Whore of the Orient Title Deemed Racist by City Councilor

[TheBelgianGuy]

Errr. Aren't historians allowed to call a certain period European history when the main Mediterranean culture started getting influenced by Eastern cultures, "the oriental period" as well?

This is confusing. I already found "African-American" hard to understand.

 

[RaNDM G]

This is incredibly petty. If people are willing to take offense at this, we may as well ban every title that doesn't take place in the west.

The complaint may be exaggerated, but the title is still in very poor taste. Hopefully they can make up for it by honestly exploring and explaining Shanghai's plight, rather than exploiting the "exotic" setting to make another tale of man and his gun*.

The whole point of the game is in the name. Shanghai in the 1930s was a ruthless town, controlled by gangsters and Communist rebels. Nationalists were more than happy to gun down dissenters, and there was constant fear of being attacked by the Japanese. Whore of the Orient is not descriptive of the people but of the city itself.

We wouldn't even have this discussion if this were a novel or film.

[small]*I'm not saing LA Noire was a game like that - I haven't played it.[/small]

You should. One of the best titles this gen I think.

 

[crepesack]

Hi white people discussing asian race relations.

Asian man here telling you guys what I as an asian individual think.

I think the title could have been better done. "Whore of the Orient" directly draws upon orientalism and western fetishization of anything exotic. This is especially the case with asian culture which has been the target of western people as "mysterious" and innately erotic. The system of thought marginalized asian cultures (especially women) as an oddity or curio.

Now I don't think the title has to be changed. I just believe that the mistake should be pointed out. Perhaps if they added a subtitle to clarify what the game actually is. Because at it stands it only serves to evoke images of asian eroticism that to be honest is degrading.


Many of my female asian friends also find it creepy that white men fetishize asian women so much and this is just another case of playing on that sort of psychology. This all despite whatever the title was trying to convey.

The word orient has nothing to do with it. It's the combination with whore and generalization that makes it a little bit rude. "Whore of Shanghai" could have been a good working title in itself. But whatever.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Hi white people discussing asian race relations.

Asian man here telling you guys what I as an asian individual think.

I think the title could have been better done. "Whore of the Orient" directly draws upon orientalism and western fetishization of anything exotic. This is especially the case with asian culture which has been the target of western people as "mysterious" and innately erotic. The system of thought marginalized asian cultures (especially women) as an oddity or curio.

Now I don't think the title has to be changed. I just believe that the mistake should be pointed out. Perhaps if they added a subtitle to clarify what the game actually is. Because at it stands it only serves to evoke images of asian eroticism that to be honest is degrading.


Many of my female asian friends also find it creepy that white men fetishize asian women so much and this is just another case of playing on that sort of psychology. This all despite whatever the title was trying to convey.

The word orient has nothing to do with it. It's the combination with whore and generalization that makes it a little bit rude. "Whore of Shanghai" could have been a good working title in itself. But whatever.

If you'd read the comments of the thread you would have understood that The Whore of the Orient is a historical name of Shanghai and have absolutely nothing to do with whores or sexual fetishism of Asian women.

Rest of your points are valid enough.

 

[Some_weirdGuy]

What the fuck? I find their comparison of 'Orient' to a racial slur to be incredibly offensive, basically they're accusing people of being racist bigots... what an asshole.

I'm Australian and I've never heard of 'Orient' being racist... ((then again, until now I've also not heard of it being something you apparently use in reference to asian people. I always took it to be a geographical descriptor, and in common speech as basically a descriptor of 'classic' asian things, such as architecture or recipes or stuff))
Infact, I'm also offended that we have people like this making Australian's look like bloody idiots. Why is it ok for things like 'oriental gardens' and 'oriental noodle flavouring'(which i walked passed in the shops again just today) but you include it in a game name and suddenly it's racist?

Then again, it seems everything is racist these days. I was informed when listing 'eng, aus, jap, usa' that jap is racist and offensive for instance(sounds more like people getting offended on behalf of others... others who aren't foolish enough to be offended by something so utterly ridiculous and non-offensive).

Any designation can be used to convey prejudice, the word itself is not racist, and especially not when it's a proper geological descriptor like 'orient'. Just give it a little longer and 'Australians' will become a 'racist word' too, as the entire collective internet will come to only ever utter it in ridicule and contempt, as they mention yet another piece of utter stupidity coming from the land down under. >.<

 

[drschplatt]

The woman needs to educate herself a little more. Orient is not insulting or offensive. It's simply a modernization of Dioecesis Orientis. This is the name of the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire. Over the years it eventually became a blanket term for the East as used by western cultures. To even pretend that it has the same connotation as the word "******" is ridiculous. *****, gook, Charlie, Chinaman, lemon, Bodie, nip, nipper, yolkie, etc. But Orient? Grow up.

I've never heard of anyone getting their panties in a wad over the use of the term.

~signed, some random person living in Taiwan

Perhaps you ought to educate yourself a little. The N word is itself is an anglicisation(sic)of the latin(sic) word for black via Spanish and Portuguese. I wouldn't suggest calling a black person that and then trying to say its OK because its latin(sic). The origin of the word is somewhat unimportant to the current pejorative, or otherwise, use of the word.

And the word, which indeed comes from the Latin "niger" was very much originally used to describe a physical trait and from the beginning, was meant to be discriminatory in it's very nature. Orientis is the name of the guy who ruled over the Dioecesis. It's a locational noun only and does not describe a people group. It was never intended to be discriminatory and is not to this day. I'm not Asian and I live in what's considered the Orient. My wife is Asian and she's in the Orient. So, why on earth would it be derogatory towards Asians when both Asians and non-Asians are part of the same reference group?

