Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?

Erttheking

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Ricardo Lima said:
That I don't really like people who try and quell criticism. And your comments kind of reek of dismissal.

Plus your "I call it as I see it" tactics also reek of oversimplifying opposing viewpoints.
 

Ricardo Lima

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erttheking said:
Ricardo Lima said:
That I don't really like people who try and quell criticism. And your comments kind of reek of dismissal.

Plus your "I call it as I see it" tactics also reek of oversimplifying opposing viewpoints.
Says the guy determined to find offense in what I say and quell my criticism. I validate your unrealistic complaint but you keep going at this. I stated I wasnt directing the comment at everyone who has criticism yet you kept at it.
Im not going to silence you nor you me.

Clarify to me which viewpoint Im oversimplifying please.
 

Jake Martinez

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LifeCharacter said:
Jake Martinez said:
Fictional characters.

It's all for fun, right? So why does everyone have to get butt hurt over other people having fun?
Maybe because they're not having as much fun? Maybe because the thing you think is fun isn't as fun for them? I mean, I know it's horrible that they'd dare to actually vocalize their dislike of a thing you like, but that's probably the reason, rather than them just wanting to ruin your fun.
No, they really do just want to ruin people's fun.

Metal Gear franchise has always had improbably good looking and sexy characters doing crazy stuff. It's the aesthetic of the game since the first release and has only gotten better since. Hideo Kojima is even on the record talking about character design this way, to the point where he admits overly sexualizing characters just so that people will want to cosplay them at conventions.

So, to me, complaining about this is like complaining about how Michael Bay makes movies for teenage boys with lots of explosions. It's like - that's what Michael bay does. It's like watching a gay porn film and complaining that there are too many guys having sex with each other. What else do you expect?

People complaining are really just trying to give bogus reasons why other people should stop liking the things they like. The frustration and anger from them obviously is because this doesn't work and never has. I'm more than content to still go out and buy my overly sexualized video games. the new DOA, Senran Kagura and eventually HunniePop sequel are all on this list - You see, I like these kind of games. I'm raising my hand right here as the market demographic for video games that have sexy women in them. I'm not alone considering how well they sell.

Sorry if it bothers you, actually that's not right - I'm sorry that you're bothered that other people enjoy things like this. I wish there was some way for you to ignore me having fun. Maybe everyone would be happier then.
 

Jake Martinez

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LifeCharacter said:
Jake Martinez said:
No, they really do just want to ruin people's fun.
I got to here before I stopped putting any stock in what you had to say. Partly because you seem to think that because Hideo Kojima designed a character a certain way and has a habit of doing such that he and his works are beyond any and all criticism no matter the circumstances. But mostly because you want to believe that anyone who disagrees with you is just some irrational fun vampire out to ruin everyone's good time because they couldn't possibly just want something less stupid or sexist to enjoy themselves. Apparently "I think this game is great and I love this character but wow that outfit's dumb and the reason even more so" should be taken as "I hate this game and everyone who likes it."

I would feel sorry that you immediately assume that people who dare criticize things you like are just doing it because they hate that you're having fun, but it's such an obnoxious mindset to have that I'm having trouble doing so. So... yeah, enjoy that.
I think really I'm only drawing the conclusion that I am because of the nature of the criticism is overwrought and seems highly agitated. Like it's simply not enough for people to state their case, they NEED other people to agree with them. Like for instance, you seem very agitated that I am not agreeing with you and that I find continued "expressions of critcisim", particularly from the same people, ad naesuem, to be less of a "here is my opinion" type of scenario and more of "stop liking things I don't like scenario".

It's a pity that you "stopped reading" what I had to say, maybe it would have given you some insight into how a certain type of behavior is being viewed by people who are generally happy with the MGS franchise, you know, the people who keep buying it...


Also, I would like to point out that sexualization is not sexism, or sexist. In 2015, no one really believes that do they?
 

DoPo

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Jake Martinez said:
No, they really do just want to ruin people's fun.
If your, or anybody's, fun is so easily spoiled, I would hazard a guess that that something is wrong. In fact, if you, or anybody, suddenly stops having fun when this happens, this sounds a bit like "getting butt hurt", to me.

What was that you said about that state?
 

