Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?

Ricardo Lima

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altnameJag said:
Ricardo Lima said:
Never heard of it. And I'm not talking about satirical work. The people accusing Quiets outfit is stimulating sexual violence, misogynistic, problematic, etc are in doing what exactly?
Not posting on the Escapist, as far as I can tell.

Ricardo Lima said:
altnameJag said:
I have a morbid curiosity to know what a non-"Moral-Crusader" critique of Quiet would even look like at this point.
https://archive.is/hRN3d /
A non "moral-crusader" critique of Quiet looks like a scathing rebuke of MGS: Ground Forces centering around the audio log where Chico and Paz are tortured and raped?
I quoted a post of someone saying Quiet is using a whore outfit on this topic alongside the article. Not posting on the escapist, seriously?

The article is moral crusading over the tape is it not? Are you saying its not scathing over morals?

You want a more specific Quiet one? Ok. Here https://archive.is/HqwfE or are you going to say he is not making a moral judgement over her outfit, Its just saying its problematic?
 

Ricardo Lima

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erttheking said:
Ricardo Lima said:
Where am I offended and where am I quelling your criticism? I'm criticizing your criticism, hardly quelling. Validated in an incredibly dismissive way. It's basically a not!apology, like you just did right now. It's like apologizing for insulting someone by saying "I'm sorry you're so thin skinned"

Frankly the whole "sex negative moral crusader* seems overblown. Even the people who write those articles linking Quiet to sexual violence, saying they're sex negative feels like an assumption that's jumped to.
You are thin skinned. You went way out your way to justify feeling insulted.

I don't think its overblown. And I view them as sex negative. You don't, fine. We will survive.
 

Erttheking

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Ricardo Lima said:
erttheking said:
Ricardo Lima said:
Where am I offended and where am I quelling your criticism? I'm criticizing your criticism, hardly quelling. Validated in an incredibly dismissive way. It's basically a not!apology, like you just did right now. It's like apologizing for insulting someone by saying "I'm sorry you're so thin skinned"

Frankly the whole "sex negative moral crusader* seems overblown. Even the people who write those articles linking Quiet to sexual violence, saying they're sex negative feels like an assumption that's jumped to.
You are thin skinned. You went way out your way to justify feeling insulted.

I don't think its overblown. And I view them as sex negative. You don't, fine. We will survive.
*Rolls eyes* Sure, if you say so.

I never questioned our survival.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Ricardo Lima said:
The article is moral crusading over the tape is it not? Are you saying its not scathing over morals?

You want a more specific Quiet one? Ok. Here https://archive.is/HqwfE or are you going to say he is not making a moral judgement over her outfit, Its just saying its problematic?
When you add "non" as a prefix, it means "something that is not"

You said:
Ricardo Lima said:
I did not say everyone who dislikes the game is a moral crusader, or even said everyone who dislikes Quiets outfit is one.
I was musing on what such a post would look like.
 

Amir Kondori

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The thing that really bugs me about people who rail against characters like Quiet is that they seem to believe these types of characters should not exist in games, full stop. That they are inherently sexist and bad.

I completely disagree. Sexuality is a huge part of the human experience. It is how we propagate the species, it feels great, and is a central part of most people's lives. That includes not just penetrative sex, but masturbation, other sexual contact, looking at beautiful people, the clothes we wear, makeup, and many other expressions. Sexuality should be there as a part of the experience in any medium that wants to include it.

I don't want to see less sexy women, I want to see more sexy men. I want to see sexuality and even, when appropriate, sexualized men, women, and others, who exist in game only to tease and excite. I want that to be there and a part of the experience for straight men, straight women, gay men and women, and every one under the sun. Cheese is great and there is a reason why it has been relatively prevalent in gaming. I don't want to see it curtailed, I want to see it expanded to a wider audience.
 

Tilly

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008Zulu said:
A lot of people accept her as fan service, as do I. But Kojima has repeatedly said that she isn't, she dresses like that because she breathes through her skin. Which is immediately contradicted by her unlockable costumes. So he is either a liar, hypocrite or someone who is too bashful to admit that she is fan service.
Lol did you really think that he'd came up with that logic first and then just followed it to its conclusion in order to design the character?
Or did he come up with the character first and then realize he'd get some stick for it so he'd need a bullshit excuse to deflect it.

blank0000 said:
litmus test:

What do women here think?
Women have the same variety of opinions as men do.
 

pookie101

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
pookie101 said:
lets see the only female character you have, who dresses like a stripper, rolls around like a stripper, where the camera focuses on her ass and breasts, who says nothing all because of "breathing through her skin".. which makes no sense anyway because she has body paint and clothing options later

it feels tacky to be honest and goes so far beyond fan service it plows straight on into wank service.

why are people getting upset at it? well if she wasnt treated as some twisted males ideal of the perfect female who doesnt say anything and just looks and acts like a whore, she would be one of the most interesting characters seen this year.

the industry has reached the point of this sort of BS is crossing into completely unacceptable territory, konami and kojima still act like the only people who play games are 12 yo males.

plus the fact some people cant even see who it might be offensive to others is part of the issue
Did you consider that people might take offense to your post? I mean... Whilst you were caught up in your righteous indignation, did you consider what you were actually saying about those who might take a different view to you?

