Why Did No One Pick Up The Wonder Woman Series?
- Thread starter Elizabeth Grunewald
- Start date
Ehh... Honestly wonder woman could possibly work, but now is really not the right time for it.
First and foremost, what needs to happen is give that chiq some pants or something for crying out loud. Visually I thought the new comic incarnation of her costume was actually fairly good.
Secondly, perhaps you need to focus on raising kids on the notion first. Run a well written, non sexist but not so offensively feminist animated series of WW for a couple years, then wait for the generation of kids who watched it growing up start to come of age. Honestly that can do wonders. I mean as bad as the transformers films have been, you have to realize that financially, they have been successful. Having that sort of fan base can help offset a lot of the things about a franchise that can be very offputting.
While doing this, what really needs to happen is you need to focus and develop the char, and take the focus away from the feminist notions associated with the series, and just make her a superhero. Get over the notion "a woman can do anything a man can do and more" and I dunno, craft some charismatic and deep adversaries for her to combat.
A wise woman once wrote, "Women will never be equal as long as we continue to find pride in Being the first woman to do this or that and start finding pride when we are simply the first. As long as the feminist stigma is attached, the general population as a whole is never likely to take her seriously.
The problem is that feminism is almost an archaic and out of date concept in a day and age where women are accessible to more and equal opportunity on a level never before seen in history, Taking such opportunity and being very successful with it. Honestly we are starting to realize now that we live in a feminist society built on a foundation of feminine values, So much so that there is a slowly emerging backlash from it. So in a day and age when females are not under appreciated, not undervalued, not oppressed and not incapable, its really hard to push a hero on the public that embodies values of fighting against such injustice.
First and foremost, what needs to happen is give that chiq some pants or something for crying out loud. Visually I thought the new comic incarnation of her costume was actually fairly good.
Secondly, perhaps you need to focus on raising kids on the notion first. Run a well written, non sexist but not so offensively feminist animated series of WW for a couple years, then wait for the generation of kids who watched it growing up start to come of age. Honestly that can do wonders. I mean as bad as the transformers films have been, you have to realize that financially, they have been successful. Having that sort of fan base can help offset a lot of the things about a franchise that can be very offputting.
While doing this, what really needs to happen is you need to focus and develop the char, and take the focus away from the feminist notions associated with the series, and just make her a superhero. Get over the notion "a woman can do anything a man can do and more" and I dunno, craft some charismatic and deep adversaries for her to combat.
A wise woman once wrote, "Women will never be equal as long as we continue to find pride in Being the first woman to do this or that and start finding pride when we are simply the first. As long as the feminist stigma is attached, the general population as a whole is never likely to take her seriously.
The problem is that feminism is almost an archaic and out of date concept in a day and age where women are accessible to more and equal opportunity on a level never before seen in history, Taking such opportunity and being very successful with it. Honestly we are starting to realize now that we live in a feminist society built on a foundation of feminine values, So much so that there is a slowly emerging backlash from it. So in a day and age when females are not under appreciated, not undervalued, not oppressed and not incapable, its really hard to push a hero on the public that embodies values of fighting against such injustice.
Simple really, we've so rarely seen one.Elizabeth Grunewald said:
Think of all the heroines that we've seen in history and what they're known for:
Samantha(Bewitched), Betty/Wilma, Marge, Lois, Oprah - Superintelligent Sexy housewife
Trinny/Susannah, Xena, Supernanny, The Nanny, Ally Mcbeal - Squealing faux lesbians doing a MANS job in a MANS world.
Bella, Scarlett (GI Joe), Baroness(GI Joe) - "I've just been waiting for you"
Buffy, Melody, Josie, Britney - "I'm - like - so gonna kick your ass after school"
Now try and think of one that has sex appeal, skill and can work without the aid of a sidekick.
Really rounded it down, hasn't it? Even in the depths of time, what do we really know about Marie Curie, Joan of Arc, Boudicea, Pochahontas...
DCs "Birds of Prey" was good - although the "all men are my slaves" just gets so overused. Bionic Woman crashed and burned after it was turned "dark".
Perhaps what they really needed was a bit of comedy? Having a female hero that can laugh at herself could be the breakout they need. It's what started Bruce, Peter, Dr. Bruce and Clark off at the start. Just show them being normal.
That's the real problem though. Name a "normal" woman on TV...Kari Bryon was turned from a go-girl into a drool-poster pretty quickly, same with Summer Glau, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Alyson Hannigan. Even Gillian Anderson.
How about hiring a woman based not just on her photogenic skills, giving her a good script and not sticking her in a skintight suit for the first episode. (Yes, Star Trek, I'm looking directly at you.)
