It sounds like some people want the word to have a pejorative meaning, and that's what it comes down to. Hitchcock seems to have used the word to label something that is useful in filmmaking (since he himself used it), and nothing more. It's not surprising that it has developed into something for fans to squabble over, because if there's one thing fans love doing it's squabbling.