Why are there almost no bad ass women in Shounen?

Dansen

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EbonBehelit said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
There's a bit of stress in Japan at the moment because of a perceived issue with homosexuality and transgenderism among young men, which is causing panic about their low birth rates. So any strong female characters in a series for boys adolescent to teen and young adult are gonna get shouted at by the Japanese MRA types.
...and then there's One Piece - the biggest manga ever in Japan - where there's an entire nation of transvestites & transgender people that's ruled by a literal gender-bender.

On-topic though, it's not actually super rare to see badass women in Shounen: it's rare to have them be badass without being super sexualised as well. I mean, even Fairy tail's resident female badass Erza turns fan-servicey when she powers up.
I've come to realize that One Piece is actually the biggest offender. How many powerful women exist in that world. Big Ma, a disgusting abomination, Boa Hancock, a character who exist only for comedy and maybe that one female Admiral, who has yet to do anything. Big Ma is the only one that seems like any sort of threat in a fight. For a show that tends to have diverse zany fighters, there is a lack of women. Im not counting the goons in this either, because they just exist to get beaten up.

Im mostly annoyed at how Robin was neutered by power creep. In Alabasta she is presented as a huge threat since she can break peoples necks from across a room and her power has a bunch of applications. Then immediately after she become a mid to low tier fighter in the straw hat crew. Nothing can get in the way of the big three(Luffy, Zoro, Sanji) when it comes to fights.

Lets keep this in the rem of Shounen guys. Pretty sure stuff like Hellsing is seinin, a world of diffrence because at least characters tend to actually die in that one, Im looking at you Kakashi!
Johnisback said:
Dansen said:
snip - Sui-Feng(Bleach) - snip
So you mentioned Soi Fon from Bleach but not the more powerful, more prevalent woman who trained her, Yoruichi?
In fact Bleach is littered with powerful female fighters in both protagonist and antagonist roles, comes with the territory of being wonderfully camp.
Never got to see her fight because I dropped Bleach after Goetti 13 arc. seriously fuck the Bountou filler
 

Dansen

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Xiado said:
Alright, I'll bite on your stupidity.

Shounen are targeted towards young boys. Shounen as a descriptor refers to the demographic, not a genre. Little kids aren't interested in the other gender, they want a power fantasy. You want fleshed out, powerful female characters? Read stuff written for young girls if you absolutely have to consume media that's aimed at children.
Umad bro?

Just talking cause Im bored no need to get so pissy.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Dansen said:
Xiado said:
Alright, I'll bite on your stupidity.

Shounen are targeted towards young boys. Shounen as a descriptor refers to the demographic, not a genre. Little kids aren't interested in the other gender, they want a power fantasy. You want fleshed out, powerful female characters? Read stuff written for young girls if you absolutely have to consume media that's aimed at children.
Umad bro?

Just talking cause Im bored no need to get so pissy.
Calling something or someone stupid for having a real question is why society tends to generally be so stupid.

God, I see a looming flame war we could all do better off without by saying that this is a valid question on both sides.

But it seems no one wants to be reasonable about anything. Why is it always one extreme or the other?
 

DrOswald

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
DrOswald said:
I just think you are plain wrong.

I don't really watch shounen and I don't care about shounen, but even what little I know about shounen I know that there are plenty of bad ass women all over the place. Usually the main character is a dude, but beyond that there are usually plenty of bad ass female fighters around. I mean, I watched only parts of Bleach and I am pretty sure there are dozens of bad ass women in there. I don't even know most of their names, but I can picture at least 10 of them. Among the soul society alone there is cat lady, cat lady's pupil, that zombie girl, the lady with the braid, the lady that always is showing off her massive cleavage, the lady with only 1 arm that has a giant cannon, rukia, and several others I am not going to bother mentioning. Then there are I think 3 women among the people that teach Ichigo to use his mask, among the hueco mundo there is that goth girl, the little girl that turns back and forth into a busty amazon, that one lady whose shirt covers more of her face than her breasts, and those are just some of the bad ass women I can think of off the top of my head. Seems like a lot of them to me.