Food for thought. If being offensive is always bad, then shame on you. If you don't feel bad, then maybe you shouldn't get on your high-horse so easily about other people not being completely sensitive to the offense of others either. Is it different when it's you doing it?

If it's "unacceptable" for you, then don't play it. Or are we talking broadly here? Is this "unacceptable" for anyone to consume? You could surely imagine how people might not take kindly to that?
for starters im not stopping anyone from playing it, enjoying kokimas immature fan service, cos playing it, hell dress up in the bed room like it for all i care

i also totally accept others have a different view to me, i also dont actually care about someones opinion if they defend this pandering to a wank job. so if what i say offends them .. well enjoy being offended
 

wulf3n

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Samtemdo8 said:
Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?
Why? Because most gamers can't seem to express their opinion in a non-combative way. This causes people to get defensive and lash out. The end result being a nothing issue spiralling out of control.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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erttheking said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Because she's an even more blatant source of fanservice in a world that isn't strictly devised for fanservice.
Who the fuck wears a bikini top to battle?
Someone who breathes through artificial skin after you basically set her on fire and screwed up her lungs beyond even MGS magic medical science..
You know, there are two types of explanation in media, I find. An explanation that is worked into the world and is part of the world, and an explanation that was forced to make the director's decision fit even though it doesn't mesh with the rest of the story that well. Usually created after the thing it's justifying was implemented.

This whole breathing through her skin thing reeks of the second one.
...You have never played a Metal Gear Solid game before have you? This is a series where Bipedal roaring Tanks that shoot railgun launched nukes is one of the more sensible things in it! Psychics that break the 4th wall, arm transplants, people getting possessed by ghosts of the original owner of said arm, people getting hypnotized to behave as if they're possessed by aforementioned ghost arm, guys covered in bees, 100 year old partially vegetative snipers, a clone going nuts because he doesn't understand genetics, cyborg ninja that basically tell physics to ***** down, whatever the hell The Sorrow was, whatever the hell Vamp was, viruses that ca somehow attack specific people, Decoy Octopus managing to change himself completely into another person by doing something with their blood, AI that rule the world through controlling memes, andon, and on, and on!

All this, ALL OF THIS, and a person having to breath through their skin which requires them to dress skimpily is somehow over the line for you!?
 

blank0000

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Tilly said:
008Zulu said:
A lot of people accept her as fan service, as do I. But Kojima has repeatedly said that she isn't, she dresses like that because she breathes through her skin. Which is immediately contradicted by her unlockable costumes. So he is either a liar, hypocrite or someone who is too bashful to admit that she is fan service.
Lol did you really think that he'd came up with that logic first and then just followed it to its conclusion in order to design the character?
Or did he come up with the character first and then realize he'd get some stick for it so he'd need a bullshit excuse to deflect it.

blank0000 said:
litmus test:

What do women here think?
Women have the same variety of opinions as men do.
That's vague and dismisses the question.

I'm asking, who here is a woman and what is their opinion on a character that is arguably an objectified representation of a women?
 

Erttheking

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Who said anything about it crossing a line? All of Kojima's attempts to explain the way his world works tend to be asinine. It works best when it comes to simpler concepts (The Shagohod was basically a really big tank with a rocket strapped to it) or when it just goes balls to the wall insane (Think everything from Revengance)

Everything else is just kind of a mess, Quiet is just the most recent piece of it. Also it's doubly annoying because from what I've heard she's been compared directly to The End in terms of abilities, and he got away with a full body combat suit.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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erttheking said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
Who said anything about it crossing a line? All of Kojima's attempts to explain the way his world works tend to be asinine. It works best when it comes to simpler concepts (The Shagohod was basically a really big tank with a rocket strapped to it) or when it just goes balls to the wall insane (Think everything from Revengance)

Everything else is just kind of a mess, Quiet is just the most recent piece of it. Also it's doubly annoying because from what I've heard she's been compared directly to The End in terms of abilities, and he got away with a full body combat suit.
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
 

Erttheking

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Metalix Knightmare said:
erttheking said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
Who said anything about it crossing a line? All of Kojima's attempts to explain the way his world works tend to be asinine. It works best when it comes to simpler concepts (The Shagohod was basically a really big tank with a rocket strapped to it) or when it just goes balls to the wall insane (Think everything from Revengance)

Everything else is just kind of a mess, Quiet is just the most recent piece of it. Also it's doubly annoying because from what I've heard she's been compared directly to The End in terms of abilities, and he got away with a full body combat suit.
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
If she literally had no lungs, shouldn't she be producing Chlorophyll among other things? I'm sorry, this like many other things is the reason I struggle to take Metal Gear seriously, despite how charming it can be at times. This is just insane.

