WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO!

Owyn_Merrilin

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JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
I don't understand your argument.
The edited comic makes fun of the black guy for betraying his own position that race isn't important. That makes no sense because the black guy never says race isn't important. He just throws that back in the other guy's face after the other guy said it.

thenoblitt said:
I never said that the article was the proof, I said this article is pretty non biased and lays everything out.
Then why did you provide it, if it doesn't prove any of the assertions you make? Are you just trying to change the subject and hoping I'll drop the question?

Owyn_Merrilin said:
Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.
We're not talking about the strip any more, are we? Because the black dude in the strip wasn't trying to have it both ways. That's the people he was arguing with trying to do that; they're the ones saying race doesn't matter, so it therefore matters if a character turns black.
Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm. The people /against/ casting those actors as those characters (and similar situations with other characters in other movies) were upset about the race being swapped, the people who were /for/ it usually said something along the lines of "well the race doesn't matter anyway." The edit is poking fun about the way most of those people only seem to think that the race doesn't matter for /white/ characters, for minority characters it's suddenly very important.

Basically both the comic and the edit rely on you having some background knowledge about a certain subset of the shitstorms that have hit nerd culture in the last few years.

Edit: I do see where the confusion comes from, but I don't think he was supposed to be quoting the other guy's argument. I think he had either managed to get the other guy to concede that the race wasn't an important part of whatever character they were discussing, or he was just going with it for the sake of argument. It's definitely something you need prior knowledge to get.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Shadowstar38 said:
Trilligan said:
Shadowstar38 said:
Trilligan said:
But yeah. We're in total agreement. And hey, it was even topical. Bonus points for us.
Are you being reasonable and tolerant in this thread? WTF! Stop ruining it for the rest of us!
Um . . . . um . . . .

We were saying it was okay for an originally white character to have a black incarnation, so that makes us race traitors and hypocrites?


Is that better?
That is acceptable.

Also, I've been considering something. If race doesn't matter, and you then change the race, isn't it purely an asthetic change? How I'm I suppose to relate to the character any better when everything else stays the same? It's like the dudes with tits thing when we talk about adding female characters.
Well, let me say as a:
1:female

2:lesbian

3:asian-white mix leaning heavy o the asian

4:living in the southern United States. Ever had someone utter something racist at you as you walked by them?

5:in an area where there was 1 other remotely asian person my age, the rest being largely white or black. I'm talking in a school of 1500, there were 2 people that could be called asian, and after transferring to another school being the OLNY asian in the entire school of several hundred.
Even having grown up I only see asian people working in asian restaraunts. It's weird.

6:in a heavily christian state where, litterally you can't drive 2 miles in some areas without running into a church, some right across the street from another. They make starbucks look modest. And I'm not religious. <.<
(In short there's probably not a word to describe just how much of a minorty I am. :p Mind you this isn't a grab at pity, it's to show my position better.)

I can safely say that one should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEEEEEEER underestimate the power of inclusion. Even something token can boost a person's morale!

Way I figure it, if you (Aimed at Devs) can cater to minority, do it. Not because you have to, but because you want to, and no one should try and stop you. After all, we're all people, we're all aesthetically different, aren't we?
 

JimB

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Specter Von Baren said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Specter Von Baren said:
Tried several times to figure out what you're saying but it just doesn't make any sense to me.
I guess we'll have to leave it there, then, since I cannot think of a simpler way to put this.

Owyn_Merrilin said:
Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm.
That might be the case of the edited comics people have been slinging about, but it's pretty clearly not the case in the issue of Critical Miss, where the black guy is arguing in favor of changing some dude's race and people are refusing to on the grounds that it doesn't matter before backpedaling and explaining why it matters. I mention that because I wonder if we've been talking about different things this whole time, or what.
 

EvilRoy

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JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?
Think about it this way:

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why should I go back and redo this modelling/drawing/writing work to make him black?"

Its one thing if the conversation is in reference to a concept phase where someone could conceivably change any detail at any time and not really have to redo any work, but once ink is on paper you are asking a person to change a bunch of already done work to accommodate a change to something that has already been defined as not mattering. The comic - either the edit or the original - is not clear what stage the idea is in. Furthermore making the change even at the concept phase could be seen as condescending. "Sure fine whatever I'll make him black if it'll make you stop whining about it, now shut up I need to work on the parts of the story that actually do matter."
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Specter Von Baren said:
Tried several times to figure out what you're saying but it just doesn't make any sense to me.
I guess we'll have to leave it there, then, since I cannot think of a simpler way to put this.

