Why didn't Doctor save Amy and Rory from the weeping angel?

[DudeistBelieve]

Was just watching a Youtube spoof where Batman calls the Doctor out on it and it really got me thinking.

When Doctor and Martha got blinked into the past, it was just a simple matter of getting the Tardis sent back to them to escape their fate. No fuss no muss, just a Timey Whimey detector that went DING! when there was stuff.

But then, same shit happens to Amy/Rory and suddenly the Doctor is all "I CAN'T SAVE YOU! IT'LL BE A FIXED POINT! NOOOO!!!"

Why is it all of a sudden a fixed point?

Whovians, I don't mean to insult your show, but NONE OF THIS SHIT MAKES SENSE

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

My fairly basic understanding is this- Random things in the Whoniverse (I'm not sure if that's a term, if it's not, you heard it here first) are fixed points, like Pompeii, and can't be interfered with. Somehow the Doctor can see which events are.

That said, it's all pretty contradictory. I remember a Christopher Eccleston era episode where Rose saves her dad from being run over, changing time and causing giant-time-judge-bat-bastards to rock up and start causing a ruckus. The episode also says that you're not supposed to come into contact with another version of yourself. The bat things are never heard from again and the 'don't touch yourself (giggity)' rule is forgotten about.

 

[Reed Spacer]

Because the Doctor is secretly a complete jerk.

 

[kurokotetsu]

Two things. The place and time they were sent to is said to be unstable, meaning that the Doctor can't travel there without the posibility of causing some serious problems in hte time-space continuum. Other, the Doctor has TImelord eyes, which show him the Fixed Points, unalterable moments in History, that trying to alter will result in the a similar thing happening anyway that doesn't change History (seen in the Waters of Mars). So Rory and AMy had to go back to that year.

Where I see a problem is that even if that specific event and time were unchangeable for these reasons, why couldn't the Doctor travel a year later and fetch them there. They didn't die immidiately, they lived for decades after, meaning he could go to another time, look for them, and return them to their time without much problems. And the same for any Weeping Angels victim, if the destination time and palce are known (which this case it was).

 

[Catfood220]

Because the Doctor is secretly a complete jerk.

And sometimes not so secretly.

As I understand it, when Amy and Rory jumped off the building it created a paradox that the Tardis couldn't get near, this is what prevented the Doctor from going back and saving them. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

The bigger question about that episode is, how the actual fuck did the Statue of Liberty walk around completely unnoticed by all?

 

[DJjaffacake]

Because Steven Moffat is a very hit and miss writer. The official reason is that all the messing around with time they did in 1937 New York means the TARDIS can't go back there, but that doesn't preclude it from going back to just outside New York 1937. But yeah, that was just generally not a good episode.

Captcha: Carry a trowel

 

[Gizmo1990]

Mostly because Moffat cannot write his way out of a wet paper bag. I honestly don't understand the love this guy gets from some people. With the exception of Blink (which I think is only ok) I have never been anything but bored with any episode he has writen. It was not much of a problem until he became show runner because before that he only had a say in his episodes but now, I honestly cannot think of a single episode since he took over I have enjoyed from start to finish.

That being said I was ok with how Amy and Rory were writen out but that is mainly because Rory really got on my nerves. I have never wanted a TV character to die as much as him with the exception of River bloody Song.

 

[Tanis]

I thought it was because Amy & Rory WERE the paradoxes?

Like, the TARDIS wouldn't ALLOW them to travel with her anymore.

 

[Albino Boo]

Dr Who, in its 50 years, has always been a show of minimal internal consistency. What the Tardis/Dr can do has always changed to suit the dramatic purpose of the writers. The show is intended as 40 minute early Saturday evening romp that is watched by a family together. Its aimed at a totally different demographic from the US sci fi shows, with all the rules and lore that comes with them. Basically, the only explanation you are ever going to is Amy and Rory became a fixed point in time. This part of the reason why the show has lasted so long, is because the abilities and even the character of the lead can change, which always leads to new dramatic possibilities.