Also, I guess FMA counts as shounen? That has plenty of bad ass women. I mean, we got at least the bros mentor lady (btw, doesn't she like have no internal organs or something?) who is consistently portrayed as bad ass, we got lust, we got hawkeye. And probably some more that I don't know.

I mean, there are more bad ass men than women, sure, but that does not mean there are very few bad ass women.
The problem that there is a power creep. If you follow something you'll generally find that main characters who are usually male essentially always reach higher power plateaus than females do. In Shojo the exact opposite is true.

When a female is more powerful it links back to a stereotype in Shonen, and the opposite is true in shojo.

If you look at either side there are far fewer individuals of power of the opposite gender as the target audience, and more often than not they're antagonists.
Yeah, sure, power creep happens but that doesn't make any of these bad ass women not bad asses.

The OP said "It just seems like most female characters are relegated to the side so that they can cheer on the male protagonist." Perhaps true by the end of the series because of power creep on the part of the protagonist, but most of the women in a shounen series start as bad asses and only become more bad ass as the series progresses. Just because the main character increases in bad assitude faster than the other characters does not mean the other characters are any less bad ass.

"If they have any sort of abilities they typically are of a supporting nature, most often represented as being a healer." This is just plain false, as the responses in this thread have demonstrated. Sure, healers are more often female than not. But female characters in Shounen are usually not healers just by the fact that there are so many bad ass females around.

There are just so many of them. Practically every shounen I can think of the entire regular cast of females are bad asses with only one or two exceptions per show. I mean, take bleach. The only regular females who are not a bad asses are the orange hair girl and the little sister. Literally every other female character of significance is a bad ass fighter, even little girls like Yachiru (had to look that name up.) And even orange hair girl is actually a bad ass fighter, just not in comparison to most of the demi-gods of bleach.
 

Reasonable Atheist

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Getting really really tired of the question "why is x media that is created for y demographic so filled with y characters?"
How popular is the WNBA? that is why.
 

Asita

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Areloch said:
I forget the name of the anime off the top of my head, but it's a relatively recent one. The main female lead uses her poisoned blood to create swords out of it to hunt and kill monsters.

Speaking of blood, Blood The Last Vampire had a female lead that hunted vampires better than pretty much everyone else.
...That sounds very similar to Blood+ (the series loosely based on Blood: the Last Vampire), wherein the protagonist's blood was pretty much the only real way to kill the monsters. Major difference being that she didn't create blades of blood, she used a katana that she coated with her blood. *glances at the superpowers wiki* Kyoukai no Kanata/Beyond the Boundary, perhaps?
 

Lightknight

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As a sexually dimorphic species we have hard coded notions that women are weaker than men. In fact, this isn't just a notion but is a gender difference founded in biology thanks to the wonders of natural steroids. So we do tend to have a little more trouble seeing any sort of female character as strong and we aren't inherently wrong for seeing it that way either. Males are often seen as the "fighters' because they are a lot more aggressive by a fair margin.

There's also a social disadvantage to including strong females as a villain. If they're a villain it looks like the male protagonist is beating up on a woman because the hero will inevitably win. Violence against women in general is seen as particularly evil so it is difficult to include them in shows that commonly double as kids shows (like Naruto). It's a convenient double standard to have people complaining about depictions of violence against women while simultaneously demanding they be depicted in more violent situations just like the men.

You have to work really hard to create a strong female character. Game of Thrones did it successfully with Brienne. They did it brilliantly to the point that her beating certain males feels believable and she really does seem to be a badass.

So there's believability, social taboo, and difficulty of depiction that makes them a rarer breed to spot. I don't necessarily blame them but I also don't particularly care what gender is fighting what gender in these cartoons.

Mutant1988 said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Partially because of a huge female empowerment movement that has a loud minority that's agenda is marginalizing men in favor of women.
Man, it must be so rough for you to have your world, that's been giving your gender an advantage throughout all of history, shaken so violently.