Owyn_Merrilin said:
Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm.
That might be the case of the edited comics people have been slinging about, but it's pretty clearly not the case in the issue of Critical Miss, where the black guy is arguing in favor of changing some dude's race and people are refusing to on the grounds that it doesn't matter before backpedaling and explaining why it matters. I mention that because I wonder if we've been talking about different things this whole time, or what.
EvilRoy said:
JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?
Think about it this way:

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why should I go back and redo this modelling/drawing/writing work to make him black?"

Its one thing if the conversation is in reference to a concept phase where someone could conceivably change any detail at any time and not really have to redo any work, but once ink is on paper you are asking a person to change a bunch of already done work to accommodate a change to something that has already been defined as not mattering. The comic - either the edit or the original - is not clear what stage the idea is in. Furthermore making the change even at the concept phase could be seen as condescending. "Sure fine whatever I'll make him black if it'll make you stop whining about it, now shut up I need to work on the parts of the story that actually do matter."
Except you have the starting phrase wrong. It's an obvious reference to the arguments over things like, again, Idris Elba as Heimdall, where one side would say "they shouldn't cast a black actor, because the character has always been white." And the other side says "But the race was never a big part of the character, so why does it matter if he's black now?" Then this comic jumps in halfway through the argument, where the guy with the second position has apparently managed to get the guy with the first position to concede that the race didn't matter.

Why am I so sure of this? Because I actually follow the discussions on these forums, and this whole comic is an obvious satire of some of the really common ones.
 

Specter Von Baren

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JimB said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?[/quote]

I wasn't aware we were fighting about it.
 

EvilRoy

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
Snip - Quote tag issues I think -

Except you have the starting phrase wrong. It's an obvious reference to the arguments over things like, again, Idris Elba as Heimdall, where one side would say "they shouldn't cast a black actor, because the character has always been white." And the other side says "But the race was never a big part of the character, so why does it matter if he's black now?" Then this comic jumps in halfway through the argument, where the guy with the second position has apparently managed to get the guy with the first position to concede that the race didn't matter.

Why am I so sure of this? Because I actually follow the discussions on these forums, and this whole comic is an obvious satire of some of the really common ones.
From my perspective it doesn't really matter where the starting point of the conversation was, the person who wants the item changed is wrong and creating extra work for no reason. As I interpret the conversation the person we actually see talking is requesting the change, you on the other hand feel you are able to accurately extrapolate backwards to the starting point of the conversation. The difference? I choose to base my statements on what I can see as it is, you seek to interpret the situation based on your understanding of the context of the website. One is not necessarily better than the other, but they can't really reconcile.
 

ThreeName

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cricket chirps said:
So can I just give a quick congratulations to Cory and Grey for creating an article that I believe now has more comments than any other on the Escapist?

Because, yea, I have to say congrats here. Hope this whole conversation doesn't get brought up to you guys at the Expo this year.
*cough*

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.166417-Old-Games-you-remember-playing-but-cant-remember-the-name-of

Not quite, champ :p
 

Epicspoon

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JonB said:
*Casually strolls into thread, holding Banhammer*

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread? Oh? Weatherman calls for a shitstorm?

I'll stick around and watch, you know, just in case.
*Insert comment violating every single rule here*
 

Warachia

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JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?
I'm not sure that it's so much them not caring but still fighting for it, and more that they want to know why anybody cares enough to make the change in the first place if it doesn't matter.

I'm in the same boat as Specter, so maybe you can help me understand why some people change it simply for the sake of changing it.

If you said that you wanted to change a character to a black character because you think there aren't enough non-white super heroes on the big screen and you're using it to represent a minority then it would make sense, if you say that you're doing it because they were the best candidate for the role then skin colour really wouldn't matter, but changing it for literally no reasoning besides changing it makes no sense, and that's why some people (including me) are confused.
 

Hat Man

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"If race doesn't matter then why not make the character black"

If race doesn't matter then why not make the character white?

That simplistic logic works both ways.
 

jamesbrown

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I have no idea what anyone said in this forum, but I am sure this wont be read and there are some essay long fights going on about -isms; so as a light-hearted individual I am going to lighten the mood a bit.
And many more at [link]http://www.reddit.com/r/aww/[/link]
 

Kei Kaemon

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Hat Man said:
"If race doesn't matter then why not make the character black"

If race doesn't matter then why not make the character white?

That simplistic logic works both ways.
Don't tell them that, they need their strawman argument.

