Why Do People Keep Saying We Need More Escapism?

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Lil devils x said:
It isn't just about " Technology= good" at all. Did you not see how lush, clean and green the earth was in numerous episodes? They chose to take care of plants, animals, soil, water.. everything rather than behave like grasshoppers and just consume everything in sight. I disagree that what they do is considered "morally wrong" in today's world, as they instead worked to find solutions to solve the problems of pollution and waste instead of just allowing it to become someone else's problem or hoarding resources even when in short supply they manage to show their humanity and share with those in need.

It is actually false that they have access to unlimited energy and resources as in a good number of episodes they had become dangerously low and were having to go to great lengths to obtain enough to survive. Replicators did not just create things out of nothing, they had to be supplied with resources to be able to create at all. If they were lacking matter, people were restricted from being able to replicate things that required those resources. More on those here:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/126563/where-do-replicators-get-their-material

As for their energy, they were constantly looking for Dilitium:
In the Star Trek fictional universe, dilithium is an invented material which serves as a controlling agent in the faster-than-light warp drive. In the original series, dilithium crystals were rare and could not be replicated, making the search for them a recurring plot element. According to a periodic table shown during a Next Generation episode, it has the chemical symbol Dt and the atomic number 87, which in reality belongs to francium.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilithium_(Star_Trek)

I agree Kirk had a point by cheating on the test, I also understand they have the test to help better prepare their Captains for the real life situations that can actually happen as a risk of flying around in spaceships. You should know that even the " best" people in Star Fleet failed the Psyche test, including Picard. Wesley did fail the test and was told he had to take it again the following year. Although he failed the test, he had overcome his fear that he would not be capable of choosing who to save if he was in a situation that required him to do so. It was more about Wesley overcoming his fear rather than about the test itself.
Yeah, I also saw how they used prison labour to do it. Sure, call it shades of colonial Australia's past, but frankly I feel as if merited to point it out. Moreover, hoarding what resources? The Federation has a tenth of the galaxy to itself. To put it into context, the asteroid belts and moons of Earth and Mars in our Solar system alone would grant 5 thousand years of current consumption. And that makes no adjustment for recycling technologies that are liable to exist given they can merely transform energy into matter of any number of desirable forms.

Star Trek is a socialist union because no one needs to give anything and no one can be left wanting ... arguably it would be communist if only for the fact that they literally have no need for communal ownership of land.

No one has to sacrifice anything, people can just spend their life going to university and being public researchers, or technicians, or explorers, or craftspeople. They literally want for nothing and don't require to have to give something. And the only reason why any of this is is because they have technological means to supplant the necessity of labour and capital.

But that's not utopian... when we talk of utopian we talk about what people value in human life. And clearly Star Trek's values of human life are not that high. It's a disturbingly militaristic society. Arguably it's technofascism. You have Starfleet having consolidated all foreign affairs, military, exploration, and the highest echelons of civil service and scientific endeavour ... everyone wears a fucking uniform, or they do not seem to belong to the unicameral-esque upper echelon of power.

Okay, dilithium crystals, whatever ... contrived plot device for contrivance sake ... but it matters not to civilian consumption. Merely for the generation and production of hyper-advanced warships apparently. And don't pretend they are not hyper-advanced warships.

Star Trek is less utopian than My Little Pony's Equestria, and that's a roughly late 18th century technological society ruled over by a benevolent dictator. They work the land together, it is built into their literal core of society that being happy is preferable to total productivity, and despite being constantly attacked by monstrous and subversive elements within and without, they don't seem to feel the need to change their society in order to meet the nature of these threats proactively.

Why is that utopian? Because it speaks to the fact that this society has definite messages about the value of their participationand their inherent worth as a sapient creature ... not simplybecause they have fancy doo-dads.

Let me remind you ... when they were deciding the fate of an entire sapient speicies of people everyone was wearing a Starfleet uniform. All of them were effectively general staff barring merely Kirk and Spock (and crew). That seem utopian to you? If you had swapped it out with people wearing military uniforms of Earth's yesteryear ... it would seem pretty fucking fascist to me.

Sure, I know some people that would touch themselves at night thinking of a military council dictating whatever twisted idea of a Fourth Reich 'higher society' ... but for the conventional person on the street they might lift up their hand and ask; "So where does our democratically elected representatives sit at the table? Maybe an independent public tribunal?You know ... I feel like the public should be aware of these decisions of possible genocide by proxy..."


Can you feel the utopianism? Let's just think of this hypothetical situation. Break it down. Let's say you knew none of these people ... you didn't know any of them from abar of soap. How would feel of a shadow government within a supposedly free society with elected officials, and basically the only people making decisions like these were your military caste?

Not a good feeling, right?

