Why a classical zombie outbreak would be rather underwhelming

[UpInSmoke]

Biggest problem with any zombie story- food. I mean, that's why the zombies are running around eating people, right? 'cause they ran out of stuff in the fridge and can't open cans. So, what happens when there aren't any more people in the area to eat? 100% magic-invulnerable zombies could I suppose just maintain themselves indefinitely but then they're about the same as a terminator, whole different genera. Once the food runs out, probably a few hours, the zombies would start eating eachother or starve. And then starve shortly thereafter. And although you could last for about a month with no food, it's much less with no water, which zombies would be equally braindead about. So I figure any uncontrolled outbreak would fix itself in about half a week, one way or another.

I think you miss the point entirely. Zombies aren't hungry like a living being is hungry. They're driven by a supernatural or viral drive to devour other non-zombified humans. Not burritos. Not each other. They couldn't care less about that shit. They want untainted flesh, and in some cases untainted brains. Nothing else will satisfy the craving, and they will imperil themselves to the point of complete dismemberment in order to peruse their prey. They aren't terminators, but at the same time they don't have the same need for fluids and nutrition that a living person has. They can walk around (or drag themselves around) for as long as their brains have nerve endings that go somewhere.

 

[Fineldar]

I disagree. It's not easy at all for the government to reach a consensus. The "send in the national guard to start mowing down crowds of people in the streets of Los Angeles" bill is not going to sail smoothly through Congress, regardless of the situation on the ground.

Even a George Bushian executive order wouldn't make the situation any more palatable to the commanders and troops on the ground who are still struggling to wrap their heads around the fact that they are slaughtering a horde of walking corpses, not a crowd of innocent human beings.

Basically, you're not taking the human factor into account. I seriously doubt that everybody will recognize, accept, and respond intelligently to a zombie outbreak in a timely manner. It's just not a realistic expectation.

I agree it will take a while to figure out what's going on, but in a few hours everyone will know what's going on. With this I am taking the human factor into account. When people see shambling horror attack and chewing on people's heads, they'll know what to do.

Instinct and fear will take over. The scene in the Police Station in the second Resident Evil movie won't last for long.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

It really does depend on where the outbreak begins, and how widespread it is upon beginning. If one man drops dead on a traffic island on Ventura Boulevard at 9 PM and gets up the next morning as a ravenous, flesh-eating zombie, the odds are very slim the outbreak will get far at all. Self-preservation instincts will cause most others to keep away from a seemingly sick, violent individual, and public-health and safety officials and police (who would assuredly be called after the first attempted attack) would quickly realize that something was wrong when the perpetrator failed to respond to warnings, physical restrain, Tazers and gunshots. Anyone physically injured by the zombie (likely to be very few individuals) would more than likely be rounded up for observation once a biological contaminant was thought to be an issue; if one or two infected individuals happened to slip through this effort, we would be back to square one, only with officials on a much higher state of alert.

Now, if this were spread out amongst a city (a vector introduced into a water system or food supply, or through pests such as mosquitoes or rats), involving several hundred or even thousand initial victims, and took place overnight, the situation would be much different. Social structures and law-enforcement chains of command would be shattered, as a number of people who would be looked to for guidance would be amongst the wandering undead. Panic would ensue, local law and order would be lost, and those not wise enough to barricade themselves or escape the initial outbreak zone would very likely be brought down in the initial confusion. However, word would likely reach outside authorities, and within two or three days, martial law would be established by the Army, the city sealed off, and medical encampments set up to isolate refugees until the vector can be determined. Though it would be likely that no small number of zombies would manage to stumble away from the city before this happened- but as they are mindless wanderers, not coordinated attackers, the likelihood of a second high-scale outbreak becomes minimal.

