White Savior Movies Are Weird
- Thread starter Firefilm
- Start date
I can't speak for the other movies, since I haven't seen them, but I think your view on The Last Samurai is a very shallow one.
The movie depicts a man that is fed up with being the killer, he resents the military he serves for killing innocents and engaging in the morally bankrupt endeavors and he hates himself for partaking in it, the reason he agrees to go train the Japanese soldiers is because "It's all he's good for", but also because he secretly hopes to die there, as Katsumoto deduces during one of their conversations, his disregard for his own safety is what catches their attention and they take him prisoner.
His captors teach him another view on life, and he warrior's way, one of mastery, discipline and introspection, he finds a way to deal with his guilt and be at peace.
He's not even the best samurai among them, he gets his ass repeatedly kicked by senior samurai as the others bet against losses continuously, he wins ONE sparring round and that's it, anyone can win one round.
The movie is not about the white man saving the day, it's about having respect for others, their culture, their livelihoods and traditions, it's about staying true to oneself despite the adversity railed against you, stoicism is a big part of the movie because it's a big part of Japanese culture, and it's not a bad thing.
The movie depicts a man that is fed up with being the killer, he resents the military he serves for killing innocents and engaging in the morally bankrupt endeavors and he hates himself for partaking in it, the reason he agrees to go train the Japanese soldiers is because "It's all he's good for", but also because he secretly hopes to die there, as Katsumoto deduces during one of their conversations, his disregard for his own safety is what catches their attention and they take him prisoner.
His captors teach him another view on life, and he warrior's way, one of mastery, discipline and introspection, he finds a way to deal with his guilt and be at peace.
He's not even the best samurai among them, he gets his ass repeatedly kicked by senior samurai as the others bet against losses continuously, he wins ONE sparring round and that's it, anyone can win one round.
The movie is not about the white man saving the day, it's about having respect for others, their culture, their livelihoods and traditions, it's about staying true to oneself despite the adversity railed against you, stoicism is a big part of the movie because it's a big part of Japanese culture, and it's not a bad thing.
Umm...One thing you overlooked about Avatar?
"and ends up fighting back his own kind better than the indigenous people ever could"
Uhh...YEAH?!
The Navi were nature-tuned. They don't UNDERSTAND technology because they don't have any themselves. Did you see the vehicles at the start of the movie? Full of arrows in the wheels and sticking out of the hull. It's not until the hero sits down and explains to them how tech works that they go "OH! There are humans PILOTING those things? And I can kill them if I just go really up close to the window for maximum impact and shoot the person inside?!"
It makes sense from a plot perspective! They don't USE technology, so they don't understand how it works or how to fight it. Of course they need an outsider who knows what technology is in order to explain it to them!
Besides, he's just paying them back for showing him how to use his blue cat body in the actual jungle. He was freakin' hopeless at first, remember?
"and ends up fighting back his own kind better than the indigenous people ever could"
Uhh...YEAH?!
The Navi were nature-tuned. They don't UNDERSTAND technology because they don't have any themselves. Did you see the vehicles at the start of the movie? Full of arrows in the wheels and sticking out of the hull. It's not until the hero sits down and explains to them how tech works that they go "OH! There are humans PILOTING those things? And I can kill them if I just go really up close to the window for maximum impact and shoot the person inside?!"
It makes sense from a plot perspective! They don't USE technology, so they don't understand how it works or how to fight it. Of course they need an outsider who knows what technology is in order to explain it to them!
Besides, he's just paying them back for showing him how to use his blue cat body in the actual jungle. He was freakin' hopeless at first, remember?
This is a good part of why I'm excited about Disney's new Jungle Book movie. There are so many stories of people getting lost in the wilds and communing with the animals, but the Jungle Book is one of the few stories where the human character is actually a local resident of the area. As opposed to Tarzan or George of the Jungle, which tend to just pretend places with vast jungles aren't already inhabited by societies of humans, if not within them then at least nearby somewhere.
Come to think of it, as much as I love Atlantis: The Lost Empire, it's a bit like Stargate in that a non-white indigenous people are dying out and have lost all knowledge of their history, yet a group of white people (and one token black and one token latina) come to re-teach them their written language, their history, and how to work their ancient technologies. Well, first they come to exploit their resources, THEN a group of them turns rogue to help and save them in the end. I can understand how a long-lived society which has forbidden the use of its technologies would eventually forget how to use said technologies over the course of a thousand years or so. But forgetting their WRITTEN language? That's a bit too integral for a society of their size to function.