And this isn't the only example...
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Lil devils x said:
It isn't just about " Technology= good" at all. Did you not see how lush, clean and green the earth was in numerous episodes? They chose to take care of plants, animals, soil, water.. everything rather than behave like grasshoppers and just consume everything in sight. I disagree that what they do is considered "morally wrong" in today's world, as they instead worked to find solutions to solve the problems of pollution and waste instead of just allowing it to become someone else's problem or hoarding resources even when in short supply they manage to show their humanity and share with those in need.

It is actually false that they have access to unlimited energy and resources as in a good number of episodes they had become dangerously low and were having to go to great lengths to obtain enough to survive. Replicators did not just create things out of nothing, they had to be supplied with resources to be able to create at all. If they were lacking matter, people were restricted from being able to replicate things that required those resources. More on those here:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/126563/where-do-replicators-get-their-material

As for their energy, they were constantly looking for Dilitium:
In the Star Trek fictional universe, dilithium is an invented material which serves as a controlling agent in the faster-than-light warp drive. In the original series, dilithium crystals were rare and could not be replicated, making the search for them a recurring plot element. According to a periodic table shown during a Next Generation episode, it has the chemical symbol Dt and the atomic number 87, which in reality belongs to francium.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilithium_(Star_Trek)

I agree Kirk had a point by cheating on the test, I also understand they have the test to help better prepare their Captains for the real life situations that can actually happen as a risk of flying around in spaceships. You should know that even the " best" people in Star Fleet failed the Psyche test, including Picard. Wesley did fail the test and was told he had to take it again the following year. Although he failed the test, he had overcome his fear that he would not be capable of choosing who to save if he was in a situation that required him to do so. It was more about Wesley overcoming his fear rather than about the test itself.
Yeah, I also saw how they used prison labour to do it. Sure, call it shades of colonial Australia's past, but frankly I feel as if merited to point it out. Moreover, hoarding what resources? The Federation has a tenth of the galaxy to itself. To put it into context, the asteroid belts and moons of Earth and Mars in our Solar system alone would grant 5 thousand years of current consumption. And that makes no adjustment for recycling technologies that are liable to exist given they can merely transform energy into matter of any number of desirable forms.

Star Trek is a socialist union because no one needs to give anything and no one can be left wanting ... arguably it would be communist if only for the fact that they literally have no need for communal ownership of land.

No one has to sacrifice anything, people can just spend their life going to university and being public researchers, or technicians, or explorers, or craftspeople. They literally want for nothing and don't require to have to give something. And the only reason why any of this is is because they have technological means to supplant the necessity of labour and capital.

But that's not utopian... when we talk of utopian we talk about what people value in human life. And clearly Star Trek's values of human life are not that high. It's a disturbingly militaristic society. Arguably it's technofascism. You have Starfleet having consolidated all foreign affairs, military, exploration, and the highest echelons of civil service and scientific endeavour ... everyone wears a fucking uniform, or they do not seem to belong to the unicameral-esque upper echelon of power.

Okay, dilithium crystals, whatever ... contrived plot device for contrivance sake ... but it matters not to civilian consumption. Merely for the generation and production of hyper-advanced warships apparently. And don't pretend they are not hyper-advanced warships.

Star Trek is less utopian than My Little Pony's Equestria, and that's a roughly late 18th century technological society ruled over by a benevolent dictator. They work the land together, it is built into their literal core of society that being happy is preferable to total productivity, and despite being constantly attacked by monstrous and subversive elements within and without, they don't seem to feel the need to change their society in order to meet the nature of these threats proactively.

Why is that utopian? Because it speaks to the fact that this society has definite messages about the value of their participationand their inherent worth as a sapient creature ... not simplybecause they have fancy doo-dads.

Let me remind you ... when they were deciding the fate of an entire sapient speicies of people everyone was wearing a Starfleet uniform. All of them were effectively general staff barring merely Kirk and Spock. That seem utopian to you? If you had swapped it out with people wearing military uniforms of Earth's yesteryear ... it would seem pretty fucking fascist to me.

Sure, I know some people that would touch themselves at night thinking of a military council dictating whatever twisted idea of a Fourth Reich 'higher society' ... but for the conventional person on the street they might lift up their hand and ask; "So where does our democratically elected representatives sit at the table? Maybe an independent public tribunal?You know ... I feel like the public should be aware of these decisions..."
I think you are misunderstanding a good deal about Star Trek, value placed on all life is at the core of their beliefs, only members of starfleet wear uniforms, people do work and contribute to society and there was an episode on earth where it appeared to be people working on an organic farm. Yes, people DO sacrifice to contribute to society in a good variety of ways. Simply because people are not overly consumed with materialism and have eliminated the need for money does not mean they do not work, sacrifice or contribute to society. Star Trek has repeatedly shown the value placed on individual and group efforts and the focus is on how human ingenuity and will overcomes adversity, not their gadgets. It appears you need to watch more Star Trek if you think that they even remotely focus their gadgets and not the people as that is the opposite of much of the core theme throughout the numerous Star Trek series.