 

[Reed Spacer]

Amy and Rory trapped living in the past
And now in the present they're both dead at last
Friends of the time lord who always hides his name
Killed by Weeping Angels and the Doctor's to blame

 

[CommanderL]

HE could have also sent river with the time vortex wrist watch and told her to pick them up I mean she went there to get the book so it was published and the thing about the graves river could plant fake graves a grave does not always mean a body I miss rory

 

[Pebkio]

I... am not disagreeing with you. I think you're mistaking two concepts here - this had nothing to do with "fixed points in time" and everything to do with "personal timelines". I'm sorry, did I say "you"? You're not to blame. This is all Steven "The Hack Writer" Moffat's fault.

Seriously, just ignore most of the shit that he calls writing... because HE'S GOING TO IGNORE IT TOO. I'm not kidding, this guy is the king of retcon. He can't stop. He's a got a condition. I'm getting off topic here.

---

The Doctor and Martha couln't avoid getting sent into the past because that event became a point in their personal timeline. Basically, the Doctor and Martha were sent back in time because they learned that they were sent back in time. In fact, it was obvious that they got to escape their timey-whimey fate.

Rory's death was a point in their timeline because they saw it on a headstone.

Erm... and then it was changed. Steven "The Hack Writer" Moffat divided by 0 when he invoked the "you can't change events in your personal timeline" concept in THE VERY SAME SCENE as they were changing events in their personal timeline. So, please, don't ask us to justify that idiot's ideas because even he can't.

But this brings up another point? Why, when dealing with the angels before, did Moffat let everything work out with Martha and the Doctor but arbitrarily kill off Amy and Rory? I think it's because Steven "The Hack Writer" Moffat can't get his lazy ass into a recasting booth without killing off the actor's character.

---

Or, to put it in the simplest way possible, in answer to your question: It's because Steven "The Hack Writer" Moffat is a terrible headwriter and should just stick to making one episode a year.

 

[kuros_overkill]

My understanding is that it was when Rory saw his own grave that sealed the deal (so to speak) - The instant he saw the graves their deaths became a fixed point in time. (and any attempt to change this would/did cause the paradox at the end of the episode)

- we have seen some one attempt to mess with a fixed point 3 prev. times in the series - (SPOILERS)


1 - Rose tries to save her dad - bat things show up in an attempt to "sterilize the wound" - The only way to heal the wound (in time) is for Roses dad to let himself get run over. - and things happen mostly the same as they did before
2 - the doctor attempts to save the lives of the first mars team. - despite his best effort, everything ends up happening almost the same way it did before. - and he gets chastised by both one of the mars team members, and the leader of the ood. 3 - River refuses to kill the doctor on a beach in Utah, and Time "just stopped", the doctor and River had an argument, and she ended up 'killing' him (spoiler, he got better) - and everything went back to normal

I think based on that even if the doctor DID try to save Amy and Rory, something would have happened that would end up with them stuck in the 30's again.

 

[gigastar]

The real reason is because the shows producers decided it was time for a new sidekick.

 

[Pebkio]

My understanding is that it was when Rory saw his own grave that sealed the deal (so to speak) - The instant he saw the graves their deaths became a fixed point in time. (and any attempt to change this would/did cause the paradox at the end of the episode)

- we have seen some one attempt to mess with a fixed point 3 prev. times in the series - (SPOILERS)


1 - Rose tries to save her dad - bat things show up in an attempt to "sterilize the wound" - The only way to heal the wound (in time) is for Roses dad to let himself get run over. - and things happen mostly the same as they did before
2 - the doctor attempts to save the lives of the first mars team. - despite his best effort, everything ends up happening almost the same way it did before. - and he gets chastised by both one of the mars team members, and the leader of the ood. 3 - River refuses to kill the doctor on a beach in Utah, and Time "just stopped", the doctor and River had an argument, and she ended up 'killing' him (spoiler, he got better) - and everything went back to normal

I think based on that even if the doctor DID try to save Amy and Rory, something would have happened that would end up with them stuck in the 30's again.

So... it was the will of the Force that they be dead together in the 1930s? I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to make fun of you but that was some mighty fine reaching you just did to justify a terrible epidode. I'm just saying...