Now, on the world scale (let's say irradiated comet, Venutian space probe, etc.) where 50% or more of the populace is infected... on the short term, this is very bad. Chaos would ensue, order would break down on a large scale, and the likelihood of warfare- even nuclear warfare- instigated by panicking government officials or opportunistic militants rises significantly. Many governments with Cold War-style bunkers and contingency plans will fare relatively well, provided that those in power are not particularly thinned by the infection. Major cities would be held by martial law, and outlying regions held by vigilante justice and rule of the gun (though nations with strict gun-control laws would be far more defenseless). The seemingly contradictory tendencies of people to band together while in danger, and to distrust others while in danger, will prevent more localized secondary outbreaks, while military discipline and greater resources will prove vital to the larger cities. While zombies do not pillage and burn, unchecked fires and other disasters will cause significant but not unrepairable damage to infrastructure and property. Once the initial outbreak fades (given about two weeks before your typical zombie, exposed to the elements, decomposes to the point of being a minimal danger to the living) secondary outbreaks will be more rare, affecting only those strongholds not well-planned or careful enough to deter zombie encroachment and infection. Using a rather generous final casualty figure of 70%, a first-world country would probably see its government begin to rally and regain command within half a year; third-world countries would have a much longer recovery time.

The biggest difference between the original Night of the Living Dead zombie scenario (set in the 60s) and today is communication. A widespread incident would make communication more difficult, but not impossible- and the closer you get to realtime relaying of information regarding threats, survivors and outbreaks, the better that living humans can respond.

Biggest problem with any zombie story- food. I mean, that's why the zombies are running around eating people, right?

Your stereotypical zombies crave flesh- particularly, the flesh of still-living humans. Why this is is never made clear, but I've always thought that the zombies seek critical amino acids to "refuel" their virus-ravaged bodies; however, since their digestive systems are little more than foul acid baths, no amount of food intake is going to help.

 

[Drong]

Ok i got well carried away with this a while back and put Max Brooks World War Z into a basic timeline as the way he described it i felt could actually happen, anyway here it is...


First outbreak in Rural China

Outbreak is initially in poor uneducated villages who take a while to bring it to the attention of the authorities prefering to try and deal with it internally

China fakes military buildup as if to invade Taiwan to disguise it while tries to deal as it so it will not been seen as weak in the eyes of the rest of the world however the existing people smuggling network and the fact that the infected can go for 24 hours or longer without displaying symtoms makes containment tricky.

First outbreaks in Africa (Spread by commercial airlines and smuggling) Reported cases are reffered to as African Rabies/Jungle Rabies, general denail about the nature of the outbreak in the western world.

Some military and intelligence organizations begin to identify the threat but most world leaders dismiss the possibility of a large scale outbreak or the presence of a virus that would reanimate the dead.

A corrupt pharmaceutical developer sells a fake vaccine ("Phalanx") for the zombie virus

First Winter

The decrease of cases over the first winter is credited to Phalanx but is really due to zombie-immobilizing cold weather.

Small elite teams sent to battle infection, initially successful

First Spring

Increased Zombie activity, infection begins to spread across Eastern Europe

A female journalist breaks the news that Phalanx is useless against the virus

Israel sets itself up as a safe zone, enacts a voluntary quarantine, and expands its perimeter wall around the entire country.

The Great Panic Begins

Refugees flees west across Europe quickly spreading the plague with them

The undead begin to outnumber the living in Africa and India.

Zombies arrive in the US; Due to extreme levels denial many are still completely unprepared (personal note: it seems that they floated over and hit the lower east coast first)

Mid Summer

No coherent evacuation plan in the US though the media urge people to go north

Massive campsites set up in Canada, morale generally good.

Outbreaks in many US cities

Autumn

Camps in Canada rapidly run out of food due to lack of preparedness, crime and looting are rife, cases of cannibalism are also reported

Outbreaks of varying degree?s spread to nearly all US cities.

Winter hits (the worst on record, because of all of the particulate matter in the air from the fires of burning cities)

An estimated 11 million people freeze to death in North America alone.