Again, I think it's a very underrated Disney film...but goodness does it stink of white savior syndrome.
Come to think of it, as much as I love Atlantis: The Lost Empire, it's a bit like Stargate in that a non-white indigenous people are dying out and have lost all knowledge of their history, yet a group of white people (and one token black and one token latina) come to re-teach them their written language, their history, and how to work their ancient technologies. Well, first they come to exploit their resources, THEN a group of them turns rogue to help and save them in the end. I can understand how a long-lived society which has forbidden the use of its technologies would eventually forget how to use said technologies over the course of a thousand years or so. But forgetting their WRITTEN language? That's a bit too integral for a society of their size to function.
Again, I think it's a very underrated Disney film...but goodness does it stink of white savior syndrome.
[quote/]A white guy is taken in by an indigenous people, teaches them about their own language and history, and then leads them on a revolt for their own freedom in a way that they never would have attempted without him being just so darn awesome.[/quote]
No. He teaches them their history because their ancestors wrote it in hieroglyphs in hidden caves. Hieroglyphs they can't read because their god - the one who orders mass executions at defiance and who they're freaking [i/]terrified[/i] of - outlawed the written word (also the caves have been mostly forgotten about too). As for language, well yeah, he's an expert on it and I've just explained why they don't have it. As for the revolt, they already despised their lot in life. Sha're (the chick) and Skaara (the boy) already were harboring ideas of revolt, and seeing how many recruits they got to stop the executions many others did as well. Also, once Daniel exposes one of the guards as human (or Jaffa) [i/]everyone[/i] joins, showing that only their belief they were serving gods kept them all from rebelling. The Stargate team were just the catalyst that gave these rebels the means and justification to do it with a chance of success.
No. He teaches them their history because their ancestors wrote it in hieroglyphs in hidden caves. Hieroglyphs they can't read because their god - the one who orders mass executions at defiance and who they're freaking [i/]terrified[/i] of - outlawed the written word (also the caves have been mostly forgotten about too). As for language, well yeah, he's an expert on it and I've just explained why they don't have it. As for the revolt, they already despised their lot in life. Sha're (the chick) and Skaara (the boy) already were harboring ideas of revolt, and seeing how many recruits they got to stop the executions many others did as well. Also, once Daniel exposes one of the guards as human (or Jaffa) [i/]everyone[/i] joins, showing that only their belief they were serving gods kept them all from rebelling. The Stargate team were just the catalyst that gave these rebels the means and justification to do it with a chance of success.
I gotta disagree with some of this. The Last Samurai is a white guy that falls in love with a highly romanticized version of feudal Japan so much he emulates them and becomes an evangalist for their way of life after "killin injuns" gets to him back home.
Might as well call it "The First Weeaboo"
Also, the Na'vi are a brutal species to be a part of; The only reason Jake wasn't outright murdered at the beginning was because the one aiming at him thought he was hot, they are painted as enlightened for not developing technology because their god/planet won't allow it, and how many kids die every year to that rite-of-passage of theirs?
Might as well call it "The First Weeaboo"
Also, the Na'vi are a brutal species to be a part of; The only reason Jake wasn't outright murdered at the beginning was because the one aiming at him thought he was hot, they are painted as enlightened for not developing technology because their god/planet won't allow it, and how many kids die every year to that rite-of-passage of theirs?
So who's gonna tell'em all these movies are about bridging cultural divides as peacefully as possible in the face of otherwise pervasive obstinate xenophobia on both sides?
Who's-is, is it me?
Am I supposed to tell'em?
Shoot, I didn't really dress for this *ahem* ahhh....
We'll return after these messages *jazz hands*
Who's-is, is it me?
Am I supposed to tell'em?
Shoot, I didn't really dress for this *ahem* ahhh....
We'll return after these messages *jazz hands*
Funny that this comes out now. A few days ago Australia Day was celebrated. Or, as the native Australians call it, Invasion Day. Fair assessment, all things considered.