Jake Martinez

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DoPo said:
Jake Martinez said:
No, they really do just want to ruin people's fun.
If your, or anybody's, fun is so easily spoiled, I would hazard a guess that that something is wrong. In fact, if you, or anybody, suddenly stops having fun when this happens, this sounds a bit like "getting butt hurt", to me.

What was that you said about that state?
What you said doesn't make any sense.

Imagine you wanted to watch a movie about giant Robots fighting Giant monsters. Then afterwards, someone comes along and removes all the fighting. They now hug each other and sing.

Your fun has been effectively ruined, right?

From my perspective, the content that is being criticized in the MGS franchise, has been there as part of the design aesthetic from the beginning. If this was another game like Tetris or something and they decided to turn all the blocks into boobs and penis's then I think I might be more sympathetic to people "criticizing" the content. Surely, that'd be a huge departure from what fans of Tetris would expect!

As it stands now, I simply think that the complaints are more akin to being upset at water for being wet. MGS simply is being MGS, just like it has all along. If you don't like a character design, then really what you don't like is MGS's design aesthetic.

I'm simply just pointing out that some people seem to be incapable of letting other people enjoy things. They get really mad about it. There's a lot of that all over this thread right now, isn't there?
 

Jake Martinez

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LifeCharacter said:
Jake Martinez said:
I think really I'm only drawing the conclusion that I am because of the nature of the criticism is overwrought and seems highly agitated. Like it's simply not enough for people to state their case, they NEED other people to agree with them. Like for instance, you seem very agitated that I am not agreeing with you and that I find continued "expressions of critcisim", particularly from the same people, ad naesuem, to be less of a "here is my opinion" type of scenario and more of "stop liking things I don't like scenario".
I wasn't aware being agitated meant that you had suddenly devoted your time to ruining other people's fun. Nor was I aware that having the same people having the same criticism for the same things was some weird occurrence that means there must be some ulterior motive behind it; I would take that to mean that those particular people don't like a thing and express their dislike when they see it, especially if they see what they dislike in a prominent place, and even more especially if it's in something they otherwise like. I guess being consistent means that you're being disingenuous and you have an ulterior motive?
I don't really think there is much worth responding to out of your post except for the above passage. I'm going to try to help you understand how you are coming off to people and hopefully it will make it easier for you to express yourself in the future in a way that is constructive.

Now imagine that you are a fan of a local pizza parlor. They make a great pizza that you really enjoy. You buy it at least once a week.

One day, out of the blue, I am over at your house and I take one look at your pizza and say, "Well that's terrible. They should make a pizza that has less sauce on it and more cheese."

You might look at me at that point and say, "But this is the pizza that they make. It's the one I enjoy."

I turn around and say, "But it SHOULD have less sauce and more cheese or I can't enjoy it."

At that point, I think it would be entirely reasonable for you to point out to me that not only are YOU the one enjoying the pizza (not me) but that there are plenty of alternatives out there, other places that make pizza, that I might enjoy. Once doing so, if I turn around and still insist regardless, THIS pizza should STILL have less sauce and more cheese, I think it's reasonable for you to assume that my behavior has gone past merely expressing my opinion and into the realm of the absurd.

I think that's really where we are right now. This argument, which is entirely about subjective tastes, is more or less absurd. I think most people are perfectly happy to hear someones opinion, even if they don't agree with it, I think also however that it starts to border on unacceptable public behavior for people to insist that their subjective opinions are correct.

On one hand, I absolutely agree that people have a right to criticize, even subjectively. I just don't think that extends to being immune from criticism, such as the charges I am leveling at many of these individuals, namely that they are attempting to police other people's tastes and choices. I don't think there is some magical power that comes along with having an opinion that makes it so that your opinion has to be automatically accepted. Clearly I don't accept yours, and I'm not wrong in doing so.

At the end of the day I find it highly unlikely that you're going to convince me that your subjective opinion on tasteful matters such as these is more valuable than my own, and I think it's more than apt to point out that there may be a better use of your time than continuing to annoy people with unwanted opinions about the things they enjoy.

Certainly you can ignore this, but unless you get some sense of pleasure out of denigrating other people's tastes in entertainment, I don't see why anyone would.

I hope that makes sense.
 