The cold weather again greatly reduces zombie activity

Spring

The Battle Of Yonkers - the U.S. military suffers a tremendous defeat in a highly televised battle against millions of zombies in Yonkers, New York

The eastern United States is abandoned in a massive retreat by the military to establish a new defensive line at the Rocky Mountains.



From here it becomes much more difficult to determine an exact timeline, but the main events play out as follows.


Turning the Tide


The seat of US government is moved to Honolulu, Hawaii, and the majority of surviving Americans are encamped west of the Rockies.

DeStRes is formed to re-structure the military from the extreme high-tech it has been to instead deal with the zombie threat.

US Air force is nearly totally disbanded except to supply safe zones, all US military focus becomes on getting as much bang for your buck

The Redeker Plan is developed in South Africa - Due to danger of infection and low resources, it is determined that not everyone can be saved; "Safe zones" are to be established for some civilians and cleared of all zombies by military personnel. However, a percentage of the population are simply to be used, essentially, as live zombie bait. They are to be set up and supplied in other sanctuaries, to draw zombies away from the safe zones and allow the people there time to regroup and reorient.

Despite initial resistance many other countries begin to implement similar plans



Total War


Full Scale war to reclaim the planet from the undead. Some old military tactics and technology: infantry squares, bolt action rifles, airships, prove better than more modern methods


Post-War


All major cities are retaken. The majority of temperate and tropical areas are cleared. Many zombies remain in cold areas (such as Finland, Iceland, and Siberia), where the undead are frozen solid over much of the year; cleanup must be done during the brief summer thaw. These heavily infested areas are known as "White Zones". Bodies of water are also dangerous -- there are millions of undead under water which occasionally make it to land. The most heavily infected area other than the ocean floor is Iceland, due to a pre-war lack of military resources and an abundance of infected refugees




Big Events which are harder to fit into the time line

Limited Nuclear exchange between Pakistan and Iran

Civil war in China

Sub nukes china high loyalist command to end civil war

 

[Marbas]

How is the infection going to spread rapidly if the body has to die first? People do not hang around dead people. And if the zombie looks irregular, people are not going to go: "Hey buddy are you alright?" without being at least a little cautious. Zombies probably aren't going to be any good at grappling, and biting someone without getting your ass kicked is really hard. Also, it's tough to break skin by biting someone. You can't do it in a flash. I would know, I've tried. You don't have to kill the zombie, you just have to push it far enough so that you can run away.

Sir Brooks also assumes that all the people around patient zero are really really really stupid.

HEY THAT GUY IS SHAMBLING AND MOVING TOWARDS ME, I'M GOING TO LET HIM GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO BITE ME.

If we really want to be realistic, ye olde fashioned zombie outbreak probably wouldn't be sustainable. Second law of thermodynamics and all.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If we really want to be realistic, ye olde fashioned zombie outbreak probably wouldn't be sustainable. Second law of thermodynamics and all.

Except...

Let's say the T-Virus is attached to the Anthrax virus. Easily containable, it travels through the air and grows within the stomach and lungs of it's victim. The victim suffers massive internal damage over a period of time and at it's death, the stomach bursts releasing a cloud of lethal spores, which get into the mucous membranes of anyone nearby.

Oh, and it gets animals as well as humans.

Let's say the T-Virus attacks from within, like the HIV virus, and forces the white blood cells to attack healthy cells as well; whilst growing a cancerlike secondary brain at the top or base of the spine (And there's enough room there). At the moment of normal death, the secondary brain takes over and keeps the heart running, pumping adrenaline and blood throughout the system.
The body will still be starved of oxygen, and will flounder at a slow speed, but it still will be capable of the most basic thoughts; one of which will be the primal idea to save itself.

So, you've got a slow moving zombie that's desperate to find anyone, whilst silently screaming "Help me!" (voicebox will have atrophied due to the lack of moisture). It has the intelligence of a Golden Labrador and breathes almost pure Anthrax.
It's no idea of what's happening to it, because it's lost the social construct of "infection", so it will try ANYthing to get you to help it.
Oh, and if you do kill it, which requires severing the spinal cord, it's stomach contents burst like a bio-chemical bomb.