If you noticed the Federation's various Councils are not all wearing starfleet uniforms because they are not all starfleet?



I think you are mistaking the abundance of Starfleet being present (due to this being stories about their voyages) as being representative of leadership or society as a whole, but that is not the case. Most of the people on earth are not in Starfleet, nor are most of the alien societies they ally with. Most of the crew present in movies and shows are not " general staff" they all have titles, positions and jobs and you follow their personal lives, promotions, transfers ect as well throughout multiple series.

The federation is a constitutional democracy, not a military dictatorship, simply because you are following life on a "ship" does not in any way mean that is representative of all life at the time, and they show how much different it is when they are on earth. It is like when those on a submarine that has been out for months finally get to come home. Everyone in Starfleet however, chose to be there and can leave anytime they wish as service in Star Fleet is completely voluntary. You are making it out to be like they don't have a choice or have other's will imposed upon them and that is no the case at all. Kirk, chose to get into Trouble and take his reprimand instead of resigning and leaving. He still could have left at any point in time. It was a choice. Except of course when he was captured by alien races and then that was entirely different.

EDIT: In addition, the video you posted was a starfleet meeting about what to do about their own bases and such in regards to the Klingons, who previously almost entirely exterminated the Federation in the past, is now in crisis. The military did not decide what they get to do here, it was apparent from what Spock stated that this was a Federation council decision and this overrides the military admiral who wants to destroy them instead. Kirks response to being forced to offer to help them is due to this if you understood the history behind this as this was after the Klingon war. Klingons, if you are aware of the lore, Were ONLY Hostile and attacked and exterminated any non Klingon in their path, peaceful or not. Being peaceful at all was an invitation to be exterminated by the Klingons, as they ONLY respected anyone who inflicted great harm upon them first.

This changes over the course of time, ( a long time at that) but after their own Crisis, they become more willing to negotiate as negotiating with anyone prior to that was nonexistent. The video shows what happened when the news that the council decided that they were going to try and help the Klingons was delivered to Starfleet, and although Kirk and the Admiral protested, they could refuse to do so and resign if they so wanted to if they really felt that strongly about it. They consider being there being an Honor and a choice, and they choose to follow the orders of the council instead regardless of if they agree with them or not. That is no different than congress giving the military orders. Except in US military, there are punishments if you choose to leave the Military, Starfleet does not have those same types of punishments if one wishes to resign, you are only punished for actual crimes.

Ugh.. I think my nerd is showing... Yes, it is actually embarrassing that I know all this. My friends would seriously give me shat for this. ROFL XD
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Lil devils x said:
I think you are misunderstanding a good deal about Star Trek, value placed on all life is at the core of their beliefs, only members of starfleet wear uniforms, people do work and contribute to society and there was an episode on earth where it appeared to be people working on an organic farm. Yes, people DO sacrifice to contribute to society in a good variety of ways. Simply because people are not overly consumed with materialism and have eliminated the need for money does not mean they do not work, sacrifice or contribute to society. Star Trek has repeatedly shown the value placed on individual and group efforts and the focus is on how human ingenuity and will overcomes adversity, not their gadgets. It appears you need to watch more Star Trek if you think that they even remotely focus their gadgets and not the people as that is the opposite of much of the core theme throughout the numerous Star Trek series.
But none of this is what I wrote, I said they don't need to contribute. People in capitalist everywhere still contribute time and resources for no personal gain. In fact we've even isolated and recorded brain activity when people do charitable deeds and perform prosocial behaviour ... we know what charity and prosocial behaviour looks like even in Capitalist Wherever. And no ... the Federation only machinates a facade of it. It is repeatedly shown that the Federation only cares about being perceived as a beneficiary to its people.

The Federation is not a hugfest.

Kirk still got almost expelled for the Kobayashi Maru stunt, despite even doing everything that current military officers are instructed. Hell even Great War era generals had been writing treatises on soldiery during the times when human life was treated as so incredibly cheap a thing, and still treated concepts concerning the wellbeing of soldiers better than Starfleet seems to express.

The writings of General Sir John Monash ... and he was knighted on the field of battle. A privilege that hadn't been recorded for 3 centuries before him, and never since. He had a far more humanist opinion on the value of life than Starfleet seems to display.

You wrote it up as if 'preparing soldiers for the dangers...'

No, clearly it wasn't preparing them for anything. It was literally an exercise telling soldiers to die with honour. No one in the military would tell that to another soul... not unless you were Japanese, and Imperial Japan wasn't exactly the good guys. That is what makes Kirk and his actions good. He upended the table and told Starfleet, "That's wrong. Fuck you."

If you noticed the Federation's various Councils are not all wearing starfleet uniforms because they are not all starfleet?


