Who Is Lorelei? A Brief History of (Marvel's) Asgard

[RossaLincoln]

Who Is Lorelei? A Brief History of (Marvel's) Asgard

More than just the vengeful stalker from The Mighty Thor, Lorelei's origins are in a legitimately tragic real-life folk tale. Also, we discuss the time Loki had sex with a horse.

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[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Observe Whedon's works; Buffy, Dollhouse and Firefly. All feature a central mysterious, but special, female character.

Asking him to write something new would be like asking the sun to rise in the north.

 

[PuckFuppet]

I don't think the problem is Joss, whatever problems the show may have as a result of his influence (and the production quirks/biases of others) the killer here is the network. The popularity of the networks earlier shows, LOST included, could be less attributed to anything being done by the network to promote them and more attributed to flash-in-the-pan brilliance from the production crew and the cast. Once ABC decided LOST was worth enough money for them to get more involved in the production the show... well we know what happened.

Hell if I remember correctly Disney was desperate to get rid of ABC outright a few years back, but that fell apart because of an insider trading scandal. While I understand, from a business perspective, why Agents of Shield is on ABC it just doesn't make sense from production standpoint. They don't have a lot of access to the people with the expertise and passion necessary to make something like AoS work, and genuinely can't get those kinds of people hired. This is a network whose bread and butter for the past decade has been Grey's Anatomy or Desperate Housewives, whose last attempt at a sci-fi/action flick ended in a disastrous mess of misplaced teenage angst and thinks that a European import of a French supernatural drama that was received sub-par critically in its own country was the best choice for them to join the growing trend of American remakes of European shows.

ABC is a mess. I look forward to seeing what Netflix does.

EDIT: Production crews for TV work differently to production crews for films. You don't just start a new project and "get the best", chances are your new projects will need to have a lot of your existing crew because of contract obligations etc.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

but for the first time since the Deathlok reveal, the show is once again getting a distinct Marvel super-character with potential beyond one-off appearances.

I'm a critic of the show too, but this is just silly. Since? The Deathlok reveal was LAST episode. If people are complaining about how the show only reveals one new villain or hero each episode then the show is not salvageable, simply because the fans have unreachable goals and standards. The show creates/introduces plenty of big villains (roughly every other episode), tie-ins, and neat situations - the problem is simply that so far they haven't gone anywhere. They just lock up all the villains in a SHIELD prison and do that dumb wink at the camera.

I'd say the biggest fear of mine is that they're purposely not using them in the show so that they can save them for a movie. If that happens, all the show watchers will be let down and all the movie watchers will just be confused. If you tease something in a show, you need to use it in the show, and NOT 2 SEASONS LATER. It really feels like the show is building up to a BIG end-of-season showdown/prison beak, but in not utilizing any of the big bads they've created until then they're sucking up what bit of good faith the fans have left.

 

[RossaLincoln]

but for the first time since the Deathlok reveal, the show is once again getting a distinct Marvel super-character with potential beyond one-off appearances.

I'm a critic of the show too, but this is just silly. Since? The Deathlok reveal was LAST episode. If people are complaining about how the show only reveals one new villain or hero each episode then the show is not salvageable, simply because the fans have unreachable goals and standards. The show creates/introduces plenty of big villains (roughly every other episode), tie-ins, and neat situations - the problem is simply that so far they haven't gone anywhere. They just lock up all the villains in a SHIELD prison and do that dumb wink at the camera.

I'd say the biggest fear of mine is that they're purposely not using them in the show so that they can save them for a movie. If that happens, all the show watchers will be let down and all the movie watchers will just be confused. If you tease something in a show, you need to use it in the show, and NOT 2 SEASONS LATER. It really feels like the show is building up to a BIG end-of-season showdown/prison beak, but in not utilizing any of the big bads they've created until then they're sucking up what bit of good faith the fans have left.

Fair point, awkward phrasing on my part but I was attempting to convey how annoyed I was because after the Deathlok reveal, we got a full hour of OMG SKYE IS THE BEST. I perhaps could have explained the joke better, which is that this single hour felt like 3 episodes.

As for your fears, I agree. I was deeply annoyed when not only did Mike turn out not to be Luke Cage, but it was then announced that Luke Cage, and Daredevil, and Iron Fist, would be used for Netflix and (presumably) not able to ever appear on Agents of SHIELD. But mainly, this show thinks Skye is far more interesting than she is, and I honestly don't get it.

 

[RossaLincoln]

Observe Whedon's works; Buffy, Dollhouse and Firefly. All feature a central mysterious, but special, female character.

Asking him to write something new would be like asking the sun to rise in the north.

No disagreement with you there. My issue is that this show is doing it very, very badly, not that this show is doing it at all. Skye is a terrible, obvious Mary Sue. And frankly, previous Whedon joints have actually demonstrated the specialness of such characters. All this show does is tell us she's special without any demonstration.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

As for your fears, I agree. I was deeply annoyed when not only did Mike turn out not to be Luke Cage, but it was then announced that Luke Cage, and Daredevil, and Iron Fist, would be used for Netflix and (presumably) not able to ever appear on Agents of SHIELD. But mainly, this show thinks Skye is far more interesting than she is, and I honestly don't get it.