Frankly this whole comic is disgusting, it's meant to take the extreme of something and make it offensive, okay up until they go and make a Zimmerman joke and just blindly kill a guy... Then again what can I expect from these people? They're mildly decent comics at best, if they were actually good they wouldn't be on the escapist.
 

Paradoxrifts

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For those on either side who claim that race, gender or sexuality don't ever matter when it comes to their preference in media consumption, I'd sure like to have a look in their porn collection so that I can prove them wrong.

Warachia said:
If you said that you wanted to change a character to a black character because you think there aren't enough non-white super heroes on the big screen and you're using it to represent a minority then it would make sense, if you say that you're doing it because they were the best candidate for the role then skin colour really wouldn't matter, but changing it for literally no reasoning besides changing it makes no sense, and that's why some people (including me) are confused.
Because the truth is that ultimately it does matter, and in my opinion anyone who claims otherwise is lying, either to you or themselves, or ignorant. I accept no other alternative. Before I go on, it is important here to realise that although smaller films made on a tighter budget offer a better return on investment, the industry itself is perhaps fatally addicted to the work which is generated by massively-budgeted high profile films. While this approach was certainly never efficient it did work well enough when companies had a much easier time accessing capital than they presently do. This hard scrabble for capital means that there is more pressure than ever for the companies behind the US movie industry to minimise loses, and maximise profits. Which leads us back to Heimdall. Whether anyone necessarily likes it or not, casting a black man for the role generates more ticket sales then the few ticket sales it loses. And that is really all there is to it. The same underlying principles also work to make the majority of the protagonists of mega-budget Hollywood films handsome straight white men.
 

Basement Cat

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jamesbrown said:
I have no idea what anyone said in this forum, but I am sure this wont be read and there are some essay long fights going on about -isms; so as a light-hearted individual I am going to lighten the mood a bit.
DITTO!!! I desperately feel the need for DANCING KITTENS!!!



Geez, by chance I managed to see this comic when it was first posted and just before going to work and I...

...well..I didn't get the "Zimmerman" reference.

I had 2 minutes before I needed to go to work and chose to pop the Comments (all 12 of them at the time) and noted that everyone was saying that "A Shit Storm Was Coming".

NOW on my first day off in a week and---

35 PAGES?!?!?

It took me several minutes to grasp the "Zimmerman" factor involved in this strip. I'm often slow that way, sure, but...

*shrugs*

...

35 pages, folks...

I DON'T know what's been said since the first dozen comments on this thread but...seriously...35 pages?

*sighs*

On Topic:

I grok the guy's point about racism. I don't know where Grey and Carter were going with the "Bus Card" bit. But "Zimmerman Mode, Activate!!!"? That's poor taste, Grey.

Grey Carter said:
I honestly think I know what I'm doing. I certainly intend well.
I'm talking "Old School". I'm older than you, btw. Whatever your point of view on this polarizing subject...it was in poor taste. I remember watching the L.A. riots LIVE on T.V. in my college years, FYI....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

I grok your perspective and respect your POV and approach, but this was.........and right now I'm trying...

Tacky, and in poor taste Grey.

It's never MERELY about pointing out wrongs. Anyone can do that.

If you want society to do better than it has been doing then you have to step beyond simplistically pointing out wrongs and explain to people why some things are wrong or right rather than willfully dropping raw flame bait into the laps of TENS OF THOUSAND OF KIDS ROAMING THE INTERNET.

Think about it, Grey. You're an adult. We're both adults.


The fact that you're addressing these points in comic strip form--which is inherently limited--should only focus your approach rather than excuse them.

At least in my eyes.

For what it's worth I'll understand if you disagree with me. Bad taste, Grey. This wasn't good.

-_-
 

furai47

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JimB said:
Perhaps not by the legal definition, but by the definition of a predator following his prey, I think he did, and I use the word with a clean conscience. He decided that young boy was his prey, and my proof is, rather than leaving the supposed criminal to the police as he was instructed to do, he followed Martin and forced a confrontation.
A dispatcher cannot order or instruct you to do anything as their authority extends only as far as suggesting a course of action. Say that five times fast.

JimB said:
I have faith in my memory. If you think it's inaccurate, I invite you to link me to evidence, but as it stands, I am quite positive I've heard trial coverage explaining that the forensics do not bear out Zimmerman's story.
Given what's coming up, I don't think you remember the trial quite that clearly.

JimB said:
I don't think that bears up. Let's ask ourselves what could have been done differently to avoid this conflict.