Jeri Ryan almost had it as 7 of 9, but then they had to bring in the romance... And that, as any fan of Moonlighting/X-Files etc. will tell you, kills the female stone dead.
It's a lot easier to set something up for cancellation though. Ask Michael Grade about Doctor Who.Slycne said:
That wouldn't work. for a few reasons 1) Thor still has all his powers. 2) WW can't lose her powers EVER. They are bestowed upon her by Athena therefore unless she does something that will piss Athena off greatly she won't lose her powers. Hell she fucking killed a man on live TV and didn't lose her powers in the comics.TsunamiWombat said:
A few problems that could explain the lack of a WonderWoman series of film:
1. The original concept for the character seems kinda daft by todays standards (way too much author appeal, and the myth/history refferences are just lame).
2. A lot of Hollywood writers who work on action films suck at writing female characters.
3. Hollywood is still stuck in a "play it safe" mode at the moment, and with how bad the Catwoman film was, they might not want to take the risk.
4. She lacks iconic villans in comparison to some other heros. How many WW bad guys can the average non-fan name (compare that number to the number of Batman or Spiderman villans)?
5. Thinking of a WW villan who would actually work well as the main antagonist in a series or film is even more limited (Ares or Circe are the only ones I can think of).
If Warner Brothers are actually thinking of making a WonderWoman film, then they might want to think about giving her an appearance in something like Smallvil or Batman: the Brave and the Bold first to make folks more aware of the character
1. The original concept for the character seems kinda daft by todays standards (way too much author appeal, and the myth/history refferences are just lame).
2. A lot of Hollywood writers who work on action films suck at writing female characters.
3. Hollywood is still stuck in a "play it safe" mode at the moment, and with how bad the Catwoman film was, they might not want to take the risk.
4. She lacks iconic villans in comparison to some other heros. How many WW bad guys can the average non-fan name (compare that number to the number of Batman or Spiderman villans)?
5. Thinking of a WW villan who would actually work well as the main antagonist in a series or film is even more limited (Ares or Circe are the only ones I can think of).
If Warner Brothers are actually thinking of making a WonderWoman film, then they might want to think about giving her an appearance in something like Smallvil or Batman: the Brave and the Bold first to make folks more aware of the character
As some of the comments here point out (although more by content than intent) WW can not be commercially acceptable because so many people can't get past the whole good looks issue. I'll use Buffy as an example as that show seems to be very polarising.
Whether you like or hate the show there are two facts that can't be denied; one she is attractive to a wide demographic; two she is physically powerful. Joss Whedon wrote the character as a cheerleader who has to come to terms with her new power and responsibility while dealing with going through high school and the problems associated with it. A small group of people got the show for what it tried, and mostly succeeded, to do, but a large number of people could only see 'pin up girl fighting monsters'. Anybody who watched the show with an open mind will tell you that is bullshit and Sarah Michelle Prinze did some of the most emotive and powerful acting I have seen from any actor, male or female.
So if a character that dressed as a real women and acted like a real woman couldn't get the blinkered public behind it, what chance does an iconic and flamboyantly dressed demi god have.
Also, DC have to take some of the blame. She is almost as powerful as Superman and as close to Batman's fighting skill, yet they always have the other two of the 'big three' calling the shots in the Justice League. If DC don't have faith in their character, how can the rest of the world.
Whether you like or hate the show there are two facts that can't be denied; one she is attractive to a wide demographic; two she is physically powerful. Joss Whedon wrote the character as a cheerleader who has to come to terms with her new power and responsibility while dealing with going through high school and the problems associated with it. A small group of people got the show for what it tried, and mostly succeeded, to do, but a large number of people could only see 'pin up girl fighting monsters'. Anybody who watched the show with an open mind will tell you that is bullshit and Sarah Michelle Prinze did some of the most emotive and powerful acting I have seen from any actor, male or female.
So if a character that dressed as a real women and acted like a real woman couldn't get the blinkered public behind it, what chance does an iconic and flamboyantly dressed demi god have.
Also, DC have to take some of the blame. She is almost as powerful as Superman and as close to Batman's fighting skill, yet they always have the other two of the 'big three' calling the shots in the Justice League. If DC don't have faith in their character, how can the rest of the world.
I think you're looking too hard for an answer that isn't there.
First, consider you yourself admitted that each of the networks had a legitimate reason for passing on the show.