Talk about damning with faint praise.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Tilly said:
Or did he come up with the character first and then realize he'd get some stick for it so he'd need a bullshit excuse to deflect it.
I don't think he counted on getting flak for it.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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erttheking said:
If she literally had no lungs, shouldn't she be producing Chlorophyll among other things? I'm sorry, this like many other things is the reason I struggle to take Metal Gear seriously, despite how charming it can be at times. This is just insane.

Talk about damning with faint praise.
Yeah, I'm expecting someone with The Ends abilities jacked up to eleven to look quite a bit more like Poison Ivy too.

If anything, Quiet's torn fishnets and leather sleeve are directly hindering her breathing. Overlapping, sheer flowing light fabrics would probably do the job better.

Of course, that would require Kojima to have an editor. Same complaint I have about a lot of talented creators who go way off the deep end.

Ricardo Lima said:
altnamejag said:
When you add "non" as a prefix, it means "something that is not"

You said:
Ricardo Lima said:
I did not say everyone who dislikes the game is a moral crusader, or even said everyone who dislikes Quiets outfit is one.
I was musing on what such a post would look like.
Like this: " Everyone who does not like this game or Quiet's outfit is a moral crusader".
Im surprised you could not figure this out nor see the quote. Im starting to believe you have dodging reality problem.
I believe I'm having a language barrier problem, personally. So, is there a way to have a problem with Quiet as a character design without being a moral crusader?
 

DoPo

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Jake Martinez said:
DoPo said:
Jake Martinez said:
No, they really do just want to ruin people's fun.
If your, or anybody's, fun is so easily spoiled, I would hazard a guess that that something is wrong. In fact, if you, or anybody, suddenly stops having fun when this happens, this sounds a bit like "getting butt hurt", to me.

What was that you said about that state?
What you said doesn't make any sense.

Imagine you wanted to watch a movie about giant Robots fighting Giant monsters. Then afterwards, someone comes along and removes all the fighting. They now hug each other and sing.

Your fun has been effectively ruined, right?
What you said doesn't make any sense.

Imagine you wanted to watch a movie about giant Robots fighting Giant monsters. Then afterwards, somebody comes along and doesn't do anything to the movie, just says it's stupid. The movie continues to exist.

Now your fun stays intact.

Or so I would have thought, because that's exactly what's going on now. Somebody complained, and now you take offence in that. Thus ironically you are calling out people for being "butt hurt" just because you are.
 
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blank0000 said:
litmus test:

What do women here think?
I don't know what your angle is really, but women have been commenting the whole time.


Jake Martinez said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
If it's "unacceptable" for you, then don't play it. Or are we talking broadly here? Is this "unacceptable" for anyone to consume? You could surely imagine how people might not take kindly to that?
This is exactly the point I am trying to make.

Some people seem to believe that the general issue of sexism in society gives them license to take a purely reductionist view on sexuality in media content. And yes, it's very offensive to people who understand that there is a difference between say, a single portrayal of sexualized content in a piece of media, and the overall general cultural issues of sexism.

So in that light, when someone is trying to draw a direct correlation (I know, it's ludicrous, but we're dealing with reductionist logic here) certainly anyone who enjoys the media in question is going to be offended. It simply doesn't seem possible that me enjoying an attractive video game character is responsible for societal attitudes on gender roles, so using it as a proxy this way is in essence making me responsible for the perceived behavior of other people.

Who wouldn't take offense to that?

There is more evidence that alcohol causes deaths than video games cause sexism. Does that mean that I'm not allowed to enjoy a beer after work because other people might drink 20 of them and decide to run over a farmers market?
That's ignoring the accusations of being stuck in arrested development. This stuff is just for 12 year olds, don't you know?