And all of them conspicuously absent when Starfleet held a panel discussion about whether they should just let genocide by proxy happen. Once again, without even personal interpretation, the shows and movies themselves routinely show the Federation as not exactly a nice entity. It can in fact be a ruthless war machine when it chooses to be. In fact, they even made that concept alone into one of the movies...

I think you are mistaking the abundance of Starfleet being present (due to this being stories about their voyages) as being representative of leadership or society as a whole, but that is not the case. Most of the people on earth are not in Starfleet, not are most of the alien societies they ally with. Most of the crew present in movies and shows are not " general staff" they all have titles, positions and jobs and you follow their personal lives, promotions, transfers ect as well throughout multiple series.

The federation is a constitutional democracy, not a military dictatorship, simply because you are following life on a "ship" does not in any way mean that is representative of all life at the time, and they show how much different it is when they are on earth. It is like when those on a submarine that has been out for months finally get to come home. Everyone in Starfleet however, chose to be there and can leave anytime they wish as service in Star Fleet is completely voluntary. You are making it out to be like they don't have a choice or have other's will imposed upon them and that is no the case at all. Kirk, chose to get into Trouble and take his reprimand instead of resigning and leaving. He still could have left at any point in time. It was a choice. Except of course when he was captured by alien races and then that was entirely different.
And? Does that somehow make it better ...? To put it curtly Starfleet does not represent the bulk of humanity's employment, no. But then again, it certainly represents a significant portion of the people actually invested with power. The people commanding people to die are the same people that set general foreign policy. They end up also setting general civil administration.

Sisko literally goes from explorer, to soldier, to civil administrator and diplomat, manages a civilian-appropriated waystation, and straight back to soldier ... Clearly Starfleet represents a core political agent of the Federation. Clearly their numbers are sufficiently large enough to cater all these roles, to sufficiently replace formerly civil authorities of branches of government operations.

No one elected him, he was not appointed by a servant of the people, he was not appointed by an elected official, he was appointed by Starfleet.

And let me remind you ... this is what fascists do with their governments...
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Lil devils x said:
I think you are misunderstanding a good deal about Star Trek, value placed on all life is at the core of their beliefs, only members of starfleet wear uniforms, people do work and contribute to society and there was an episode on earth where it appeared to be people working on an organic farm. Yes, people DO sacrifice to contribute to society in a good variety of ways. Simply because people are not overly consumed with materialism and have eliminated the need for money does not mean they do not work, sacrifice or contribute to society. Star Trek has repeatedly shown the value placed on individual and group efforts and the focus is on how human ingenuity and will overcomes adversity, not their gadgets. It appears you need to watch more Star Trek if you think that they even remotely focus their gadgets and not the people as that is the opposite of much of the core theme throughout the numerous Star Trek series.
But none of this is what I wrote, I said they don't need to contribute. People in capitalist everywhere still contribute time and resources for no personal gain. In fact we've even isolated and recorded brain activity when people do charitable deeds and perform prosocial behaviour ... we know what charity and prosocial behaviour looks like even in Capitalist Wherever. And no ... the Federation only machinates a facade of it. It is repeatedly shown that the Federation only cares about being perceived as a beneficiary to its people.

The Federation is not a hugfest.

Kirk still got almost expelled for the Kobayashi Maru stunt, despite even doing everything that current military officers are instructed. Hell even Great War era generals had been writing treatises on soldiery about during the times when human life was treated as so incredibly cheap a thing still treated concepts concerning the wellbeing of soldier better than Starfleet does.

The writings of General Sir John Monash ... and he was knighted on the field of battle. A privilege that hadn't been recorded for 3 centuries before him, and never since. He had a far more humanist opinion on the value of human life than Starfleet seems to display.

You wrote it up as if 'preparing soldiers for the dangers...'

No, clearly it wasn't preparing them for anything. It was literally an exercise telling soldiers to die with honour. No one in the military would tell that to another soul... not unless you were Japanese, and Imperial Japan wasn't exactly the good guys.

If you noticed the Federation's various Councils are not all wearing starfleet uniforms because they are not all starfleet?


And all of them conspicuously absent when Starfleet held a panel discussion about whether they should just let genocide by proxy happen. Once again, without even personal interpretation, the shows and movies themselves routinely show the Federation as not exactly a nice entity. It can in fact be a ruthless war machine when it chooses to be. In fact, they even made that concept alone into one of the movies...

I think you are mistaking the abundance of Starfleet being present (due to this being stories about their voyages) as being representative of leadership or society as a whole, but that is not the case. Most of the people on earth are not in Starfleet, not are most of the alien societies they ally with. Most of the crew present in movies and shows are not " general staff" they all have titles, positions and jobs and you follow their personal lives, promotions, transfers ect as well throughout multiple series.