While I don't hate Skye, she definitely gets too much attention. Hopefully this mini-arc will end with a big reveal of what/who she actually is so they can get back to the older team members - not only does the older cast have better acting chops, but a much better on screen chemistry.

I haven't read the comics (got introduced to Marvel exclusively through movies, starting with XMen) so all the big name drops people throw around when talking about the show get me furious. Not at the name droppers, but because all I know is from the Marvel wiki pages that I sneak off to. From what I hear, here and elsewhere, it's an [unsuccessful] attempt to placate the existing fans but for me its like audiovisual cock block. There's only so much teasing someone can take before they simply stop watching. At least LOST up front promised us answers, even though we knew some wouldn't be for several seasons. SHIELD just feels like failed attempts to be trendy. They really could go somewhere with this, they just aren't.

 

[RossaLincoln]

As for your fears, I agree. I was deeply annoyed when not only did Mike turn out not to be Luke Cage, but it was then announced that Luke Cage, and Daredevil, and Iron Fist, would be used for Netflix and (presumably) not able to ever appear on Agents of SHIELD. But mainly, this show thinks Skye is far more interesting than she is, and I honestly don't get it.

While I don't hate Skye, she definitely gets too much attention. Hopefully this mini-arc will end with a big reveal of what/who she actually is so they can get back to the older team members - not only does the older cast have better acting chops, but a much better on screen chemistry.

I haven't read the comics (got introduced to Marvel exclusively through movies, starting with XMen) so all the big name drops people throw around when talking about the show get me furious. Not at the name droppers, but because all I know is from the Marvel wiki pages that I sneak off to. From what I hear, here and elsewhere, it's an [unsuccessful] attempt to placate the existing fans but for me its like audiovisual cock block. There's only so much teasing someone can take before they simply stop watching. At least LOST up front promised us answers, even though we knew some wouldn't be for several seasons. SHIELD just feels like failed attempts to be trendy. They really could go somewhere with this, they just aren't.

ENDORSE. Especially "There's only so much teasing someone can take before they simply stop watching." This show thinks that fanservice is the same thing as building a myth arc. It's not. Name-dropping people from the Marvel universe is fun, but ultimately this show needs to be good.

 

[PuckFuppet]

Observe Whedon's works; Buffy, Dollhouse and Firefly. All feature a central mysterious, but special, female character.

Asking him to write something new would be like asking the sun to rise in the north.

No disagreement with you there. My issue is that this show is doing it very, very badly, not that this show is doing it at all. Skye is a terrible, obvious Mary Sue. And frankly, previous Whedon joints have actually demonstrated the specialness of such characters. All this show does is tell us she's special without any demonstration.

I mentioned somewhere on these forums before that as a whole they seem to be playing it as safe as they can in terms of characterisation, of everyone, and plot. Classic trope conforming villains, both the weekly and arc based ones, being fought by a group of personalities that feel like they've been lifted right from an 80's "action thriller".

The episode at the academy was a cringe inducing projectile spew of every "school, but cooler and more AWESOME" cliche I could think of. (they have a secret "bar", they get access to enough tech to make a superweapon, apparently they have a rivalry with another school etc.)

That isn't necessarily a bad thing but its execution in this case was flawed at best. I don't think Skye is the issue, nor do I outright think she qualifies as a Mary Sue (which is a term that has taken on so many different meanings and definitions that its almost meaningless anyway). The problem continues to be how they tell the story, as a whole. Whether they're focusing on Skye or not they seem to be hamfisted in their approach to telling a story and then portraying that story in an interesting light.

EDIT: Captcha was "dog's dinner", which is what ABC is making of AoS.

Excessive focus on the "hot character" regardless of whether they have anything to do with the plot is actually an ABC staple, see "V" for reference or just the concept of things like "Desperate Housewives" or "Revenge" or "Gray's Anatomy"... you get the picture.

 

[warrenEBB]

Great Read, thanks for writing.

I'm fascinated by the way so many people manage to have different problems with the show.

- I was initially hoping the show would try to ground the SHIELD organization (and epic movies) in reality, with commentary on modern government (NSA, guantanamo, cleaning up after wars, etc.). Episodes about getting papers signed, or dodging senate ovesight. So I felt kinda let down that it was trying to be a light globe trotting spy adventure.
- but then by FZZT I started to care about this little family on a ship.
- And then the last episode (TAHITIT) happened, and I was left more down by the show than I'd ever been. Because it was content to gloss over how the tech worked, how the non-SHIELD lair was connected, and the reality of the remote mountain set. there was no style or depth.