Second, consider that DC hasn't been that great thus far in adapting their comics for anything other than animation. Outside of Batman and Superman, Wonder Woman is hardly alone in struggling to get on TV or the big screen. The supposed Flash project(s?) have been stalled for who knows how long, and we have no idea yet how the Green Lantern movie will do. Chances are we might not even have that yet if it weren't for how big his comic line has become in recent years. I think it's less a question of "why can't Wonder Woman get a movie or a TV series?" and more a question of "Why can't DC find a way to make their live-action properties as successful as their animated adaptions?"
Third, consider that yes, Hulk has another adaptation in the network, but so does a character that's previously been restricted to just the comics - Jewel, "AKA Jessica Jones" (Cage), who is guess what? A female superhero. Even if she's not one of Marvel's more well established properties. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, there's been talk of trying to adapt something with Colleen Wing and Misty Knight (Heroes for Hire or Daughters of the Dragon or something like that). Again, not members of their A-list, but still a case of someone trying to do something with their female heroes.
So again, perhaps the question shouldn't be "Why can't Wonder Woman get a movie or a TV series?" I think instead, the question should be "Ok, who else do we have that we could try adapting for TV or Movies?" Perhaps if there would stop being a focus on Wonder Woman, there's be more freedom to consider other female superheroes (or even supervillains) who might be better suited for adaptation to other mediums. Yes, she's one of DC's oldest characters and part of their "Big Three", but she's far from their only option.
Consider, for example, if they looked at Mr. Miracle and Big Barda and tried a series like, say, "Mr. and Mrs. Free". Or if they tried to play off the popularity of Batman and tried a Batgirl series or movie. Or even Fire and Ice.
I'm sure that if you were willing to consider that maybe we should give Wonder Woman a rest for the time being, there'd be plenty of other female superheroes you could think of who just might be a better option to give a movie or TV series to right now.
First, consider you yourself admitted that each of the networks had a legitimate reason for passing on the show.
Second, consider that DC hasn't been that great thus far in adapting their comics for anything other than animation. Outside of Batman and Superman, Wonder Woman is hardly alone in struggling to get on TV or the big screen. The supposed Flash project(s?) have been stalled for who knows how long, and we have no idea yet how the Green Lantern movie will do. Chances are we might not even have that yet if it weren't for how big his comic line has become in recent years. I think it's less a question of "why can't Wonder Woman get a movie or a TV series?" and more a question of "Why can't DC find a way to make their live-action properties as successful as their animated adaptions?"
Third, consider that yes, Hulk has another adaptation in the network, but so does a character that's previously been restricted to just the comics - Jewel, "AKA Jessica Jones" (Cage), who is guess what? A female superhero. Even if she's not one of Marvel's more well established properties. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, there's been talk of trying to adapt something with Colleen Wing and Misty Knight (Heroes for Hire or Daughters of the Dragon or something like that). Again, not members of their A-list, but still a case of someone trying to do something with their female heroes.
So again, perhaps the question shouldn't be "Why can't Wonder Woman get a movie or a TV series?" I think instead, the question should be "Ok, who else do we have that we could try adapting for TV or Movies?" Perhaps if there would stop being a focus on Wonder Woman, there's be more freedom to consider other female superheroes (or even supervillains) who might be better suited for adaptation to other mediums. Yes, she's one of DC's oldest characters and part of their "Big Three", but she's far from their only option.
Consider, for example, if they looked at Mr. Miracle and Big Barda and tried a series like, say, "Mr. and Mrs. Free". Or if they tried to play off the popularity of Batman and tried a Batgirl series or movie. Or even Fire and Ice.
I'm sure that if you were willing to consider that maybe we should give Wonder Woman a rest for the time being, there'd be plenty of other female superheroes you could think of who just might be a better option to give a movie or TV series to right now.
Elizabeth Grunewald said:
ill tell you why. look at the first episode of Stargate SG1. you pretty much get Capt Carter ramming the fact she is a female down your throat. She makes you feel like an ass whole even though you are not. any time you have a new female super hero, they either go for the Succubus or Uber Feminist models. both of which no one cares to watch given a choice.
its because of these models, which are the only ways TV and Movie companies think it would sell, that marketing a medium between the two with a good story would be near impossible to sell. it be almost a new and strange market. My 2 cents anyway
"Wonder Woman isn't a viable franchise if no one knows what to do with her, and no one knows what to do with her because people don't know her well enough. You know how to fix that? Let people get to know her. She's in serious danger of becoming a token, and that's preventable."
That there is what we call a viscous circle that no one attached to Wonder Woman is breaking for one reason or another. People don't know her because no ones written her well or with any consistency for almost seventy years. She's already more popular on mugs and car stickers, she's already a token.