Whenever will it stop!
And I'm sure that because men have enjoyed an advantage all throughout history that you have decided to stereotype all males as being advantaged/privileged somehow. It's fun to see stereotyping is still alive and well. What does anyone give a fuck about people who got benefits decades ago when it comes to them personally? That a company you work for wants to look progressive and so they specifically hire women instead of a man who deserved the position more doesn't make the discrimination against that man any more just. That men before him had more opportunity doesn't make him guilty of their sins. It's insanely sexist to determine that men need to be marginalized and stereotyped just because they were born men. It's just another side of the same coin with a pendulum swinging too far past equality.

You shutting someone down for complaining about a movement that marginalizes them won't end up with you being on the right side of history. Only equality will.
 

Areloch

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Asita said:
Areloch said:
I forget the name of the anime off the top of my head, but it's a relatively recent one. The main female lead uses her poisoned blood to create swords out of it to hunt and kill monsters.

Speaking of blood, Blood The Last Vampire had a female lead that hunted vampires better than pretty much everyone else.
...That sounds very similar to Blood+ (the series loosely based on Blood: the Last Vampire), wherein the protagonist's blood was pretty much the only real way to kill the monsters. Major difference being that she didn't create blades of blood, she used a katana that she coated with her blood. *glances at the superpowers wiki* Kyoukai no Kanata/Beyond the Boundary, perhaps?
Ah, yes. That was the one. Thank you.

And I'd half-remembered Blood+, but mostly remembered The Last Vampire as I hadn't seen the entirety of Blood+. Another good example.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Lightknight said:
You shutting someone down for complaining about a movement that marginalizes them won't end up with you being on the right side of history. Only equality will.
Thank you for that voice of reason.
 

Erttheking

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Xiado said:
Alright, I'll bite on your stupidity.

Shounen are targeted towards young boys. Shounen as a descriptor refers to the demographic, not a genre. Little kids aren't interested in the other gender, they want a power fantasy. You want fleshed out, powerful female characters? Read stuff written for young girls if you absolutely have to consume media that's aimed at children.
You know, the hostility isn't called for.

And I'm pretty sure people over fourteen watch Shounen. And since when the hell has it being a kid's story ever been an excuse to not try? Disney never took that excuse and look where it got them.
 

Erttheking

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Reasonable Atheist said:
Getting really really tired of the question "why is x media that is created for y demographic so filled with y characters?"
How popular is the WNBA? that is why.
That doesn't answer why a show aimed at young boys is incapable of having well written female characters. I think if Legend of Korra is anything to go by, boys will like anything so long as its entertaining and well written. Really writers just take the lazy way out if they can't write decent female characters.
 

Newway12

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Shonen literally means "boy" in Japanese. That's why their are so few girls in them. Its mostly stories about boys for boys.
 

Newway12

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erttheking said:
Reasonable Atheist said:
Getting really really tired of the question "why is x media that is created for y demographic so filled with y characters?"
How popular is the WNBA? that is why.
That doesn't answer why a show aimed at young boys is incapable of having well written female characters. I think if Legend of Korra is anything to go by, boys will like anything so long as its entertaining and well written. Really writers just take the lazy way out if they can't write decent female characters.
Legend of Korra wasn't hitting its primary demographic, that's why it was taken off the air for gaps of time, and Nick was always messing with the schedule.
 

soren7550

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It's not so much that there's almost no badass women in shounen, it's that they're pushed to the side and almost never come up.

Take Naruto for example. There's Anko, Konan, Mei Terunmi, Temari, Tsunade, and Sakura. And how does the series use them?

Anko - Shows up during the Chunin arc, nearly takes down the big bad Orochimaru by herself, is stated to be the only survivor of his initial cursed seal experiments and is able to suppress its corrupting nature (which no one else seemed to be able to do), and is among the Hokage's most trusted people. Doesn't show up again for several hundred or so chapters, just for her to briefly fight the big bad, get captured, and remain unconscious for the rest of the series (except for the epilogue, where she's shown to have gotten fat).

Konan - The right hand of the Akatsuki, and one of its founders, later becomes the leader of her nation. Does almost nothing up until her battle with Tobi, where she damn near almost kills him, and only fails due to him pulling a new power from his butthole. Dies.

Mei - Is the Hokage of her nation, and pretty much rebuilds the whole nation over after her predecessor dies (his reign being a brutal and dividing one), and possesses two kekkei genkai. Fights Saskue single handed, and almost beats him, but loses due to having to reign in her power because it could kill everyone else, and because of the Zestu spores draining her of her chakra. Briefly fights Madara but loses quickly because 'lol, he so godly'. Does much of nothing for the rest of the series, becomes fat in the epilogue.

Temari - Part of the Sand Siblings trio, who are all badass and kinda scary. Has two notable fights early on, and doesn't do too much after. Is shown to participate in other battles, but isn't given much attention. Shown in the epilogue to have gotten married and have a kid.

Tsunade - Part of a legendary trio renowned for their strength, becomes the leader of her nation, is shown to be able to knock the shit outta most everyone, and often brings back people from near death (she's a pioneer of medical ninjustu). Shows up and fights every now and again, fights a few big bads, survives being bisected. Is the most often shown & used badass woman. Give up her position because reasons.

Sakura - Tsunade's apprentice, and has been said to be on par with her. Even though she's one of the main characters, she doesn't do too much except pine after Sasuke, who largely showed no interest in her, and outright tries to kill her a few times. She does take out a big bad though. Is shown in the epilogue to be a housewife and bore Sasuke's child.

Soo, yeah.
 

Mutant1988

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Lightknight said:
And I'm sure that because men have enjoyed an advantage all throughout history that you have decided to stereotype all males as being advantaged/privileged somehow. It's fun to see stereotyping is still alive and well. What does anyone give a fuck about people who got benefits decades ago when it comes to them personally? That a company you work for wants to look progressive and so they specifically hire women instead of a man who deserved the position more doesn't make the discrimination against that man any more just. That men before him had more opportunity doesn't make him guilty of their sins. It's insanely sexist to determine that men need to be marginalized and stereotyped just because they were born men. It's just another side of the same coin with a pendulum swinging too far past equality.

You shutting someone down for complaining about a movement that marginalizes them won't end up with you being on the right side of history. Only equality will.
And equality is changing nothing at all?

There is a problem getting women into the video game industry (And other industries), because of poor attitudes that think that any attempt to help them get into the business without being marginalized, ignored or abused is somehow going to make themselves lose something.

Tell me, do you respond to all issues by replying "But what about me?". Because you sure as hell do when it's about making things better for women.

I'm also curious to know if you think companies are run by imbeciles? Because they would have to be if they pass over a more competent employee because he has a dick. Women? They get passed over regardless. Or they get harassed for being chosen over someone else regardless, because they have the audacity not to have a dick. It's always politics when it's women.

So you know, maybe efforts to normalize the ratio could have a good effect in the long run? Just a thought.

Who do you think created and enforce gender roles anyway? Women? When men almost exclusively has been in positions of power throughout nearly all of history? Did they use magic?

But I digress, this topic isn't about gender roles.

It's about insulting Japanese boys.
 

sageoftruth

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WouldYouKindly said:
Because it's aimed at boys? The men in shoujo are all secondary to the girls in badassery because the demographic is different. If you want a more even representation watch seinen or josei.

Also, does Fate stay night and the other assorted anime count as shounen? For a large part of the series Rin is more useful in a fight than our protagonist and Saber is more badassery than them all.
Then again, does shoujo ever really have badasses in it? I didn't think Japan considered the shoujo market to be one that would want badasses.
 

Lightknight

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Mutant1988 said:
And equality is changing nothing at all?
If things are equal, then yes, it means changing nothing at all. If things are unequal, then things need to be achieved but not through inequality. The playing field must be made fair rather than being stilted to the other side just because.

There is a problem getting women into the video game industry (And other industries), because of poor attitudes that think that any attempt to help them get into the business without being marginalized, ignored or abused is somehow going to make themselves lose something.
There's a difference between giving someone fair access to the industry and giving them elevated access.