That said, I find the idea of "white saviour" to be a little...eh, at least in the examples given. Usually within the confines of the setting, the character's ethnicity has no relevance to the story. This may have some bearing in Last Samurai or Dances with Wolves (neither of which I've seen), but for the other examples:
-Avatar: Well, let's get the "movie people love to hate" out of the way first. But to start off, this is a case where the character's ethnicity has nothing to do with the circumstances presented. But that aside, is it a saviour movie? Um...well...
To be honest, I've never seen Avatar as a "Indians in space" story, but rather an inverse on the idea of alien invasion. It's part of why I've never seen Avatar as being cliched. Because in many stories, it's a case of "aliens invade, humans win, aliens are badguys." Here, while the humans are 'invading,' they're being restrained about it, working for over 20 years before the shit really hits the fan, and trying to find a diplomatic solution. They fail, true, but I find Avatar to be both a cold movie, yet also a sympathetic one in its implications. The na'vi are 'better' than humanity, but it's a status that's rooted in their biology. They're taller (because their world's low gravity allows it), they're stronger (because their biology allows it), and they're more culturally and environentally stable because their psuhelu (sp.?) allows it. Humanity has produced its own wonders and innovations (getting to Pandora in the first place), but while some rise to meet the challenge, others don't, and taking the film to a possible conclusion, humanity is doomed by its failure, both on Earth, and on Pandora. And the universe doesn't care. Same way humans traditionally win against invading aliens, the na'vi win as well, by using their natural strengths with tactics Jake gives them. Because apart from Jake's M60 and Trudy's Samson, the na'vi are fighting with their own arsenal, and win because of numbers in the end. Jakes helps them, sure, but it remains their own triumph, and Eywa's in a sense. Make of that what you will.
-FernGully: Ah, FernGully. Been ages since I've seen it, but I've never seen it as a "saviour" movie either. Because, looking back...what does Zach actually do? As in, if we see the story as ultimately a conflict between the forest and Hexus, what does Zach do to affect that outcome? From what I remember he's the one that shuts down the machine powering Hexus, but it's ultimately Krysta that saves the day that imprisons him. FernGully is far more a green film than a saviour film, in that most of it is Zach and Krysta bonding, and Zach learning about the beauty of the natural world. Humans ultimately release Hexus, but they're never presented as an antagonistic force, but rather the catalyst for the story. I actually see FernGully as being more akin to Furlings (anyone remember that) - yeah, it's a human that causes the gas seepage, but it's the catalyst for the story, not an adversary within it.
-Stargate: Of the three examples I've listed here, this comes closest to saviour territory. Speaking personally, Stargate is a weird one for me. On one hand, I can admit that most of the love for Stargate comes from SG-1 (and spinoffs), and that while the movie sparked the franchise, it's generally regarded as being "meh" taken on its own terms. I kinda agree, but while I like SG-1, there always felt like there was a disconnect between the TV series and its source material. But that's a discussion for another time. But going by the film itself, there's the saviour element - white men from the USA help primitive peoples that happen to correspond to an Egyptian (Middle-east) culture, arm them with technology, and help them overthrow their cruel master. And the main protagonists are all white. So, maybe.
On the other hand, I don't personally see it as being analogous to any 'white saviour' concept. Within the movie's lore, it's Ra that jumpstarts human civilization, and if we factor the tv series into it, we can infer that most, if not all of humanity's major civilizations were given the basis for their architecture and culture by the goa'uld. Ra is both creator and destroyer, so to speak. That remains true on Earth, and becomes true on Abydos. Ra gave Man technology, Man used that technology to overthrow him, Ra seeks to destroy humanity through its own technology (the naquedah-enhanced nuke), but is destroyed by his own creation (beaming the bomb up to his ship). I've heard it said that Stargate is actually thematically based around the concept of science/rationality vs. religion/dogma, and that ultimately tech wins out over Ra on Abydos. If the movie has a theme, I'm more inclined to side with that interpretation, but I can get how one would categorize it as a "white saviour" film.
That said, I find the idea of "white saviour" to be a little...eh, at least in the examples given. Usually within the confines of the setting, the character's ethnicity has no relevance to the story. This may have some bearing in Last Samurai or Dances with Wolves (neither of which I've seen), but for the other examples:
-Avatar: Well, let's get the "movie people love to hate" out of the way first. But to start off, this is a case where the character's ethnicity has nothing to do with the circumstances presented. But that aside, is it a saviour movie? Um...well...