Look at the recent re-visioning by JMS, as bloody awful as it was it was at least a throw it out there attempt to get some life into a concept that's been treading water for decades. But because the outcry was so huge JMS walked. There are many other reasons I'm sure, but how would you feel if everyone and their mum turned around and told you your idea was second only to bum rape in the things you shouldn't do with Wonder Woman?
The 'BIG' three all need a revision, the're stagnant, but because Batman and Superman are frankly handled better and thus sell better, they are left alone to wallow in safe familiar tropes. Wonder Woman's never even had a trope.
Name ONE Wonder Woman story that compares in popularity to The Dark Knight Returns? If your a comic geek you could probably mention a dozen Superman or Batman stories but be hard pressed to think of a Wonder Woman story. She's never had a Year One, a defining creative team, a (really good) brave new take. She's just had endless attempts to pin vomit to a wall.
I'm not saying she's a bad character, I'm saying I don't know what her character is supposed to be. The best I've ever seen her in was the Wonder Woman animated movie from a couple of years ago which painted her as someone with purely female viewpoints but wanting to know more about a world with men in (as opposed to 'man's world'). She even comes across as slightly sexist but only as a result of her limited point of view. We're presented with a character who wants to learn the ways of the world and bring the best of her world to it in an attempt to improve both. In order to do that she has to fight the worst of both and teach what she learns. It's a great take, a good solid character with real motivation and a direction to go in.
Shame it never happened in the comics.
That there is what we call a viscous circle that no one attached to Wonder Woman is breaking for one reason or another. People don't know her because no ones written her well or with any consistency for almost seventy years. She's already more popular on mugs and car stickers, she's already a token.
Look at the recent re-visioning by JMS, as bloody awful as it was it was at least a throw it out there attempt to get some life into a concept that's been treading water for decades. But because the outcry was so huge JMS walked. There are many other reasons I'm sure, but how would you feel if everyone and their mum turned around and told you your idea was second only to bum rape in the things you shouldn't do with Wonder Woman?
The 'BIG' three all need a revision, the're stagnant, but because Batman and Superman are frankly handled better and thus sell better, they are left alone to wallow in safe familiar tropes. Wonder Woman's never even had a trope.
Name ONE Wonder Woman story that compares in popularity to The Dark Knight Returns? If your a comic geek you could probably mention a dozen Superman or Batman stories but be hard pressed to think of a Wonder Woman story. She's never had a Year One, a defining creative team, a (really good) brave new take. She's just had endless attempts to pin vomit to a wall.
I'm not saying she's a bad character, I'm saying I don't know what her character is supposed to be. The best I've ever seen her in was the Wonder Woman animated movie from a couple of years ago which painted her as someone with purely female viewpoints but wanting to know more about a world with men in (as opposed to 'man's world'). She even comes across as slightly sexist but only as a result of her limited point of view. We're presented with a character who wants to learn the ways of the world and bring the best of her world to it in an attempt to improve both. In order to do that she has to fight the worst of both and teach what she learns. It's a great take, a good solid character with real motivation and a direction to go in.
Shame it never happened in the comics.
I would love to see a good adaptation of Wonder Woman, but I was glad the David Kelley script was rejected. Sitting through episodes of Ally McBeal and The Practice was painful enough, I don't need him doing either the bad sex comedy or the heavy-handed moralizing to one of the longest running characters in comics.
DC really are to blame, here, since they haven't really figured out what to do with her since the Len Wein/George Perez run in the '80's (come to think of it, basing a movie off of that might be a good place to start...). They've just bounced creators around and relaunched the book so many times it's become pointless. DC needs discipline!
DC really are to blame, here, since they haven't really figured out what to do with her since the Len Wein/George Perez run in the '80's (come to think of it, basing a movie off of that might be a good place to start...). They've just bounced creators around and relaunched the book so many times it's become pointless. DC needs discipline!
I think you might be on to something. Of course, a new Timm/Dini collaboration on that character would be awesome, and if anyone could modernize even Martson's themes, it'd be them.viranimus said:
Because WW as a character is a horrible, HORRIBLE, failure.
She's a weaker female Supes;
Can throw a punch, but not as well
Can take a punch, but not as well
Can fly but not as fast
Is durable but not against projectiles
And lets not get started on her personality, does she even have a set one? I couldn't tell you.
She's a weaker female Supes;
Can throw a punch, but not as well
Can take a punch, but not as well
Can fly but not as fast
Is durable but not against projectiles
And lets not get started on her personality, does she even have a set one? I couldn't tell you.
Forget superheros, I find the ratio of likable-males to likable-females on TV to be pretty unbalanced already.