Ricardo Lima

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DeanCain said:
Ricardo Lima said:
Avoid name-calling even implied. It's possible to agree to disagree. I stated my opinion clearly and I did not direct it at any specific person. When I mentioned originally moral crusader seems to me you and others took it very personally. Why?
Saw your response to errtheking after this one. I don't take the term moral crusader personally. If you'll notice, I don't say much of anything on social topics. No, I just hate the mentality that's become more and more prevalent on this site since the start of GG that I'M just trying to explain my point of view rationally but the enemy can't possibly be serious and/or intelligent because they don't agree with me. So because people here disagree with you, they clearly must be sex negative moral crusaders. Because that's totally not meant perjoratively, right? The response of the "anti-PC" crowd is "Quit complaining about other point of view because you're totally stupid and wrong!", showing an astounding lack of self awareness. Don't care about naked vidja game characters; totally hate blatant hypocrisy.
Dean, I strongly oppose the mentality you are describing. I'm not always right nor is anyone else. You are never closer to being totally wrong than when you believe you are totally right. Fanaticism for any cause is a mind killer.

Again I never said everyone disagreeing with me is a moral crusader and I did post a quote and a article exemplifying my non- imaginary moral crusaders. Do you at least recognize they exist?
 
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pookie101 said:
lets see the only female character you have, who dresses like a stripper, rolls around like a stripper, where the camera focuses on her ass and breasts, who says nothing all because of "breathing through her skin".. which makes no sense anyway because she has body paint and clothing options later

it feels tacky to be honest and goes so far beyond fan service it plows straight on into wank service.

why are people getting upset at it? well if she wasnt treated as some twisted males ideal of the perfect female who doesnt say anything and just looks and acts like a whore, she would be one of the most interesting characters seen this year.

the industry has reached the point of this sort of BS is crossing into completely unacceptable territory, konami and kojima still act like the only people who play games are 12 yo males.

plus the fact some people cant even see who it might be offensive to others is part of the issue
Did you consider that people might take offense to your post? I mean... Whilst you were caught up in your righteous indignation, did you consider what you were actually saying about those who might take a different view to you?

Food for thought. If being offensive is always bad, then shame on you. If you don't feel bad, then maybe you shouldn't get on your high-horse so easily about other people not being completely sensitive to the offense of others either. Is it different when it's you doing it?

If it's "unacceptable" for you, then don't play it. Or are we talking broadly here? Is this "unacceptable" for anyone to consume? You could surely imagine how people might not take kindly to that?
 

Jake Martinez

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
If it's "unacceptable" for you, then don't play it. Or are we talking broadly here? Is this "unacceptable" for anyone to consume? You could surely imagine how people might not take kindly to that?
This is exactly the point I am trying to make.

Some people seem to believe that the general issue of sexism in society gives them license to take a purely reductionist view on sexuality in media content. And yes, it's very offensive to people who understand that there is a difference between say, a single portrayal of sexualized content in a piece of media, and the overall general cultural issues of sexism.

So in that light, when someone is trying to draw a direct correlation (I know, it's ludicrous, but we're dealing with reductionist logic here) certainly anyone who enjoys the media in question is going to be offended. It simply doesn't seem possible that me enjoying an attractive video game character is responsible for societal attitudes on gender roles, so using it as a proxy this way is in essence making me responsible for the perceived behavior of other people.

Who wouldn't take offense to that?

There is more evidence that alcohol causes deaths than video games cause sexism. Does that mean that I'm not allowed to enjoy a beer after work because other people might drink 20 of them and decide to run over a farmers market?
 

setting_son

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I'm in two minds about Quiet.

On the one hand she is definitely tied with D-Dog for my favourite buddy. She's absolutely the most useful and I'm glad she is in the game. Her character definitely deserves the amount of focus she receives.

HOWEVER

I'm all for nudity in games - provided it makes sense in context. The plot justification for Quiet's clothing was utterly flimsy and more than a little contrived... Even if we buy into the 'she needs to be naked to breathe' justification - she spends a lot of her on-screen time writhing around, stretching and generally getting her buttocks all over the screen.

Quiet is introduced to us as this bad-ass commando who turns up to assassinate Big Boss, I find it rather jarring that next time we see her she has changed not just in appearance but also in behaviour.