 

[Ross Tuddin]

My thought was Why can't the Doctor go to Washington DC and that Amy & Rory could catch the Bus. The doctor could go that year or the next year. etc

 

[Blade_125]

My understanding is that it was when Rory saw his own grave that sealed the deal (so to speak) - The instant he saw the graves their deaths became a fixed point in time. (and any attempt to change this would/did cause the paradox at the end of the episode)

- we have seen some one attempt to mess with a fixed point 3 prev. times in the series - (SPOILERS)


1 - Rose tries to save her dad - bat things show up in an attempt to "sterilize the wound" - The only way to heal the wound (in time) is for Roses dad to let himself get run over. - and things happen mostly the same as they did before
2 - the doctor attempts to save the lives of the first mars team. - despite his best effort, everything ends up happening almost the same way it did before. - and he gets chastised by both one of the mars team members, and the leader of the ood. 3 - River refuses to kill the doctor on a beach in Utah, and Time "just stopped", the doctor and River had an argument, and she ended up 'killing' him (spoiler, he got better) - and everything went back to normal

I think based on that even if the doctor DID try to save Amy and Rory, something would have happened that would end up with them stuck in the 30's again.

So... it was the will of the Force that they be dead together in the 1930s? I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to make fun of you but that was some mighty fine reaching you just did to justify a terrible epidode. I'm just saying...

That isn't reaching, that is consistent with the rules (such as they are) of the series. Time isn't a line. It's more like a ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.... stuff.

 

[Pebkio]

My understanding is that it was when Rory saw his own grave that sealed the deal (so to speak) - The instant he saw the graves their deaths became a fixed point in time. (and any attempt to change this would/did cause the paradox at the end of the episode)

- we have seen some one attempt to mess with a fixed point 3 prev. times in the series - (SPOILERS)


1 - Rose tries to save her dad - bat things show up in an attempt to "sterilize the wound" - The only way to heal the wound (in time) is for Roses dad to let himself get run over. - and things happen mostly the same as they did before
2 - the doctor attempts to save the lives of the first mars team. - despite his best effort, everything ends up happening almost the same way it did before. - and he gets chastised by both one of the mars team members, and the leader of the ood. 3 - River refuses to kill the doctor on a beach in Utah, and Time "just stopped", the doctor and River had an argument, and she ended up 'killing' him (spoiler, he got better) - and everything went back to normal

I think based on that even if the doctor DID try to save Amy and Rory, something would have happened that would end up with them stuck in the 30's again.

Actually, I'd like to cover each of these things in turn because people are discussing the concepts a bit simplistically.

1 - A lot of people seem to forget that there was another event that caused time to go screwy. It wasn't that Rose changed the past, although that didn't help, it was that Rose and the Doctor were in the same event twice when the second Rose caused the paradox. This might seem like convoluted justification, but it actually took TWO pradoxes on top of each other to snap time a bit.

2 - I think it's time for us to agree that the "fixed point in time" thing is just some religious nonsense the Doctor believes. Most of the "fixed points" just turn out to be The Doctor causing the event and thus actually being in his personal timeline. This episode had the only example, to date, of a "fixed point" and really it was just an event that needed to happen... and not, as what was implied, fated to happen. The only reason Captain Brooks killed herself is because of how crazy arrogant the Doctor was behaving.

3 - This was a bad episode. I hate having to use it in any discussion. However, time started disintegrating because there were two "fixed points" happening at the same moment. The Doctor just went with the easier solution of erasing the fixed point in which he isn't shot. In all probablitlity, there was also the solution of erasing the fixed point in which he is shot. I actually thought that's what they were going to do, because that would've actually been clever. Instead they went with the whole "body double" thing. Fun fun.

 

[BabySinclair]

Dr Who time travel rules in a nutshell


The big thing in the Moffet era is that you can't know your own future. That same episode he hears that River breaks her arm trying to get free because that's what the account River wrote said she did. It's about creating a loop. Martha and the doctor had a playbook because that's what was written because that's what they said and did, so that's what was written, and so forth. Rory saw his death and dying in another way created a paradox. Then he saw his gravestone, preventing that death (by him getting killed again on another adventure or in another way that doesn't generate that grave) would stack a paradox on a paradox. That's probably not a good thing.