That's why some people consider "African-america" less offensive than "darkie" because one is a locational noun dependent on origins and placement and the other is drawing attention to a physical trait as the differing point. That's a major difference and why my point is valid. Trying to compare words that were used originally to be a disparaging declaration of the differences in physical traits, with those that were used in the same way the word America is taken from the name Amerigo Vespucci, just doesn't hold water.

When you are in hole stop digging. The etymology of the word is not the problem, the issues is whether the word is pejorative or not. Both words have latin origins and in the Roman republic and in the early empire oriental was most definitely a pejorative term. Personally, I don't think the word oriental is used pejoratively today but has been used so in the last 100 years or so. The fact of its latin origins are of no relevance to that debate.

Let me know when you want to start reading my entire post and then we can talk more about my main point that equating "orient" with "******" is historically, linguistically, culturally, and socially ignorant and wrong. I've made more than enough references outside of the linguistic historical relevance.

A word does not become wrong and offensive simply because an extreme minority decide it is. A word becomes offensive and wrong when the intent and use are wrong or offensive. If historically, linguistically, socially and culturally there is no intent or design towards offensiveness or disparaging, people need to just grow up and move on and stop playing the victim when there's no aggressor.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I had no idea that the words "Orient" or "Oriental" were considered offensive or racist. I guess they would be kinda archaic, but I had no idea they were racist. I have to ask though, does this game take place during 19th century colonial expansion? 'Cause if it does then the title is kinda appropriate given the context, wouldn't you say?

 

[Albino Boo]

When you are in hole stop digging. The etymology of the word is not the problem, the issues is whether the word is pejorative or not. Both words have latin origins and in the Roman republic and in the early empire oriental was most definitely a pejorative term. Personally, I don't think the word oriental is used pejoratively today but has been used so in the last 100 years or so. The fact of its latin origins are of no relevance to that debate.

Let me know when you want to start reading my entire post and then we can talk more about my main point that equating "orient" with "******" is historically, linguistically, culturally, and socially ignorant and wrong. I've made more than enough references outside of the linguistic historical relevance.

A word does not become wrong and offensive simply because an extreme minority decide it is. A word becomes offensive and wrong when the intent and use are wrong or offensive. If historically, linguistically, socially and culturally there is no intent or design towards offensiveness or disparaging, people need to just grow up and move on and stop playing the victim when there's no aggressor.[/quote]


This your first post

The woman needs to educate herself a little more. Orient is not insulting or offensive. It's simply a modernization of Dioecesis Orientis. This is the name of the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire. Over the years it eventually became a blanket term for the East as used by western cultures. To even pretend that it has the same connotation as the word "******" is ridiculous. *****, gook, Charlie, Chinaman, lemon, Bodie, nip, nipper, yolkie, etc. But Orient? Grow up.

I've never heard of anyone getting their panties in a wad over the use of the term.

~signed, some random person living in Taiwan

You stated that oriental was fine because it was latin. I pointed that the N word has same the origin and you have failing around in attempt to justify your mistake ever since. The etymology of the word does not matter to whether the word is offensive today.

 

[Erttheking]

Ok, I just want to say something. This is censorship. THIS is censorship. Criticizing a game for doing something you don't like isn't censorship. THIS is censorship. Just want to make that clear.

OT: Seriously, how is this a thing? I can't help but wonder how many gamers in Australia just want the government to shut up and just let them do their thing.

 

[Nickolai77]

Hi white people discussing asian race relations.

Asian man here telling you guys what I as an asian individual think.

I think the title could have been better done. "Whore of the Orient" directly draws upon orientalism and western fetishization of anything exotic. This is especially the case with asian culture which has been the target of western people as "mysterious" and innately erotic. The system of thought marginalized asian cultures (especially women) as an oddity or curio.

Now I don't think the title has to be changed. I just believe that the mistake should be pointed out. Perhaps if they added a subtitle to clarify what the game actually is. Because at it stands it only serves to evoke images of asian eroticism that to be honest is degrading.


Many of my female asian friends also find it creepy that white men fetishize asian women so much and this is just another case of playing on that sort of psychology. This all despite whatever the title was trying to convey.

The word orient has nothing to do with it. It's the combination with whore and generalization that makes it a little bit rude. "Whore of Shanghai" could have been a good working title in itself. But whatever.

I agree with what you're saying here and i think this is probably one of the most insightful posts on this thread.

What i would add though is that i strongly suspect the game's title is to deliberately invoke that sense of colonial fetishism towards Asian cultures and i fully expect it to bash the hell out of that mentality. Team Bondhi have shown themselves to be an intelligent and thoughtful team of developers, I expect this game's going to express a post-colonial critique. This i'd argue is a good thing because there arn't many games tackle the issue of colonialism (Probably because it was more of a European rather than American thing) so it's something that should be explored, especially given the huge impact colonialism has had on the world today.


As an aside, I'd also wonder if certain sections of the video gaming community today (Looking at Otaku's here) have views about Asia (or Japan specifically) that exoticise the country in a way reminiscent of colonial attitudes. I'd love it if the game were to parody the Western otaku mentality.

That said, the Japanese are the one's representing their own culture to the world, and a hallmark of colonialism is where Western people themselves represent the oriental other- so i'm quite unsure about the suggestion i'm making here.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

'Cause if it does then the title is kinda appropriate given the context, wouldn't you say?

Social justice warriors always seem to ignore this bit. Same logic of the people who tried to ban Huckleberry Finn.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

'Cause if it does then the title is kinda appropriate given the context, wouldn't you say?

Social justice warriors always seem to ignore this bit. Same logic of the people who tried to ban Huckleberry Finn.

Yes I know and it's absurd. These things are a real part of our history and we can't go burying out heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist.