Why Captain America must be evil, and black, and gay, and muslim and...etc. etc. etc.

Hero in a half shell

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There is always outrage in a fandom when the authors change a key part of their story, whether for good reasons or bad reasons.
We've seen this with the changes to superhero characters in recent comics and movies, but change is present in pretty much every franchise.

We have seen new characters appear out of nowhere to liven up long running franchises (like Scrappy Doo in the Scooby Doo cartoons) We've seen long running characters axed and killed off to freshen them up (like Damian Wayne being killed in Batman comics, or Cortana in Halo 4)

Entire franchises have seen massive tonal shifts (compare Adam West's Batman to Ben Afflecks) or have been morphed beyond recognition (Mario games - Just any of them!)

The question is, why are the writers making these changes, and the answer is simple - A story that is told once doesn't really need to be told again. James Bond dresses suave, wins the girl and stops the bad guy, but there are only so many different ways you can play around with that narrow formula until the audience get restless. The writers must use bigger stunts, better villains, crazier gadgets, and hotter women each time, and there's only a certain number of times this can be done until the whole thing jumps the shark and becomes a parody of itself (resulting in the disastrous Die another Day - Complete with invisible car, Ice castle, Madonna sword fighting, satellite lasers, iceberg parasailing and double entendres about owls.)

The only other way they can keep things fresh is to mess with the formula, which means subverting the character. So James Bond gets changed. Daniel Craig comes in, he's grittier, more brutish, they remove the gadgets and sci-fi stuff and make him troubled and broody, and people want to go see the new iteration, because it's a side of the character they haven't experienced before.

It's the same with comic book characters, some of the best DC stories are reportedly the 'elseworlds' stories, where the writers mess with the standard formula, and say "What if... Superman landed in Soviet Russia as a baby?", "What if... The Flash went back in time and mucked everything up?", etc.
When we have seen a particular character play through a particular story enough times, it gets boring. There is only so many times people will buy a comic of Captain America punching Hitler in the face. Eventually the writers are going to have to take him in a new direction, and the clearest way of doing that is to subvert the main quality of the character and ask "What if Captain America were to HELP Hitler, not fight him?"
These stories if done right can not only serve to keep a character fresh, but to tell us other important things about them - How much of their personality is informed by circumstance, and how much is natural to them?

For this reason we shouldn't be surprised when a character that has been in print for 50+ years gets a storyline subverting their beliefs, or changing their personality or circumstances, it is done to keep them fresh, because the stories that have established their character in our minds have already happened, we already own them and don't need to be told them again. The characters need new challenges, new opportunities to grow and continue to reach out to the audience, and one of those ways to achieve this is to change their circumstances and see how that affects their story.

It's kind of like the Joker says, you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. In the search for new storylines a long running franchise will try every storyline available, so the character will eventually become everything they are opposed to, and spring back and forward and back and forward as the franchise continues. Captain America is a hero, he's a villain, he's a patriot, a traitor, he's been killed off, resurrected, he's now black, eventually he'll be Asian, Latino, Native American, white again etc. He'll be a woman, he'll become everything and anything to keep the franchise fresh, whether it makes sense or not, and he'll fight bigger and bigger villains until they get ludicrously large, then he'll go back to small, more intimate threats, because the formula must keep changing.

It's the same for every franchise, and we'll keep getting angry at the changes, but we shouldn't worry really, because the franchise will always need to change to stay fresh, and it will eventually change back in a way that really honours and does justice to our favourite characters.

So yeah. I'm probably going to regret posting this, but any thoughts?
 

DefunctTheory

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So yeah. I'm probably going to regret posting this, but any thoughts?
I think you need to rewatch the Batman films so you can properly attribute that 'Joker' quote.

Besides that, that sure is a long post just to say 'After 50 years, you gotta shake it up somehow.'
 
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Then Captain America should have died a hero. This is why I support Legacy Characters. I'd much rather Captain Falcon take over as the permanent Captain America than to have him go this, down right insulting, route. IF they've told all the stories they can tell with a particular character, and want to switch it up, then kill the character. Considering all of the race politics currently going on, Captain Falcon would do fine in the drivers seat.

If they grow tired of Parker's new direction I'd rather the return of the Superior Spider-Man, or for Ultimate Spider-Man to take over, than for Parker to return to the Daily Bugle. If they're tired of Thor Odinson, then they should make him Ruler of Asguard already, so that we can potentially get his awesome daughter from the Young Avengers animated film. Loki has had wonderful character progression, and I'd rather they kill him off than make him the God of Evil again.

So on and so forth. The reason I like elseworld stories is because I know they do not in any way affect the characters I know in love. They're cute "What if"s. What if Superman were raised in Russia? Awesome, as long as the Superman I know and love still stands for Truth and Justice and doesn't suddenly become a communist. What if Captain America were a Hydra Agent all along? Fine, as long as 616 Cap still symbolizes what America should be and doesn't suddenly become a Nazi. Elseworld stories are fine as elseworld stories.

I'm fine with changes that don't spit in the face of everything a character once stood for and, frankly, I'm sick and tired of things returning to the status quo. Steve Rogers is a frail old man now? Fine. Stick to it dammit! Thor is dead and Jane is the new thor for as long as her cancer doesn't kill her? Fine, but Odinson better not come back unless he's sitting in that thrown, dammit! Oh, no! Damian Wayne is dead! Don't you dare bring him back, damn you! Yay Spider-Man got married! I think you know where this one's going.

This type of story only exists for the shock value. It'll be retconned and it's like it never happened. Which makes me wonder why they didn't just make it an elseworld story to begin with. Then they wouldn't have to retcon anything.

Anyway, funny picture time.


 

Silvanus

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There's only one reason Captain America must be gay (or at least bi), and that's because if he weren't, then most of the things he does in my imagination wouldn't make much sense.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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I dunno. I think Captain America works well as a stereotypical handsome straight white male hero who believes in "freedom, justice and the American way". The quintessential heroic hero whose sole purpose is to save people, no matter what.

But then again, I really like the knight-in-shining-armor archetype, and Captain America is just that from WW2.
 

mduncan50

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Nobody actually believes this is going to stay as canon do they? I give it a year, maybe two tops, and then we find out he was just brainwashed to THINK he was Hydra all along, or he's a clone of Cap, or an alien imposter, or he's tricking Hydra, or whatever. It's the same old Death of Superman bs, trying to boost sales with a dumb gimmick that everyone knows is only temporary.
 

Scarim Coral

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No TL:DR version?

Either way I can guess that the writers think that making a big twist to the superhero is a good idea in terms of making people want to buy the comic like did with the whole Superior Spiderman thing.
 

Something Amyss

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Silvanus said:
There's only one reason Captain America must be gay (or at least bi), and that's because if he weren't, then most of the things he does in my imagination wouldn't make much sense.
I don't know, maybe he's taking one for his country?

Captain Marvelous said:
This type of story only exists for the shock value. It'll be retconned and it's like it never happened. Which makes me wonder why they didn't just make it an elseworld story to begin with. Then they wouldn't have to retcon anything.
Continuity shifts are as old as Captain America. Hell, this is the guy they retconned to be frozen in a block of ice while some yahoo was out punching commies in his name.

undeadsuitor said:
tl;dr comic book writers like writing click-bait
I think this one's more fanservice. People have been complaining so long and so loudly about diversity in comics, and now there's finally an explicit safe space for them.
 

Something Amyss

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undeadsuitor said:
the idea of changing characters for diversity is so unused and minimal (really, only 3 characters have ever been touched, and they were all legacy characters) that they dont hold a candle to what the comic industry has been doing since they put super man being a dick on the cover of books to sell units
And yet, one's a novelty while the other causes ALL of the tantrums.
 

Saelune

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Instead of retconning characters, just progress them. I don't like the status quo. Shows like Adventure Time and Steven Universe are great cause they change. Finn grows older, Peridot becomes an ally.

As for comics, Id love if Spider-Man also grew up. Id be fine if he was a middle-aged (or older) man, married to Mary Jane, maybe with a kid who inherits his abilities, and becomes the new Spider-Man.

Batman Beyond was a great show for this very reason. It was cool to see Bruce old, Terry taking over, mentored by Bruce, and dealing with Gotham's future. Some old faces pop up, but they are dealt with well, and ended, such as Mr.Freeze, Ra's al-Ghul and his daughter, and the Joker.

Don't need to make it that Bruce was gay (cause Catwoman and Talia would disagree), just progress his story.
 

Kameburger

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Look. Either this will be a good story, or it won't be. Marvel isn't about to up end it's entire universes history to make one of it's most iconic heroes into a BS villain. Nothing unpopular is permanent in the comic book world. That is something I've grown quite aware of over the years and with these kinds of things. Unless the book is so unpopular it's not worth rewriting, then something will swing back. Cap working for Hydra? Weird but it doesn't sound like something that's gonna stick around for a while. Cause it completely undermines all the characterization they've done until now. There was one meme I saw point out that it's like coming out and saying that Batman killed his own parents. So let's see where they're going with this. Maybe it'll be good. Nothing to get upset over.
 

Wrex Brogan

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...Ehhh. There's better ways to shake things up. Fuck, do a storyline about Captain America being turned into a fucking Golden Retriever, not some shitty 'Maximum EDGY' Hydra bullshit that even the 90s anti-heroes would go 'what the fuck' at. It just doesn't work, comes off incredibly cheap, alienates a whole mess of fans and is just going to result in some heavy-duty backpedaling/asspulling on behalf of the writers once enough people say 'fuck this noise'.

As a side note... what the fuck is with the Hydra love right now? There's so much fucking merch for it. It's fucking Hydra. They're literally nazis. It's... actually really disturbing to see all the various gear and hashtags for it. Mainly because of the whole 'they're literally the fictional equivalent of actual nazis and espouse many of the same beliefs and ideals' thing. I get liking the villain and all, but jesus.

Saelune said:
As for comics, Id love if Spider-Man also grew up. Id be fine if he was a middle-aged (or older) man, married to Mary Jane, maybe with a kid who inherits his abilities, and becomes the new Spider-Man.
...look, we did the old Spiderman thing and the married to Mary Jane thing, and we got 'killed Mary Jane with radioactive semen' and 'Made a wish to Satan for a marriage retcon' in return.

Spiderman doesn't get to age, they fucked it up on the first pass I don't trust 'em to do it right the second time.
 

Hawki

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Hero in a half shell said:
We have seen new characters appear out of nowhere to liven up long running franchises (like Scrappy Doo in the Scooby Doo cartoons) We've seen long running characters axed and killed off to freshen them up (like Damian Wayne being killed in Batman comics, or Cortana in Halo 4)
I'm not sure about Cortana in that case, and I'm skeptical as to whether 343 planned her resurrection during Halo 4 itself, or whether that came afterwards. I don't actually mind her leading the Created, because the Created as a concept are interesting, and I can buy her transformation (entering Genesis, gaining meta-stability through the "waters of life," cue reference to the Tree of Knowledge and original sin, etc.), but having her story end at Halo 4 would have been fine as well.

Hero in a half shell said:
Entire franchises have seen massive tonal shifts (compare Adam West's Batman to Ben Afflecks) or have been morphed beyond recognition (Mario games - Just any of them!)
Huh? How has Mario changed? Mario's perhaps one of the most stable videogame mascots there is. Compare him to what happened to, say, Crash, or Spyro, or even Sonic. Not saying these changes are bad (I think character-wise, Sonic has retained his character, and The Legend of Spyro was a nice take on the character), but I can't think of any change that Mario's undergone.

Hero in a half shell said:
James Bond dresses suave, wins the girl and stops the bad guy, but there are only so many different ways you can play around with that narrow formula until the audience get restless. The writers must use bigger stunts, better villains, crazier gadgets, and hotter women each time, and there's only a certain number of times this can be done until the whole thing jumps the shark and becomes a parody of itself (resulting in the disastrous Die another Day - Complete with invisible car, Ice castle, Madonna sword fighting, satellite lasers, iceberg parasailing and double entendres about owls.)

The only other way they can keep things fresh is to mess with the formula, which means subverting the character. So James Bond gets changed. Daniel Craig comes in, he's grittier, more brutish, they remove the gadgets and sci-fi stuff and make him troubled and broody, and people want to go see the new iteration, because it's a side of the character they haven't experienced before.
As much as I love the Craig films and dislike Die Another Day, Craig isn't as revolutionary as you might claim. We had a "dark and gritty" Bond with Dalton, and Bronsan, to a lesser extent (DAD aside). He's also proprotedly closer to the novel version of Bond. The main distinction with Craig is that film-wise, everything from Doctor No to DAD is in one continuity, and Casino Royale another one begins.

Moving onto the subject, I don't think constant reboots are a necessity, but more an excuse to either generate sales or carry out lazy writing. Doctor Who has been going on since the 60s, and while far from perfect in terms of continuity, it's at least never retconned/rebooted itself. Or another comic series I followed back in the day, the Archie Sonic comics have been going on for 24 years, and do you know how many reboots it's had? One, and that was due to the legal spat with Ken Penders and possibly influence from Sega rather than being something the staff wanted to do. Existing in a world where Captain America changing colours is a thing...again...and from what I understand, DC is retconning its own retcon, saying that's a natural state of affairs seems to suggest either low standards or cognitive dissonance on some writing level.
 

Callate

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I haven't closely followed the whole "Captain America turns out to be Hydra" thing. On the face of it, it sounds kind of dumb. Reading the editor responsible saying this was planned out all the way back in 2014 just kind of makes me want to facepalm.

Don't worry, guys- it will all be undone in the next retcon! (Double facepalm.) ("It will make readers wonder how the heck we?ll get out of this"? No, Brevoort, it doesn't- because too often the way comics "get out of this" is for a different writer to take over and either wiggle out of it with all the grace of a greased orangutan, or just move on and pretend it didn't happen.)

I tend to feel that good comic character evolution of long-standing characters comes from examining what the baseline characteristics of that character mean when they're dropped into the modern milieu, not just casting those characteristics aside all together. If you want Batman to be a master thief, or Superman to be a fascist dictator, or Professor X to be for mutant supremacy and Magneto to try to save humanity, you can certainly write a side-story or one-shot to explore those themes. But you don't make it part of the main continuity and pretend that a year and a half of maybe-writing towards a particular happening is enough to completely overturn the basis of a character that's been around for more than seventy-five years.

Well, check that. Never say never; maybe they have something absolutely brilliant planned, and this will be the storyline of the century, the shake-up that genuinely alters the status quo forever and makes us wonder how we could have ever accepted the sunny storylines of the past instead of the deep, gritty ones this new development brings into being. I try not to say you simply can't do something; some things you can, especially if they're done really, really well.

But for the moment, color me incredibly skeptical that this isn't [a/one more] crappy gimmick we'll be backpedaling from within twelve months.
 

Queen Michael

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I'm fine with shaking things up. But I don't want them shaken up so much that they get broken.
 

Wolf Hagen

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Well, thats how the world has always been. Just look on how much any character changed.

Most of the nowadays well know comic book protagonists, have been around since the baby boomers where Kids (and those guys are becoming the "get of my lawn" generation).

So for sure it twists and turns. Or at least has to get a spray on tan, to get a new look, before they retcon it (we are talking about Superhero Comics, a genre where Status Quo is GOD [Graphical Novels like Watchmen or the Kingsman not includet]).

Thats why they just keep twisting an turning it forever and ever. Heck, many people even say, that Batmans villains are the best about the series, because batman is ALWAYS the same backstory: Shot Parents, Billionaire (or back then Millionaire) heir, Some Teenkiddo who gets to be the sidekick sometimes Blahblahblah...

His Villains though where the ones that shook it up, since the writers never where pinned down to that weirdass backstore like for Battybruce.

In Summary: don't worry about weird superhero Sidelines, because they will always pull the "Dimension XYZ", mindcontrol, bodyswitchermutant or whatevs like so many rabbits out of their hat, that in the longrun it becomes a sidenote like that one time where Thor was a girl, Superman was Russian, fat or something.
 

elvor0

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inu-kun said:
Bond is an iffy example, I think the Daniel Craig tried too much to distance itself from what it was and became too much like a Bourne film.
To be fair, the actual Bond novels are a lot more like Bourne. The problem is the Bourne movies came along and did it first in the film medium, or at least popularized that style of spy movies in the current age, and then when the Bond movies decided to go back to their roots, they looked like a pretender despite their source material being older than Bourne.

It's this weird juxtaposition where the Craig Bond movies are both derivative /and/ adaptations of the originator.