This is a little incoherent, but:
I know there's a degree of conflict between what we're raised to see as 'normal' for our gender and then what we perceive to be normal once we're adults and a bit more 'edjumacated'. You see shows like Ally McBeal or even Scrubs where 'tough chicks' almost have to have their gentle femininity displayed at some point for fear of criticism. My favourite female character is therefore Lara Croft, who doesn't have time for that guff. She may have begun as a sexualised draw for a male gamer demographic, but she's ended with talent, self-possession and self-respect. There've been no obligatory 'weepy' scenes for her, no perpetual chase for a partner/husband, no unspoken need for sexual companionship - she just is and the rest of the world can go hang.
Of course, a world full of Terminator chicks would be a dull world indeed.
So, wanting our cake and eating it too would involve these self-reliant girls still being prone to softer thoughts/emotions... but it doesn't have to be quite so excessive as it currently is. I spent most of the last few Die Hards associating more gentle emotion with McClane than is probably healthy through the smallest of things. A word here, an expression there, a stalking of his daughter... If I can see a wealth of subtext in that testosterone-flick then maybe the problem is female characters being written 'too loudly'? I don't need to see them crying/crushing/angsting/fretting/PMSing. All I need is the smallest of hints and I can fill in the rest myself.
And, as Covarr says, a story that is about plot first and gender second is a good start.
Also, less obligatory romantic interests, please. I'm willing to beg.
This is a little incoherent, but:
I know there's a degree of conflict between what we're raised to see as 'normal' for our gender and then what we perceive to be normal once we're adults and a bit more 'edjumacated'. You see shows like Ally McBeal or even Scrubs where 'tough chicks' almost have to have their gentle femininity displayed at some point for fear of criticism. My favourite female character is therefore Lara Croft, who doesn't have time for that guff. She may have begun as a sexualised draw for a male gamer demographic, but she's ended with talent, self-possession and self-respect. There've been no obligatory 'weepy' scenes for her, no perpetual chase for a partner/husband, no unspoken need for sexual companionship - she just is and the rest of the world can go hang.
Of course, a world full of Terminator chicks would be a dull world indeed.
So, wanting our cake and eating it too would involve these self-reliant girls still being prone to softer thoughts/emotions... but it doesn't have to be quite so excessive as it currently is. I spent most of the last few Die Hards associating more gentle emotion with McClane than is probably healthy through the smallest of things. A word here, an expression there, a stalking of his daughter... If I can see a wealth of subtext in that testosterone-flick then maybe the problem is female characters being written 'too loudly'? I don't need to see them crying/crushing/angsting/fretting/PMSing. All I need is the smallest of hints and I can fill in the rest myself. And, as Covarr says, a story that is about plot first and gender second is a good start.
Also, less obligatory romantic interests, please. I'm willing to beg.
Superman always heals relevant to the plot, just push him closer to the sun and he might as well have not been hurt. In the few things I've ever seen play with WW she's never been immune to mind-control/illusions. She is most certainly not durable against projectiles, that's why they gave her the stupid armbands... or perhaps the switched it to keep the stupid bands whatever. She has all this training that doesn't matter because she doesn't fight skilled people just powerful ones, knowing the proper way to block a sword doesn't help against someone throwing fire at you.llagrok said:
Power is very important to being a serious hero regardless of the area of expertise. Batman is all crazy prepared, Supes is Supes in all things, but WW is just... there.
Yes, there are places where Wonder Woman's ideals would be considered radical and new but these are not places a movie about her is likely to be do well. That is at the heart of all of this when you look between the lines. If you cite money as the reason you won't make the product, it is generally because you don't think it will make money. Any of the companies who lack resources are capable of getting them should they desire to.TsunamiWombat said:
That's half the problem with Wonder Woman, if you look at "The Big Picture" aired today, she IS basically an empowerment message, and was almost always meant to be. Sadly, I like the new wonder-woman.... ISH. Meet us in the middle rather than having her as pure super hero or pure empowerment...Covarr said:
Like a book I read. Infinity Split. I love the author, but every line was basically trying to say "Humans aren't the only ones with feelings" over and over and over again. BEAUTIFUL concept, but it was so obvious that I had bruises from the book bashing its message into my face
It isn't an invisible ship.
It's transparent.
That is all.
OT: Bob's argument, while interesting, wasn't very convincing. I don't think her origin story is very good at all. Especially because it shits on Hercules.
It's transparent.
That is all.
OT: Bob's argument, while interesting, wasn't very convincing. I don't think her origin story is very good at all. Especially because it shits on Hercules.