...
The show feels like a light aftermint, to remind you that more movie meals are coming. Which isn't very filling. But it is a unique TV experience.
hmmf.

p.s. all bitching aside, I asked if Agent Grant Ward was related to the Punisher (over on comicbookresources), and the show runners said they loved the idea and couldn't comment. THIS SEEMS HIGHLY THRILLING TO ME.
Once this is revealed in the show, i expect a lot of fans will go back and see all the clues, and start enjoying the show more. (and i expect similar tie ins will come for all the other characters - which give new weight to their actions so far, and make everyone want to rewatch everything).

 

[octafish]

To be fair of course Thor and Loki cross dressed. How else could Thor get his stolen hammer back from the Frost Giants except to dress as a woman and pretend to marry their King?

 

[KissingSunlight]

People complaining about Agents of Shield is making me hate comic book fans again. The essential complaint about the TV show is that it's not THEIR INDIVIDUAL version of what they want it to be. Also, there is also a ridiculous expectation that every episode should be as big as the Marvel movies. With summer blockbuster quality special effects & explosions and an A-list cast.

I'm looking forward to the next episode. However, I will admit I was disappointed when I found out that Lorelei wasn't going to be her. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0334179/?ref_=nv_sr_1

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

No disagreement with you there. My issue is that this show is doing it very, very badly, not that this show is doing it at all. Skye is a terrible, obvious Mary Sue. And frankly, previous Whedon joints have actually demonstrated the specialness of such characters. All this show does is tell us she's special without any demonstration.

The show itself is very Whedonesque in nature; Small contained one off stories with no overall arc, except what can be slung in in the last few episodes. Something which is considered an abnormality in today's t.v culture. You can tell that he is trying to use his standard method of producing in this series, but you know what else you can feel about this series? The ever present hand of Executive Meddling, as per the rather weak interconnecting story (which Whedon cannot do) trying to hold the series together. The "Executives" trying to make sure this show can be tied in to the current movie franchise.

I think I am coming at this point about 3 different angles all at once.

If he had been allowed creative control, it might not be the train wreck it is right now. Then again without the meddling, it might be 20 eps of "OMG we love Skye!"

Maybe they should have gotten someone else.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I was surprised MovieBob didn't write this, and disgusted with the tone. If you hate the show so much, don't write about it, bitching to the rest of us.

 

[nyysjan]

To be fair of course Thor and Loki cross dressed. How else could Thor get his stolen hammer back from the Frost Giants except to dress as a woman and pretend to marry their King?

I am certain Loki could have come up with a less embarrassing and/or easier way of getting back the hammer.
But this is Loki we are talking about, God or Chaos, Trickery and Lies, of course he went for the cross dressing option, it's more interesting that way and makes a better story.

 

[Hiramas]

Ok, i perfectly understand the critics of this show, i find it lacking myself.
But I watch it, because it's marvel and i have watched nearly everything with a "whedon" sign on it.
Now, i can only beg the gods that Disney keeps pumping money into Agents and gives it a second season where they can start over. New story, maybe some new characters...
There are SO DAMN MANY examples of first season fails. Some are Whedonesque like Buffy, but others are from totally different genres. Take JAG which made a 180 after the first season. Star Trek TNG's first season is a classic but in awful in parts.

It is so damn annoying that there is no chance for a show that is not a blockbuster right away and that in an age where there are sooo many things to watch and a lot of people don't get to take part in the first run.
If the second season fails, cancel it. Do something new. Make Netflix the new nerd-mekka.
But please give it a chance, there is precedence.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I complain about Agents of Shield, not because of any fanatism for the source material, but because it's just so freaking dumb. The minute I saw they had some teen chick as the protagonist I gave it a pass. And I don't know why everybody fawns over Coulson. The guy playing him can't act for shit.

 

[NortherWolf]

I was surprised MovieBob didn't write this, and disgusted with the tone. If you hate the show so much, don't write about it, bitching to the rest of us.

Why not? Are you saying only praise should be allowed? Welcome to the real world, where your view of how things are will never work. I like hearing differing views, it makes choices easier.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I was surprised MovieBob didn't write this, and disgusted with the tone. If you hate the show so much, don't write about it, bitching to the rest of us.

Why not? Are you saying only praise should be allowed? Welcome to the real world, where your view of how things are will never work. I like hearing differing views, it makes choices easier.

I'm saying that in an article explaining the backstory of an obscure character to be featured in an episode of S.H.I.E.L.D., the dripping bile and hate was unnecessary. It wasn't even funny. I just got the subtext of "I don't want to write about this show."
But I do agree about choices, and I choose to not read anything else by this writer again, particularly if it's about S.H.I.E.L.D.

 

[DaWaffledude]

I was surprised MovieBob didn't write this, and disgusted with the tone. If you hate the show so much, don't write about it, bitching to the rest of us.

Why not? Are you saying only praise should be allowed? Welcome to the real world, where your view of how things are will never work. I like hearing differing views, it makes choices easier.

I feel this is appropriate


Besides which, this thread is just begging to turn into an flame-war over AoS as opposed to, y'know, people talking about Lorelei.