Trayvon Martin could have not attacked George Zimmerman. That's fine, but it doesn't hold up, because if Zimmerman is justified for shooting Martin on some "stand your ground" principle, then Martin is equally (and probably more, since he didn't use a lethal weapon) justified for standing his own ground.
SYG was never invoked in the trial, because this was a simple case of self defense. Martin in this case if he survived could not have invoked SYG or self defense seeing how he assaulted Zimmerman; these two laws only apply when you're not acting illegally which Martin did.

By the way, I'm sorry for bringing in 'that' site but:
>fisticuffs
>not lethal
While not as effective as a handgun at close range or as godlike as they are in COD, fists and feet are not non-lethal.


JimB said:
George Zimmerman could have not shot Trayvon Martin. No, that is apparently off the table because he was smaller than Martin, so it's a wash when it comes to actively participating in the conflict itself. If one person was justified attacking, then the other was as well. Let's go back in time further.
When you're being assaulted, you're justified defending yourself. Zimmerman already lost Martin when he was following him, the latter then came back to initiate the conflict.

JimB said:
Trayvon Martin could have stayed home to not go buy Skittles so George Zimmerman would not have seen him to be suspicious of him. That's fucking ridiculous.
Let me fix that for you: Trayvon Martin could not have come back and initiated assault so George Zimmerman would not have to shoot him for having his face smashed into the concrete. That's actually pretty fucking reasonable.

RoonMian said:
Actually, I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground"-law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
Let's also blame the guy who invented guns, gunpowder, and metal. I'm sorry but no, the one responsible for the assault is the one who committed said assault, no one else. We can talk about who or what lead to and slowly escalated towards the conflict; ultimately it's the guy who throws the first punch/kick/bullet.

thenoblitt said:
...Trayvon ran away, and then the officer told Zimmerman not to pursue...
I'm sorry for being such a nit-picker but it was a dispatcher, not an officer. At no point in time did Zimmerman talk to the police prior to the shooting.
Quite a few people still think that he was 'ordered by the police to stop following him' so I'd wager it's quite an important correction to make.

--------------------------------------------------
Shooting for page 36.
 

Aramis Night

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I love facts and statistics and i do happen to be a white male(through no fault of my own, i assure you). This combination of properties i possess clearly puts me in the comic creators definition of the WMDF. I take no pride in this but i also find it difficult to feel too much shame about it which is generally how i feel about race as well despite clearly being pegged as a racist here. I've never understood the concept of racial pride. How can i take credit for accomplishments i have had no hand in?

I do not expect other people to answer for things they have not themselves done or expressed but it seems obvious that as a white male, i cannot be expected to receive the same treatment from others. By virtue of my skin tone/gender i am expected to not protest when i am treated poorly or mischaracterized or else i am shamed by those around me because somewhere someone has been mistreated worse than me and for possibly worse reasons. I do not deny the reality that yes, others have been treated worse than me. A trip to a graveyard will confirm that. And by such an extreme metric, no one has a right to complain as long as they still live.

Have we grown so lacking in empathy that we have to ration it out only to certain groups and not to others? And if so shouldn't the metric be based on suffering or injustice rather than demographic?

The notion of privilege gets thrown around a lot and if it's advocates are to be believed, i am exceedingly well endowed with it. Yet somehow through no irresponsibility of my own, i have been homeless, i have been without employment/income(never been fired), i have been raped/drugged(how i lost my virginity), i have been shot at(drive by), I have had my home destroyed by gang members, my father died last year of a drug overdose, i've been betrayed by numerous supposed best friends and girlfriends, i've been locked up(violated a weapons law while homeless for carrying something i didn't know was illegal to protect myself with), and i have been disowned by all sides of my family because they all think i'm some kind of satanist(spoiler: I'm not).

I don't bring any of that up for the sake of a pity party. My suffering isn't special. But it does exist. To be informed that i have no right to my grief because of aspects of myself i had no choice in, Also denies me my right to empathise with others who have also experienced suffering and grief whether they share my gender/skin tone or not. And this is the objection i have with the subtext that this comic promotes.
 

Karadalis

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And meanwhile the rest of the world that isnt the USA couldnt give less of a f*ck about this.

I mean this whole white vs black thing is really only an issue within the US of A

You dont see anyone rallying against german game devs because they dont put enough jews as their main characters now do you?

And also theres not that many white hetero sentai members over here too, dispite the fact that theres a sh*t ton of ethnical minorities over here.

The USA should really get over its fascination of white vs black... after all doesnt matter who you cut they all bleed the same red. Whoops.. is that the police im hearing? Gotta run guys... gotta run.