The federation is a constitutional democracy, not a military dictatorship, simply because you are following life on a "ship" does not in any way mean that is representative of all life at the time, and they show how much different it is when they are on earth. It is like when those on a submarine that has been out for months finally get to come home. Everyone in Starfleet however, chose to be there and can leave anytime they wish as service in Star Fleet is completely voluntary. You are making it out to be like they don't have a choice or have other's will imposed upon them and that is no the case at all. Kirk, chose to get into Trouble and take his reprimand instead of resigning and leaving. He still could have left at any point in time. It was a choice. Except of course when he was captured by alien races and then that was entirely different.
And? Does that somehow make it better ...? To put it curtly Starfleet does not represent the bulk of humanity's employment, no. But then again, it certainly represents a significant portion of the people actually invested with power. The people commanding people to die are the same people that set general foreign policy. They end up also setting general civil administration.

Sisko literally goes from explorer, to soldier, to civil administrator and diplomat, manages a civilian-appropriated waystation, and straight back to soldier ... Clearly Starfleet represents a core political agent of the Federation. Clearly their numbers are sufficiently large enough to cater all these roles, to sufficiently replace formerly civil authorities of branches of governments operations.

No one elected him, he was not appointed by a servant of the people, he was not appointed by an elected official, he was appointed by Starfleet.

And let me remind you ... this is what fascists do with their governments...
I added to my post above to address your video addition. Of course there was no one other than Starfleet at that meeting, it was in starfleet headquarters. It also appears that the decisions were made prior to that meeting, that meeting appeared to be existing to inform them of the decisions that were already made prior by the duly elected officials. They were allowed to voice their opinions and opposition, but it was clear their roles were already decided for them. SO no, that was not actually a meeting about whether or not they should let genocide happen, That had to have already been established prior to the council deciding to make Kirk deliver their offer of peace and assistance. I think you are misunderstanding what was actually taking place there.

In addition, DS:9 is an actual military base, one that is extremely isolated at that. Of course what goes on there is militarized as it is only a military base and not representative of society or the structure of government at all. That is why none of what happens there really applies to the rest of society. What happens there really does not apply anywhere else as it is as separate from the rest of society as one can get. GS:9 and Voyager are set as being " apart from society" rather than be representative of it as they are isolated from everyone and everything else. You would expect military bases to be militarized, but that has no reflection on the government or the society at large as that is comparing apples to oranges.
 

Ninjamedic

New member
Dec 8, 2009
2,569
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Sisko literally goes from explorer, to soldier, to civil administrator and diplomat, manages a civilian-appropriated waystation, and straight back to soldier ...
In both cases of being a soldier, one was an emergency against a near unstoppable emotionless and completely unreasonable hivemind that would have ravaged the entire alpha quadrant if not stopped, and the second was against a genocidal expansionist power that had already demonstrated what it would have done if it wasn't stopped.

SECTION REDACTED AS IT WAS WHAT ADDENDUM WAS SAYING



I;m with Devils on this one, we only deal with Starfleet as the shows a Space Opera, so we're naturally going to see the world via John Wayne of Horatio Hornblower. Also we do see what people are capable of through guest characters and the like, the idealism is in how Starfleet is free to aloow so many resources and time in manners that aren't just cynical economics or selfishly geo-political. Not everything is spick and span, but it's at it's best when it shows how we can tackle those problems.

At least, until Discovery fucked it all up...
 

Ninjamedic

New member
Dec 8, 2009
2,569
0
0
Lil devils x said:
In Star Trek Discovery, however, there were clear violations, but it's purpose was not the same as original Star Trek, due to it is presumed to show why the Prime Directive was so important in the first place and how those things came to be.
And what a fuckup it was at doing that.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Ninjamedic said:
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Sisko literally goes from explorer, to soldier, to civil administrator and diplomat, manages a civilian-appropriated waystation, and straight back to soldier ...
In both cases of being a soldier, one was an emergency against a near unstoppable emotionless and completely unreasonable hivemind that would have ravaged the entire alpha quadrant if not stopped, and the second was against a genocidal expansionist power that had already demonstrated what it would have done if it wasn't stopped.

And even then, the implications you bring up are repeatedly explored throughout DS9, in particular with Admiral Leyton and his attempts to overthrow the Federation Council. Sisko, Kirk and Picard are repeatedly being shown to be acting within confines, in most cases it can be inferred the council is giving the main orders and the Admiral Of The Week represents their will.

At least, until Discovery fucked it all up...
How does Star Trek Discovery F it all up? It exists before all that happens and is supposed to show WHY the prime directive and working with others became so important in the first place.
 

Ninjamedic

New member
Dec 8, 2009
2,569
0
0
Lil devils x said:
How does Star Trek Discovery F it all up? It exists before all that happens and is supposed to show WHY the prime directive and working with others became so important in the first place.
That's exactly the problem though. It doesn't do that, instead rewriting the Klingons into being space jihadists with no depth into their motives beyond the most superficial. The series finale ends up being an endorsement of US regime change (and that's not exactly gone well recently now has it?), and Ameri-Centric geo-politics.