Case in point - my girlfriend was happily attaching sheep to balloons and roaming around on a horse but the way Quiet was presented soured the game for her.

Now, I'm not saying that Quiet offended me to the point that it made me dislike MGS V. I am in love with the game. However, this did lessen my enjoyment slightly and I can see how it would make some people feel quite alienated and uncomfortable playing the game.

(And yes, I am aware that MGS has always been a bit silly. And yes, I know Sniper Wolf was under-dressed for the climate but I think we can all agree that Quiet's design is several orders of magnitude stupider than anything in MGS and historic eccentricity shouldn't be a get out of jail free card to avoid all criticism)
 

Jake Martinez

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setting_son said:
Case in point - my girlfriend was happily attaching sheep to balloons and roaming around on a horse but the way Quiet was presented soured the game for her.
I really love the juxtaposition of that statement and how it shows that subjectively people are more than happy to ignore realism in some cases, but not in others.

(And yes, I am aware that MGS has always been a bit silly. And yes, I know Sniper Wolf was under-dressed for the climate but I think we can all agree that Quiet's design is several orders of magnitude stupider than anything in MGS and historic eccentricity shouldn't be a get out of jail free card to avoid all criticism)
No, unfortunately, we can't. I personally like her character design. I don't find anything stupid about it at all.
 

setting_son

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Jake Martinez said:
setting_son said:
Case in point - my girlfriend was happily attaching sheep to balloons and roaming around on a horse but the way Quiet was presented soured the game for her.
I really love the juxtaposition of that statement and how it shows that subjectively people are more than happy to ignore realism in some cases, but not in others.

(And yes, I am aware that MGS has always been a bit silly. And yes, I know Sniper Wolf was under-dressed for the climate but I think we can all agree that Quiet's design is several orders of magnitude stupider than anything in MGS and historic eccentricity shouldn't be a get out of jail free card to avoid all criticism)
No, unfortunately, we can't. I personally like her character design. I don't find anything stupid about it at all.

Who said anything about her issue being related to realism? I don't think her issue was with realism so much as with the way that the only major female character in the game was portrayed.

You don't find it to be a stupid design? That's fine, we have different opinions.

Regardless of that - whether you find the design stupid or not, presumably you can see how some people might find Quiet's design not to their liking and that this might impact on their experience of the game overall?

It's just my two cents. I don't expect anyone to endorse my opinion or change theirs to match. I don't expect Konami to change Quiet's design just so my girlfriend can play MGS without having to roll her eyes when she's on screen.
 

Tilly

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Well she's a bit silly. But I don't have much sympathy for people who make it into a massive thing as if this is some great moral evil in society. It's 1 character in 1 game. Games on the whole don't really do this stuff much anymore. And when they do, 90% of it comes from Japan. You don't see this in western games much at all. Just let it be. The odd sexualised character is fine.
 

Erttheking

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Ricardo Lima said:
Where am I offended and where am I quelling your criticism? I'm criticizing your criticism, hardly quelling. Validated in an incredibly dismissive way. It's basically a not!apology, like you just did right now. It's like apologizing for insulting someone by saying "I'm sorry you're so thin skinned"

Frankly the whole "sex negative moral crusader* seems overblown. Even the people who write those articles linking Quiet to sexual violence, saying they're sex negative feels like an assumption that's jumped to.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Ricardo Lima said:
Never heard of it. And I'm not talking about satirical work. The people accusing Quiets outfit is stimulating sexual violence, misogynistic, problematic, etc are in doing what exactly?
Not posting on the Escapist, as far as I can tell.

Ricardo Lima said:
altnameJag said:
I have a morbid curiosity to know what a non-"Moral-Crusader" critique of Quiet would even look like at this point.
https://archive.is/hRN3d /
A non "moral-crusader" critique of Quiet looks like a scathing rebuke of MGS: Ground Forces centering around the audio log where Chico and Paz are tortured and raped?
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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A lot of people accept her as fan service, as do I. But Kojima has repeatedly said that she isn't, she dresses like that because she breathes through her skin. Which is immediately contradicted by her unlockable costumes. So he is either a liar, hypocrite or someone who is too bashful to admit that she is fan service.