To be honest, I've never seen Avatar as a "Indians in space" story, but rather an inverse on the idea of alien invasion. It's part of why I've never seen Avatar as being cliched. Because in many stories, it's a case of "aliens invade, humans win, aliens are badguys." Here, while the humans are 'invading,' they're being restrained about it, working for over 20 years before the shit really hits the fan, and trying to find a diplomatic solution. They fail, true, but I find Avatar to be both a cold movie, yet also a sympathetic one in its implications. The na'vi are 'better' than humanity, but it's a status that's rooted in their biology. They're taller (because their world's low gravity allows it), they're stronger (because their biology allows it), and they're more culturally and environentally stable because their psuhelu (sp.?) allows it. Humanity has produced its own wonders and innovations (getting to Pandora in the first place), but while some rise to meet the challenge, others don't, and taking the film to a possible conclusion, humanity is doomed by its failure, both on Earth, and on Pandora. And the universe doesn't care. Same way humans traditionally win against invading aliens, the na'vi win as well, by using their natural strengths with tactics Jake gives them. Because apart from Jake's M60 and Trudy's Samson, the na'vi are fighting with their own arsenal, and win because of numbers in the end. Jakes helps them, sure, but it remains their own triumph, and Eywa's in a sense. Make of that what you will.
-FernGully: Ah, FernGully. Been ages since I've seen it, but I've never seen it as a "saviour" movie either. Because, looking back...what does Zach actually do? As in, if we see the story as ultimately a conflict between the forest and Hexus, what does Zach do to affect that outcome? From what I remember he's the one that shuts down the machine powering Hexus, but it's ultimately Krysta that saves the day that imprisons him. FernGully is far more a green film than a saviour film, in that most of it is Zach and Krysta bonding, and Zach learning about the beauty of the natural world. Humans ultimately release Hexus, but they're never presented as an antagonistic force, but rather the catalyst for the story. I actually see FernGully as being more akin to Furlings (anyone remember that) - yeah, it's a human that causes the gas seepage, but it's the catalyst for the story, not an adversary within it.
-Stargate: Of the three examples I've listed here, this comes closest to saviour territory. Speaking personally, Stargate is a weird one for me. On one hand, I can admit that most of the love for Stargate comes from SG-1 (and spinoffs), and that while the movie sparked the franchise, it's generally regarded as being "meh" taken on its own terms. I kinda agree, but while I like SG-1, there always felt like there was a disconnect between the TV series and its source material. But that's a discussion for another time. But going by the film itself, there's the saviour element - white men from the USA help primitive peoples that happen to correspond to an Egyptian (Middle-east) culture, arm them with technology, and help them overthrow their cruel master. And the main protagonists are all white. So, maybe.
On the other hand, I don't personally see it as being analogous to any 'white saviour' concept. Within the movie's lore, it's Ra that jumpstarts human civilization, and if we factor the tv series into it, we can infer that most, if not all of humanity's major civilizations were given the basis for their architecture and culture by the goa'uld. Ra is both creator and destroyer, so to speak. That remains true on Earth, and becomes true on Abydos. Ra gave Man technology, Man used that technology to overthrow him, Ra seeks to destroy humanity through its own technology (the naquedah-enhanced nuke), but is destroyed by his own creation (beaming the bomb up to his ship). I've heard it said that Stargate is actually thematically based around the concept of science/rationality vs. religion/dogma, and that ultimately tech wins out over Ra on Abydos. If the movie has a theme, I'm more inclined to side with that interpretation, but I can get how one would categorize it as a "white saviour" film.
It's odd that Disney's Pocahontas didn't make this list, what with it also being the exact same movie. The main thing that separates it from other entries in the genre is that the white non-protagonists are simply stupid and gullible instead of evil (except for Ratcliffe, who is just evil). But "Savages" is a better song than "Toxic Love" if you ask me.
As a Hapa Japanese woman who went to see this movie in theaters with her Japanese side of the family when she was little, that movie was one of the most insulting movies I've ever seen in my life.Combustion Kevin said:
You can spin it all you like. But you literally just described every single white savior story line ever. He's literally "the chosen one" because he waved a flag with a white tiger on it. And that was some destiny BS. I don't know why hollywood thinks that all non white people believe in random magic.