The show opens with them trying to figure ways to bypass the Directive for gods sake, and jumps into the most contrived setup for the Klingon War they could have made.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Lil devils x said:
I added to my post above to address your video addition. Of course there was no one other than Starfleet at that meeting, it was in starfleet headquarters. It also appears that the decisions were made prior to that meeting, that meeting appeared to be existing to inform them of the decisions that were already made prior by the duly elected officials. They were allowed to voice their opinions and opposition, but it was clear their roles were already decided for them. SO no, that was not actually a meeting about whether or not they should let genocide happen, That had to have already been established prior to the council deciding to make Kirk deliver their offer of peace and assistance. I think you are misunderstanding what was actually taking place there.

In addition, DS:9 is an actual military base, one that is extremely isolated at that. Of course what goes on there is militarized as it is only a military base and not representative of society or the structure of government at all. That is why none of what happens there really applies to the rest of society. What happens there really does not apply anywhere else as it is as separate from the rest of society as one can get.
Certainly it was a debrief, but it's not exactly without precedent. Moreover I don't think you were actually listening to what was being said. A Vulcan ambassador approached Starfleet. They said nothing about this being decided by Federation representatives. The whole reason why people are giving their input is because no one else had approached them, and the insinuation is that it was Starfleet's ballgame and they wanted to keep this secret from the public.

Secondly, it was provably not a military base. It was an refinery station and forced labour camp. If it were a 'military base' just what the metric fuck are Federation personnel doing running it? It's not their turf ... the Federation just basically colonized it and essentially use it as an embassy and trade station. They spend no shortage of time pointing that out in the first few episodes that its capabilities aren't exactly strong, and even by the time the war with the Dominion kicks up, it still maintains a civilian role.

It is no more impressive than the only other Cardassian space station featured on the show. And that was built in the middle of seemingly nowhere.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Ninjamedic said:
In both cases of being a soldier, one was an emergency against a near unstoppable emotionless and completely unreasonable hivemind that would have ravaged the entire alpha quadrant if not stopped, and the second was against a genocidal expansionist power that had already demonstrated what it would have done if it wasn't stopped.
And yet, even in our living past, in our nation's various darkest hours ... we still fight the desperate urge of giving diplomats and scientists military ranks, military uniforms and warships.

I;m with Devils on this one, we only deal with Starfleet as the shows a Space Opera, so we're naturally going to see the world via John Wayne of Horatio Hornblower. Also we do see what people are capable of through guest characters and the like, the idealism is in how Starfleet is free to aloow so many resources and time in manners that aren't just cynical economics or selfishly geo-political. Not everything is spick and span, but it's at it's best when it shows how we can tackle those problems.

At least, until Discovery fucked it all up...
I agree ... Star Trek shouldn't be taken too seriously.Which is precisely why itshouldn't actually be called 'utopian' ... because clearly it's not, and I doubt from the many examples within the show whether we would actually really want to live in it beyond merely the lovely technology. I am willing to bet if you gave even a relatively socially conscious capitalist nation all of that lovely tech, we'd probably end up with a similarly decent society all without having to consolidate political power into the handful of badly dressed people.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Lil devils x said:
I added to my post above to address your video addition. Of course there was no one other than Starfleet at that meeting, it was in starfleet headquarters. It also appears that the decisions were made prior to that meeting, that meeting appeared to be existing to inform them of the decisions that were already made prior by the duly elected officials. They were allowed to voice their opinions and opposition, but it was clear their roles were already decided for them. SO no, that was not actually a meeting about whether or not they should let genocide happen, That had to have already been established prior to the council deciding to make Kirk deliver their offer of peace and assistance. I think you are misunderstanding what was actually taking place there.

In addition, DS:9 is an actual military base, one that is extremely isolated at that. Of course what goes on there is militarized as it is only a military base and not representative of society or the structure of government at all. That is why none of what happens there really applies to the rest of society. What happens there really does not apply anywhere else as it is as separate from the rest of society as one can get.
Certainly it was a debrief, but it's not exactly without precedent. Moreover I don't think you were actually listening to what was being said. A Vulcan ambassador approached Starfleet. They said nothing about this being decided by Federation representatives. The whole reason why people are giving their input is because no one else had approached them, and the insinuation is that it was Starfleet's ballgame and they wanted to keep this secret from the public.

Secondly, it was provably not a military base. It was an refinery station and forced labour camp. If it were a 'military base' just what the metric fuck are Federation personnel doing running it? It's not their turf ... the Federation just basically colonized it and essentially use it as a embassy and trade station. They spend no shortage of time pointing that out in the first few episodes that its capabilities aren't exactly strong, and even by the time the war with the Dominion kicks up, it still maintains a civilian role.