Look, there are a lot of very talented women already in gaming and already writing. Women clearly have access to the industry. But just because it isn't 50/50 male/women doesn't make it unequal or unfair. There are a ton of industries where there is a gender disparity because, guess what, men and women are different. The important thing is to make sure that the disparity isn't there due to unfair hiring practices or some kind of obstacles that are put in one group's way. It isn't important to try to force it to be equal when there aren't necessarily an equal number of women who want to do the same job.

Tell me, do you respond to all issues by replying "But what about me?". Because you sure as hell do when it's about making things better for women.
There you go again. Trying to shut someone down for merely discussing the existence of being marginalized. This should not make you feel proud. Equality is everyone's cause and you're doing no one justice by advocating against fairness in the name of fairness. That's just textbook irony on your part. You need to instead rally against people who are actually out to maintain true inequality.

I'm also curious to know if you think companies are run by imbeciles? Because they would have to be if they pass over a more competent employee because he has a dick. Women? They get passed over regardless. Or they get harassed for being chosen over someone else regardless, because they have the audacity not to have a dick. It's always politics when it's women.
If a female is truly the best candidate for a job and is passed over then that is a significant loss for a company. Especially at the higher echelons.

But I'm not sure what your point is. I believe that if anyone is passed over for their job due to their gender or any attribute we deem as protected that it was unethical for the hiring agent to do so. Shouldn't that be what you're aiming for? That the most qualified candidate always gets chosen regardless of whether or not they have a dick? That's fair, that's equal opportunity. That the best of the best is hired. Not that someone demands certain numbers be met which leads to all those attributes being considered all over again. So why must I be positioned against you for wanting things to remain equal? Why should someone complaining about inequality be diminished by you? The pendulum often swings too far in the other direction before eventually resting in the middle. You should stop pushing it so hard the other way and instead be a force of gravity for the center. For equality and not for inequality because you think some group deserves it for something they may personally have never done.

So I repeat, inequality cannot be stamped out with more inequality. This should not be a controversial notion that each person deserves a fair shot because it's not their fault what they're born as. Yet people demand ratios have to be this or that and so people's natural qualities come into play far more than they should.

So you know, maybe efforts to normalize the ratio could have a good effect in the long run? Just a thought.
What is normalization though? Shouldn't it just be that the number of hires are proportionate to the number of people applying for the job? For example, if a company gets 80% male applicants and 20% female applicants then shouldn't that ratio be the general goal rather than a contrived 50/50 that would actually be a heavily sexist ratio? The problem with most of the people advocating for normalization is that they don't understand what normal is. They assume that the labor pool for every job is 50/50 and that women are just getting turned away. In some cases that is true but in many cases there is a huge difference in the labor pool.

So do you want equality or do you want contrived equality where you force everything into some box that you imagine to be ideal?

Who do you think created and enforce gender roles anyway? Women? When men almost exclusively has been in positions of power throughout nearly all of history? Did they use magic?
Society has established most gender roles. It is reinforced by both men and women. Biology has also played a role in it. Men aren't deemed as the physically stronger gender because men won the battle of Carthage and declared society would always view them as such. They are deemed as such because they have a natural advantage in that area thanks to large amounts of a natural steroid. But women have played just as great of a role in gendered stereotyping, being just as guilty of condemning women who danced to the beat of a different drum.

You are sadly mistaken, and sexist, if you want to shift all of humanity's blame onto one sex. Sorry, this nonsense was a group effort.

Regardless, I'm not sure why you feel like the sins of our ancestors have anything to do with us. Maybe someone had a great grand father that fucked a goat. I'm not going to hold that against them (the great grand child) or prevent them from watching over my goats if I had any. That crime what the great grandfather's and his alone (of course, hypothetical). I certainly wouldn't try to marginalize the individual or take away their rights to give someone else and advantage for something their great grandfather did either.

It's about insulting Japanese boys.
I'm pretty sure it's someone asking why a type of show named "boy" is mostly about boys (if the person above was correct, which google translate seems to confirm). So it seems like kind of a no-brainer conversation.