The bite just makes things 100% likely, breathing on you is 50% effective unless you can cover all your body; whilst it has the panic-strength that most people have if under severe stress.

And if you do a poll of how many 'normal' people actually believe in Zombies, it'll come out very low. They'll just think the guy is a burns victim or something and either help him or ignore them.

Then, they'll feel a little bit of a cough. Can't be much, just must be a cold.

It develops into flu, but that means a day off work. And all the family are round.

Now the family have gone, all got the flu as well. Whoops. Even the dog seems to be a little under the weather.

Stomach ache, just take some medicince, it will be gone in a bit.

Argh, got to get to the Doctor. Ring 999/911. "Hello...I need...a...."

"Hello caller? Caller? *crash* We'll send an ambulance around straight away."

 

[Marbas]

Except...

Let's say the T-Virus is attached to the Anthrax virus. Easily containable, it travels through the air and grows within the stomach and lungs of it's victim. The victim suffers massive internal damage over a period of time and at it's death, the stomach bursts releasing a cloud of lethal spores, which get into the mucous membranes of anyone nearby.

Wrong scenario so I'm going to go ahead and ignore your entire post. Anyways, we've already dealt with things similar to zombie outbreaks, flu outbreaks. A zombie outbreak + airborne transmission is basically a flu that induces insanity and can be spread by biting. There are all sorts of things to take into account, how fast the virus spreads, how contagious it is, lethality*, etc.

Addendum: Your understanding of communications networks and human nature strikes me as pessimistic to say the least. Stop assuming that people are about as smart as retarded children and that people will never catch on. Because that's basically what you're assuming. Once that happens, measures will be taken, and things will pan out like a flu outbreak with exceptionally high lethality. Maybe...20-30% of the worlds population dead.

*The thought of your zombie virus being 100% lethal is...downright bizarre to say the least. Even the Marburg virus doesn't have 100% lethality.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Wrong scenario. We assume airborne transmission then all bets are off.

But how do we know it wasn't always airbourne, or able to mutate? Perfectly reasonable.

Ok, let's make it simply very hardy.

How many bottles of bottled water are sold every day?

Or, let's say the Virus gets into Coke...That's around about a billion servings of the virus per day.

And that's before we go back to the ORIGINAL scenario, where it's just Zombie dust from the Bokor's.

You don't have to kill the zombie, you just have to push it far enough so that you can run away.

And run to where? And why is there only one? Zombies, like most scavengers, hunt in packs.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Wrong scenario so I'm going to go ahead and ignore your entire post.

And you then talk about people obviously not ignoring zombies?

Hello...

*The thought of your zombie virus being 100% lethal is...downright bizarre to say the least. Even the Marburg virus doesn't have 100% lethality.[/quote]
Marburg doesn't re-infect the victim, or destroy the white blood cells though, how many people have ever recovered from AIDS?

Second of all, you aren't putting enough faith in every single person, everyone who has seen a zombie movie will know the signs, assuming that it is a bite outbreak

Of a small sample I did recently, amongst sci-fi movie watchers, 2 out of the 30 have ever bothered to watch a Zombie movie.

Seriously, if you see someone in your local mall bite someone else, are you going to go running to the Police or trying to hack their head off? You'd be sectioned until way after they'd conquered the country. It's not the stupidity of the individual, it's the stupidity of the crowd.

Imagine the streets full of people that were either lynching people believed to be zombies, people with "coughs" as some of you would put it and ransacking buildings for supplies and such.

"He's bringing peace and love!" "Break his legs!"

As I said WAY earlier, it's not about the Undead...it's about what Humanity will fall to.

The second law of thermodynamics falls to the very first law of Humanity. "It's Mine!"

 

[Marbas]

Wrong scenario. We assume airborne transmission then all bets are off.