It is no more impressive than the only other Cardassian space station featured on the show. In fact that are of the exact same dimensions if I recall correctly.
In understanding how Starfleet works, you also understand that nothing happens independent of one another when it concerns top brass. It is not possible due to federation and starfleet procedures for this to not have been addressed by the council prior to Spock addressing it at the meeting, unless their meeting was actually a violation of procedure, which is doubtful.

Yes, DS:9 is a military base, yes it started out as a mining station but was an actual military base:
Deep Space Nine becomes a key military base for the Federation in the Dominion War, and is assigned the starship USS Defiant to aid in its protection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Ninjamedic said:
Lil devils x said:
How does Star Trek Discovery F it all up? It exists before all that happens and is supposed to show WHY the prime directive and working with others became so important in the first place.
That's exactly the problem though. It doesn't do that, instead rewriting the Klingons into being space jihadists with no depth into their motives beyond the most superficial. The series finale ends up being an endorsement of US regime change (and that's not exactly gone well recently now has it?), and Ameri-Centric geo-politics.

The show opens with them trying to figure ways to bypass the Directive for gods sake, and jumps into the most contrived setup for the Klingon War they could have made.
I didn't see the finale that way at all really, and that is the first I have heard that POV on it. What happened when they violated the prime directive though? As far as I have seen every time they tried to break the rules or ignore the prime directive a whole lot of bad happened. Maybe that is just it and these are showing the events that they learned from rather than an endorsement of doing bad things.

EDIT: Although the Klingons are not as well written as the next generation, you have to admit the early klingons in the original series were written far worse. This was only first season though, they still have time to develop them further, hopefully they will.

Who can forget this mess?

STill pretty funny though lacking any real character depth.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Lil devils x said:
In understanding how Starfleet works, you also understand that nothing happens independent of one another when it concerns top brass. It is not possible due to federation and starfleet procedures for this to not have been addressed by the council prior to Spock addressing it at the meeting, unless their meeting was actually a violation of procedure, which is doubtful.
Yeah, geeze ... it's almost as if you consolidate ridiculous powers into a singular all purpose branch of the government that suddenly you get a problem about power consolidation. Who da thunk it? It's almost as if the Federation is broken and wouldn't work in reality...

Yes, DS:9 is a military base, yes it started out as a mining station but was an actual military base:
Even though it's clearly not. It is quite clearly a trading station. For starters it's not even Federation space ... are you telling me they just occupied it? Doesn't seem very neighbourly ... oh that's right, that's my argument.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Lil devils x said:
In understanding how Starfleet works, you also understand that nothing happens independent of one another when it concerns top brass. It is not possible due to federation and starfleet procedures for this to not have been addressed by the council prior to Spock addressing it at the meeting, unless their meeting was actually a violation of procedure, which is doubtful.
Yeah, geeze ... it's almost as if you consolidate ridiculous powers into a singular all purpose branch of the government that suddenly you get a problem about power consolidation. Who da thunk it? It's almost as if the Federation is broken and wouldn't work in reality...

Yes, DS:9 is a military base, yes it started out as a mining station but was an actual military base:
Even though it's clearly not. It is quite clearly a trading station. For starters it's not even Federation space ... are you telling me they just occupied it? Doesn't seem very neighbourly ... oh that's right, that's my argument.
It is pretty much like the the US having military bases in other nations all over the world, they do, even when it is not their space. It wasn't neighborly, they did occupied it during the Dominion war, which was anything but neighborly.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Lil devils x said:
It is pretty much like the the US having military bases in other nations all over the world, they do, even when it is not their space. It wasn't neighborly, they did occupied it during the Dominion war, which was anything but neighborly.
.... I really don't need you arguing my points for me. I was saying before, hardly utopian. Equestria has the Federation beat. And that is a literal dictatorship... well technically a monarchy, and Celestia does actually have bureaucrats, and popular consent to rule. Once again, 'utopian' comes down to the values we place on human life and social participation ... the Federation has more than frequently been shown not to have a high opinion of either when it gets in their way.

Just because they've had the fortune of big bads to cover up their immorality doesn't make it less questionable whether they actually stand for the values they espouse.

It has nothing to do with the level of technology ... because the U.S. is also still a tech powerhouse compared to other possible competitors. Doesn't mean I want to live there or be ruled by it. I quite like my little corner of the world, or at least how it could be by its own sovereignty.

I would also much rather a commander who read and inculcated the ideas of soldiery by people like Sir John Monash rather than anybody who died with honour for the Kobayashi Maru. Because, you know ... those guys are fuckwits by today's standards... and those of the Great War.

As I was saying ... values of human life and social participation. That's the basis of utopianism. Not merely technology. You can talk any cyberpunk setting ... they have cures for cancers, they have amazing access to technology, totally don't want our society to become a dystopian technojunkie slum.

The capacity to simply cure something, they capacity to simply do away with pollution ... I mean that's great. But am I to ignorea militarized hierarchy of a political entity that celebrates an unelected officer caste as if central to its own governance?