It should be noted that it's perfectly reasonable for people to be suspicious of/take disliking to people who use language that strongly suggests that they would happily decide what you can and can't consume for you. Not everything is acceptable, I suspect we're largely on the same page about child-pornography and snuff-films, but that's not the subject of the day(those things are also illegal). We can have conversations about these things, but if you arrive to them with "this is unacceptable" as a starting point, you confirm that you're really not interested in having a conversation to start with. If this is your game, don't be surprised when you're promptly told where to go.

pookie101 said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
pookie101 said:
lets see the only female character you have, who dresses like a stripper, rolls around like a stripper, where the camera focuses on her ass and breasts, who says nothing all because of "breathing through her skin".. which makes no sense anyway because she has body paint and clothing options later

it feels tacky to be honest and goes so far beyond fan service it plows straight on into wank service.

why are people getting upset at it? well if she wasnt treated as some twisted males ideal of the perfect female who doesnt say anything and just looks and acts like a whore, she would be one of the most interesting characters seen this year.

the industry has reached the point of this sort of BS is crossing into completely unacceptable territory, konami and kojima still act like the only people who play games are 12 yo males.

plus the fact some people cant even see who it might be offensive to others is part of the issue
Did you consider that people might take offense to your post? I mean... Whilst you were caught up in your righteous indignation, did you consider what you were actually saying about those who might take a different view to you?

Food for thought. If being offensive is always bad, then shame on you. If you don't feel bad, then maybe you shouldn't get on your high-horse so easily about other people not being completely sensitive to the offense of others either. Is it different when it's you doing it?

If it's "unacceptable" for you, then don't play it. Or are we talking broadly here? Is this "unacceptable" for anyone to consume? You could surely imagine how people might not take kindly to that?
for starters im not stopping anyone from playing it, enjoying kokimas immature fan service, cos playing it, hell dress up in the bed room like it for all i care

i also totally accept others have a different view to me, i also dont actually care about someones opinion if they defend this pandering to a wank job. so if what i say offends them .. well enjoy being offended
You're not stopping anyone playing it, correct. You can't. It's not your place. Your language suggests that you are offended and would prohibit it if you could(surely you can see that), as well as being fairly insulting about those who enjoy it... Hence reaction.

Enjoy your impotent offense.
 

Dizchu

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People. The problem isn't that Kojima has disrespected women with Quiet's design, the problem is that he disrespected the audience.

You know what? Quiet's costume is stupid. But I also find some appeal in her character design, it's campy and ridiculous and fits in with the MGS universe in that regard. MGS5 is a game where you attach balloons to unconscious people and watch them fly into space. It's a completely ridiculous game, why not fucking run with it instead of using this absolutely contrived reason for why she's dressed like that?

The shoehorning in of drama to "justify" fanservice is pathetic. Fanservice characters are completely fine, just don't pretend they're something they're not. There are ways to "justify" skimpy or skin-tight outfits. Mostly there's the appeal to ridiculousness. If your game is completely silly and defies logic, go ahead, throw in chainmail bikinis. That might be fun. Bayonetta flaunts her body because it is her choice, it is who she is. Quiet is not the same.

You know what? I'm gonna use the "O" word. Quiet is a genuinely objectified character. The "tragedy" of her situation makes her submissive to the player ogling her. It's like justifying the ogling of naked refugees or escaped sex workers because "they lost their clothes". That doesn't make your game tragic, it makes it extremely fucking creepy.

Call me an "SJW" all you want, I often defend sexualised female characters in games. I am actually quite fond of many of them. But this isn't another instance of whiny feminists with nothing better to do picking on some game designers' character. Quiet is an extremely poorly realised character and the result of someone thinking with their dick and justifying it at the last minute.

If you want a sexy female character in your game that wears skimpy outfits, just do it. Don't pull a silly excuse out of your ass. It's essentially the same as being caught watching porn and saying "UHH, OOPS, I ACCIDENTALLY CLICKED THE WRONG LINK TO GET HERE".

If a company justified having a 30FPS cap in their game because it's "cinematic" rather than a limitation they can't overcome, everyone loses their minds. Hideo Kojima does the same thing and everyone's defending him.

Jake Martinez said:
Imagine you wanted to watch a movie about giant Robots fighting Giant monsters. Then afterwards, someone comes along and removes all the fighting. They now hug each other and sing.

Your fun has been effectively ruined, right?
Imagine you wanted to watch a movie about giant robots fighting giant monsters, and it had a completely pretentious plot that sucked the fun out of it because "giant robots fighting giant monsters isn't taken seriously". The pilot of one of the giant robots has a tragic backstory that's played 100% straight and tonally conflicts with the absurdity of the action. While the film is all about campy fun, the director INSISTS that it is "super serious" and "anyone that makes fun of it will regret it when the super tragic twist is dropped". Only, the "super tragic twist" is complete nonsense.

That's MGS5. If anyone's "spoiling the fun", it's Hideo Kojima.