But how do we know it wasn't always airbourne, or able to mutate? Perfectly reasonable.

Ok, let's make it simply very hardy.

How many bottles of bottled water are sold every day?

Or, let's say the Virus gets into Coke...That's around about a billion servings of the virus per day.

And that's before we go back to the ORIGINAL scenario, where it's just Zombie dust from the Bokor's.

You don't have to kill the zombie, you just have to push it far enough so that you can run away.

And run to where? And why is there only one? Zombies, like most scavengers, hunt in packs.

Somewhere where there are no zombies? People can travel in packs too. Nomadic tribes were common once. If people have a watch rotation and stay on the move...it wouldn't be that tough to stay alive. They WALK for christsakes.

This thread isn't really reasonable to begin with. A person infected with that type of virus who is a zombie would be recognizable and terrifying. They would be covered in excrement and bodily waste, a virus like that wouldn't care about social mores, if it did, then we probably aren't dealing with a virus anymore. Once word gets out about the virus, measures will be taken on an international level ala SARS and H15N1.


Word would get out about the contaminated coke batch eventually. Product testing for health and safety is mandatory. People would stop drinking coke. If it got into the water? Well...that depends on how close it is to a treatment plant. Your virus isn't living through treatment plants. If you say it can then I will stab you for being ignorant.

 

[Marbas]

]
Marburg doesn't re-infect the victim, or destroy the white blood cells though, how many people have ever recovered from AIDS?

So...we have an airborne AIDS virus?

Yeah...you just rendered the zombie part of the scenario irrelevant. We have much bigger problems. So uh...way to totally change the subject. These victims would be treated like obvious lepers and probably wouldn't be able to get out the hospital. They would be covered in sores and other terrible things. Tumors would be all over them from rampant ontological viruses. Your zombie can't exist unless the virus acts as another immune system, and after that I'm willing to bet we aren't in Kansas anymore. Their muscles would be so atrophied that the zombie wouldn't be able to bite anyone. It would just sit there groaning. There's a reason end stage AIDs patients are bound to wheel-chairs.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If you say it can then I will stab you for being ignorant.

You're far worse than any Zombie infestation if you talk like that.

 

[Marbas]

If you say it can then I will stab you for being ignorant.

You're far worse than any Zombie infestation if you talk like that.

I'm sorry. Would you like a hug?

 

[Lucane]

If you have read the works of Max Brooks, (World War Z) you must know that the greatest danger is not a single zombie confined to one area. The true danger comes with the ability of an infected, but not yet dead person to quickly travel internationaly. When your hypothetical Los Angeles starts to evacuate, those with the means to do so will get as far away as possible, and spread the infection not only to surrounding cities, but around the entire world.

Ahh i wanted to say it... but yeah since if your just bitten by a random person you'll likely have two options about what to think.
1. It's a lunatic an you just need a band-aid and then go about your day/ or go to a hospital.
or
2. It'a a Zombie there's no known cure an your going to die soon or sooner and then panic, hope it's not true, attemp to seek help, eliminate yourself, etc. or for a more darker note position yourself to be in a prime situation to infect doszens ifnot more apon turning.
Then there's the element of people who would try to protect possible infected friends/family/loved ones at any or all points after signs of possible infection.

Also when the exsistance of zombies is confirmed the kill rate of uninfected people would quite likly rise do to detection of unknown cuts bites or zombie like actions by less than cerified medic/scientist in the waking histeria an panic some what like what happens when wars start with people who "appear to resemble" the characteristics of people of the rival country/nation living in/near your nation/country. Which would then cuase flase alerts of zombie outbreaks to occur in actual safe-zones that if then proven safe publicly outside of the areas in question doubt would then spread where other true infected areas are to prevent additional panic on an already trobled area.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If you say it can then I will stab you for being ignorant.

You're far worse than any Zombie infestation if you talk like that.

I'm sorry. Would you like a hug?