No. I think we can do better ... even in a non-utopian world.
 

Cicada 5

Elite Member
May 1, 2020
1,262
183
68
Country
Nigeria
Ninjamedic said:
Lil devils x said:
How does Star Trek Discovery F it all up? It exists before all that happens and is supposed to show WHY the prime directive and working with others became so important in the first place.
That's exactly the problem though. It doesn't do that, instead rewriting the Klingons into being space jihadists with no depth into their motives beyond the most superficial. The series finale ends up being an endorsement of US regime change (and that's not exactly gone well recently now has it?), and Ameri-Centric geo-politics.

The show opens with them trying to figure ways to bypass the Directive for gods sake, and jumps into the most contrived setup for the Klingon War they could have made.
Discovery's depiction of the Klingons is pretty much in line with the rest of the franchise. Worf was always the exception to the rule.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Apr 14, 2020
5,184
173
68
I don't know. Do you have more contact with people other than your usual online group?

Also, not everyone likes Disney.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Canadamus Prime said:
Silentpony said:
I think media and fiction in general have gotten really dark, and it makes people feel uncomfortable and defeats the purpose of escapism.
Like: Man I sure am depressed about the stories of illegal immigrant girls being sexually assaulted at the border, I need to relax by watching Games of Thrones were underage girls are raped on screen.
Or
Man, Campus rape is a real problem. I'll play House Party, where the main quest is to drug a girl at a party and then blackmail her to stripping and blowing you for the antidote.

Now there are plenty of alternatives and those specific examples, but over-all it does feel like fictional stories have gotten as dark or darker than real life and that's a worrying trend. Imagine having to go to work on Monday to escape the depression you feel watching the latest GoT episode.
If that is what they are talking about then I kinda agree. Entertainment has gotten kinda dark and miserable. And I really hate dark and miserable.
I'm with you. I watch movies or play games or read books to feel excitement and hope, not just depression and misery. Life is terrible enough without inviting even more darkness in during your relaxation time.

For example I can't watch torture-porn movies. Saw, Hostile, the Purge, etc...even if the premise is they're bad people getting justice, its just 2 hours of people being graphically tortured and I refuse to invite those memories in.

Likewise those 'based off a true story' movies about the single mother, whose husband died in Iraq, getting raped by her boss and her struggle with depression that leads to her loosing her kids, her daughter goes to foster care where she is raped, and her son dies from a drug overdose, and the mother 25+ years later finally gets her life back on track and buys that dress she's always wanted. 80+ Oscars, all the awards, Jenny McVaren was great as the mother, etc...
Absolutely no fucking way. Its so fucking depressing.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Silentpony said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Silentpony said:
I think media and fiction in general have gotten really dark, and it makes people feel uncomfortable and defeats the purpose of escapism.
Like: Man I sure am depressed about the stories of illegal immigrant girls being sexually assaulted at the border, I need to relax by watching Games of Thrones were underage girls are raped on screen.
Or
Man, Campus rape is a real problem. I'll play House Party, where the main quest is to drug a girl at a party and then blackmail her to stripping and blowing you for the antidote.

Now there are plenty of alternatives and those specific examples, but over-all it does feel like fictional stories have gotten as dark or darker than real life and that's a worrying trend. Imagine having to go to work on Monday to escape the depression you feel watching the latest GoT episode.
If that is what they are talking about then I kinda agree. Entertainment has gotten kinda dark and miserable. And I really hate dark and miserable.
I'm with you. I watch movies or play games or read books to feel excitement and hope, not just depression and misery. Life is terrible enough without inviting even more darkness in during your relaxation time.

For example I can't watch torture-porn movies. Saw, Hostile, the Purge, etc...even if the premise is they're bad people getting justice, its just 2 hours of people being graphically tortured and I refuse to invite those memories in.

Likewise those 'based off a true story' movies about the single mother, whose husband died in Iraq, getting raped by her boss and her struggle with depression that leads to her loosing her kids, her daughter goes to foster care where she is raped, and her son dies from a drug overdose, and the mother 25+ years later finally gets her life back on track and buys that dress she's always wanted. 80+ Oscars, all the awards, Jenny McVaren was great as the mother, etc...
Absolutely no fucking way. Its so fucking depressing.
I agree, life is honestly too short to have it filled with so many terrible memories. Reality gives us more than enough as it is. I cry at work due to my chosen career, it can be very rough. That is why the suicide rate for those in my field is so very high. I cry when reading the news because it is so terrible for people to go through such things when they can be prevented. Why would I then want to constantly be exposed to these horrors in fiction as well? I don't, I want to be inspired, to have hope and to feel happiness to help remind me it is worth putting forth the effort to overcome life's difficulties in order to accomplish great things and to help others do so as well. I see the promotion of so much negativity as counterproductive to that.