The only way to fix White Savior movies is to make every single character an asshole so you don't feel bad when any of them get killed. The Satsuma Rebellion and the Boshin War were further colonial meddling that just ended with thousands dying and rapid modernization being brought to Japan in the worst way possible.
Well we can just not have white savior movies at all. Since they usually are a way to cover a historical event or time period in a non white culture, but with the added "bonus" of a young white man that people can "relate" to. The guy that people can explain super neato traditions to.CaitSeith said:
Imagine if "To Live" was created by an american movie studio. What an odd representation of the Chinese revolution that would be.
So I guess ever encountering a different culture that resonates with you deeper than your home culture makes you an affront to the culture you find yourself more deeply connected with and therefore is bad and also terrible writing?
Someone needs to inform emigration than they're enabling something terrible. All this cultural appropriation needs to be stopped.
Also kinda cool how you can be "too white"(though obviously this would apply to all outsiders) to be considered able to ever integrate into a different society. So that's cool too.
Someone needs to inform emigration than they're enabling something terrible. All this cultural appropriation needs to be stopped.
Also kinda cool how you can be "too white"(though obviously this would apply to all outsiders) to be considered able to ever integrate into a different society. So that's cool too.
Stargates a bit of an odd one to take. Its not like the natives forgot their own history/language through ineptitude, its that a more powerful colonial force (in a bit of an unusual take, non-white, though being ALIENS may vary on whether you want to take that as a metaphor) was literally murdering the crap out of them and suppressing it. The white dudes also don't actually "go native", unless my memory of the movie is terrible. They align with them out of a mutual goal of taking down Ra, but prettymuch stick to their own methods and culture in the process.
Haha, yeah, it's kinda funny.super_mega_ultra said:
Though that's definitely not going to be a western-only thing. I'm willing to bet it's just an innate human behavior of seeing groups outside their own as different and exotic, even if in practice it's pretty much the same.
Sorta reminded about how during one of Gabriel Iglasias' standup routines, he made a joke in the 'redneck voice' and commented that he loves that voice, but make no mistake, Latinos have rednecks too. But no one THINKS their culture/region has rednecks other than the US.
But yeah, most of these movies I can think of and remember anything from usually involve the outsider shunning where they came from and what they had and integrating completely with the new society/culture. One would think it'd be a hailing of cultural bridging and putting yourself in a place you feel at home, but somehow it's actually some sort of racist thing about how 'white people are better'?
I've got to object to the "White Savior" movie term. The same way I'm sure people would object to calling something like Major Payne a "Black Savior" movie. That people would focus on the race as the qualifier is a problem. They're intended largely to just be average person savior movies. If the average person was black or Hispanic or anything else then you'd see a lot more of [insert alternate race here] savior movies. The general point being that the main character is serving more as an audience avatar than a special character all their own even though they are provided with a back story and motivations.
You could also call the ones you presented "American Savior" movies or "Outsider Savior" movies if you wanted to be most appropriate. Sometimes the person being white is just a product of 75% of America being white. Not that the person is thinking that the "white" person has something to offer that a black or Asian American wouldn't.
And, FYI, many of the movies listed actually show the culture they're entering into changing them into a better person that can then be heroic. Like fern gully, the "white guy" was part of the mechanism destroying the forest and the fairy taught him to care. then he fights against his own people. Same with nearly everything else you listed.
But maybe that's why these films are particularly good ones. It's not some white teacher going into an urban school and their nature of being white suddenly means they can do the job. It's people who integrate into the culture and save it out of love rather than magic white powers.
You could also call the ones you presented "American Savior" movies or "Outsider Savior" movies if you wanted to be most appropriate. Sometimes the person being white is just a product of 75% of America being white. Not that the person is thinking that the "white" person has something to offer that a black or Asian American wouldn't.
And, FYI, many of the movies listed actually show the culture they're entering into changing them into a better person that can then be heroic. Like fern gully, the "white guy" was part of the mechanism destroying the forest and the fairy taught him to care. then he fights against his own people. Same with nearly everything else you listed.
But maybe that's why these films are particularly good ones. It's not some white teacher going into an urban school and their nature of being white suddenly means they can do the job. It's people who integrate into the culture and save it out of love rather than magic white powers.