Not a hug, just a little understanding here. If you're saying that all of our defences are perfectly capable of dealing with something as simple as a classic Zombie infestation when we can't deal with things like Hurricane Katrina, HN51 or the simple Cold; then it's highlighting why something that CAN circumvent this will be so dangerous.

Technician Root : "Sir, we've found something in the water purifiers. We think it could be harmful."
Director Marbas : "Nothing can get through, we're perfectly safe."
Technician Root : "But Sir, this could be dangerous. It's already got past the membrane filters."
Director Marbas stabs Technician Root.
Director Marbas : "Nothing has gone wrong with the plant for years. I won't hear of any problems. Increase the Chlorine Dioxine levels to 25%"
Technician Root : "....brains?"

Whilst the Zombie Infection is completely (I hope) mythical, most Zombie movies always start with a Clandestine Group believing that 'They can defeat it.'

 

[Marbas]

If you say it can then I will stab you for being ignorant.

You're far worse than any Zombie infestation if you talk like that.

I'm sorry. Would you like a hug?

Not a hug, just a little understanding here. If you're saying that all of our defences are perfectly capable of dealing with something as simple as a classic Zombie infestation when we can't deal with things like Hurricane Katrina, HN51 or the simple Cold; then it's highlighting why something that CAN circumvent this will be so dangerous.

Technician Root : "Sir, we've found something in the water purifiers. We think it could be harmful."
Director Marbas : "Nothing can get through, we're perfectly safe."
Technician Root : "But Sir, this could be dangerous. It's already got past the membrane filters."
Director Marbas stabs Technician Root.
Director Marbas : "Nothing has gone wrong with the plant for years. I won't hear of any problems. Increase the Chlorine Dioxine levels to 25%"
Technician Root : "....brains?"

Your virus is living through chlorine treatments? I quit. Like I said, the problem isn't the zombies after that point. It's the fact that we've got an airborne or waterborne plague that's almost supernaturally hardy given it's necessary complexity that makes the ebola virus look like the chicken pox.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Your virus is living through chlorine treatments? I quit.

It might. (Wiki: Although chlorine is effective in killing bacteria, it has limited effectiveness against protozoans that form cysts in water (Giardia lamblia and Cryptosporidium, both of which are pathogenic).)
But the problem is what you then go on to point out.

... the problem isn't the zombies after that point. It's the fact that we've got an airborne or waterborne plague that's almost supernaturally hardy given it's necessary complexity that makes the ebola virus look like the chicken pox.

The problem is very rarely the Zombies. They're just the necessary bad guy. Triffids are even slower than Zombies and only reproduce via normal methods.

Most Zombie films are about the conflict of Humanity with each other. Let's say that probably your Chlorination kills my virus stone dead, as it should.

But someone thinks it didn't.

There could be a worldwide panic about this evil Virus that's immune to harm. (Sort of like the Myth's surrounding Nessie, Bigfoot, Area 51 etc.)

And it also has a positive side, many groups run "What if?" scenarios in case of 'The Unthinkable"; The Hoover Dam has a number of fail-safes and even if my work is the target of a bombing campaign; we've strict instructions on how to deal with it.(Basically : Run for the nearest pub with a cellar....Hmm...Pity it's not the Winchester)

 

[Lucane]

"you mention heavy machine guns and explosives and also max brooks books
one of the chapters in world war z shows how ineffective explosives and machine guns"

With all due respect to him, Max Brooks is clearly thick as two short planks if he thinks Machine Guns and Explosives will be inneffectual. Your firing high-powered weapons at slow-moving humans. Even if you don't decapitate them, you'll still probably either burn them to death (incendiary rounds) or immobilise them. And explosives are a ditto.

But he didn't write the book from a military sense it was average civilion your not likly to find naplam laying around but handgranades an legal hunting gear is more likly obtainable if you were to only have one weapon for the entire time you'd find yourself incumbered by the amount it would take to stop dozens of zombies advancing at once compared to accuratly shoting or otherwise breaking the brain without indangering yourself from blast radius.